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01-11-2019, 04:34 PM
Question about god...
If you concede the premise of outside of time for the sake of the discussion, 'before' doesn't really apply, as before requires time. So it'd have to be some sort of extra dimension that God is in that contains our existence? I've seen some stuff that might sort of apply to this, like a block universe I think it was? I think Evie has talked about this before somewhere? Where all time exists at the same time, and we're at different locations in the block.
So if you have the block containing our time and existence, something outside of that block could exist without change throughout all of it. I dunno. Maybe if God is everything, some god also exists inside our block and outside the block?
My point being, once you go along with the premise of outside of time, you can start coming up with all sorts of weird stuff.
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01-11-2019, 04:35 PM
Question about god...
Theistic thinking is weird enough without the need to add more to it.
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01-11-2019, 04:49 PM
Question about god...
(01-11-2019, 04:34 PM)jerryg Wrote: If you concede the premise of outside of time for the sake of the discussion, 'before' doesn't really apply, as before requires time. So it'd have to be some sort of extra dimension that God is in that contains our existence? I've seen some stuff that might sort of apply to this, like a block universe I think it was? I think Evie has talked about this before somewhere? Where all time exists at the same time, and we're at different locations in the block.
So if you have the block containing our time and existence, something outside of that block could exist without change throughout all of it. I dunno. Maybe if God is everything, some god also exists inside our block and outside the block?
My point being, once you go along with the premise of outside of time, you can start coming up with all sorts of weird stuff.
You want weird?
Multidimensional time.
Mathematically, it should work well... But I can't even begin to imagine how that would work in reality.
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01-11-2019, 04:51 PM
Question about god...
(01-11-2019, 04:49 PM)pocaracas Wrote: You want weird?
Multidimensional time.
Mathematically, it should work well... But I can't even begin to imagine how that would work in reality.
That's the thing, theists aren't properly connected to reality to understand precisely what works in its favor.
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01-11-2019, 04:53 PM
Question about god...
(01-11-2019, 04:49 PM)pocaracas Wrote: (01-11-2019, 04:34 PM)jerryg Wrote: If you concede the premise of outside of time for the sake of the discussion, 'before' doesn't really apply, as before requires time. So it'd have to be some sort of extra dimension that God is in that contains our existence? I've seen some stuff that might sort of apply to this, like a block universe I think it was? I think Evie has talked about this before somewhere? Where all time exists at the same time, and we're at different locations in the block.
So if you have the block containing our time and existence, something outside of that block could exist without change throughout all of it. I dunno. Maybe if God is everything, some god also exists inside our block and outside the block?
My point being, once you go along with the premise of outside of time, you can start coming up with all sorts of weird stuff.
You want weird?
Multidimensional time.
Mathematically, it should work well... But I can't even begin to imagine how that would work in reality.
I still can't wrap my head around plain ole relativity. I just accept that time is a fucked up phenomenon that is always going to be beyond my comprehension.
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01-11-2019, 04:54 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-11-2019, 04:54 PM by jerryg.)
Question about god...
(01-11-2019, 04:35 PM)Phaedrus Wrote: Theistic thinking is weird enough without the need to add more to it.
You know there are some rather bright theists out in the world? Probably not as bright as you obviously, but a couple of them are capable of doing a bit of math and science.
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01-11-2019, 04:57 PM
Question about god...
(01-11-2019, 04:54 PM)jerryg Wrote: You know there are some rather bright theists out in the world? Probably not as bright as you obviously, but a couple of them are capable of doing a bit of math and science.
I'm not bright. I'm just aware.
Smart theists does not discount the stupidity of the belief or the extent to which that belief is held in the theistic daily life, however.
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01-11-2019, 10:54 PM
Question about god...
(01-10-2019, 07:54 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Does anyone know what god was doing before he supposedly created everything? I mean, if he was floating around "outside of space and time" what do theists claim he was doing all that time? Was he just kinda hangin out? I dont' think I've ever seen this discussed. Wish there was a theist around who could answer my question because I'm certain they'd know the answer. I'm sure they wouldn't just make up a bunch of shit. No, they'd never do that.
He was playing with the Torah.
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01-11-2019, 11:01 PM
Question about god...
(01-11-2019, 04:53 PM)jerryg Wrote: (01-11-2019, 04:49 PM)pocaracas Wrote: (01-11-2019, 04:34 PM)jerryg Wrote: If you concede the premise of outside of time for the sake of the discussion, 'before' doesn't really apply, as before requires time. So it'd have to be some sort of extra dimension that God is in that contains our existence? I've seen some stuff that might sort of apply to this, like a block universe I think it was? I think Evie has talked about this before somewhere? Where all time exists at the same time, and we're at different locations in the block.
So if you have the block containing our time and existence, something outside of that block could exist without change throughout all of it. I dunno. Maybe if God is everything, some god also exists inside our block and outside the block?
My point being, once you go along with the premise of outside of time, you can start coming up with all sorts of weird stuff.
You want weird?
Multidimensional time.
Mathematically, it should work well... But I can't even begin to imagine how that would work in reality.
I still can't wrap my head around plain ole relativity. I just accept that time is a fucked up phenomenon that is always going to be beyond my comprehension.
Don't worry. Time might not exist.
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01-12-2019, 04:57 PM
Question about god...
(01-11-2019, 04:54 PM)jerryg Wrote: (01-11-2019, 04:35 PM)Phaedrus Wrote: Theistic thinking is weird enough without the need to add more to it.
You know there are some rather bright theists out in the world? Probably not as bright as you obviously, but a couple of them are capable of doing a bit of math and science.
As an atheist, I never equate theism with a lack of intellect. Of course, there are hundreds of living scientists
who accept the notion of supernatural entities and paranormal phenomena—no astute atheist would reject that.
Think of Jennifer Wiseman, Francis Collins, Andrew Pinsent, Mike Hulme: all well-known experts in their fields
and all believers in the Christian god.
Nonetheless, their notions of religion are factually incorrect, idealistic, delusional, impractical, and yes... weird.
We all of us have our own fanciful foibles though.
I'm a creationist; I believe that man created God.
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01-12-2019, 05:10 PM
Question about god...
(01-11-2019, 02:01 PM)theophilus Wrote: (01-10-2019, 07:54 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Does anyone know what god was doing before he supposedly created everything...
I'm afraid theists can't answer that question any more than anyone else can.
As a theist, you must answer that question, as it's critical to any argument about the purported existence of gods.
Personally, as an ignostic, I don't have the desire or the need to contemplate the question—that's your job as a theist.
Quote:God will be present and no doubt he will reveal more about himself.
What viable evidence do you possess to support this assertion of doubtlessness? And what is the nature of this "more"
you talk about?
Quote:Perhaps then you will find the answers to your questions.
So if one happens to become a theist, there's no certainty that any of these questions will be answered? That's
a pretty poor bet for giving up sanity and science isn't it?
I'm a creationist; I believe that man created God.
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01-15-2019, 03:22 PM
Question about god...
(01-12-2019, 05:10 PM)SYZ Wrote: As a theist, you must answer that question, as it's critical to any argument about the purported existence of gods.
Personally, as an ignostic, I don't have the desire or the need to contemplate the question—that's your job as a theist.
The fact that God exists is proved by what he is created. If you don't accept that there is nothing I can say that will convince you.
I do not suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it.
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01-15-2019, 03:29 PM
Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 03:22 PM)theophilus Wrote: The fact that God exists is proved by what he is created. If you don't accept that there is nothing I can say that will convince you.
What exists around us is not proof of god. It is merely what theists use as an apologetic: "this world is so beautiful, it must have been created by a divine being". Bullshit.
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01-15-2019, 03:39 PM
Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 03:29 PM)Phaedrus Wrote: (01-15-2019, 03:22 PM)theophilus Wrote: The fact that God exists is proved by what he is created. If you don't accept that there is nothing I can say that will convince you.
What exists around us is not proof of god. It is merely what theists use as an apologetic: "this world is so beautiful, it must have been created by a divine being". Bullshit.
Not everything in the world is beautiful. There is much that is evil and ugly. That is because we have all sinned and our sins have affected the world. The fact that the world exists at all is evidence that there is a God.
I do not suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it.
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01-15-2019, 03:41 PM
Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 03:39 PM)theophilus Wrote: Not everything in the world is beautiful. There is much that is evil and ugly. That is because we have all sinned and our sins have affected the world. The fact that the world exists at all is evidence that there is a God.
Piling bullshit on top of bullshit. It's akin to digging your own grave, but smellier.
The fact that the world exists is not evidence of a creator, but you keep being your delusional self.
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01-15-2019, 03:42 PM
Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 03:39 PM)theophilus Wrote: The fact that the world exists at all is evidence that there is a God.
Really?
Do tell how you arrived at this pearl of wisdom!
[Can't wait to read this!]
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01-15-2019, 03:45 PM
Question about god...
(01-10-2019, 07:54 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Does anyone know what god was doing before he supposedly created everything? I mean, if he was floating around "outside of space and time" what do theists claim he was doing all that time? Was he just kinda hangin out? I dont' think I've ever seen this discussed. Wish there was a theist around who could answer my question because I'm certain they'd know the answer. I'm sure they wouldn't just make up a bunch of shit. No, they'd never do that.
Hmmm... I was taught that G-d is more like a book. -I mean the book itself. How the book came into existence is not particularly relevant to the characters in the story, but the book having pages creates a timeline for them to live in. The book is not within the timeline... the book is the timeline. The book contains within it letters that come together to create stories about the characters, and regardless of what page you're reading at any given moment, the story is happening all at once. Start to finish is contained within the book and it all exists at the same moment.
Eh, that's what I was taught.
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01-15-2019, 03:47 PM
Question about god...
We're all taught things, but true wisdom is learning to think for one's self instead of what one was taught.
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01-15-2019, 03:55 PM
Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 03:47 PM)Phaedrus Wrote: We're all taught things, but true wisdom is learning to think for one's self instead of what one was taught.
Also, when you're taught something, you'd expect to be taught how to acquire that knowledge by yourself.
In the example of the book, how did someone come to know that about god, so that they could teach it to others?
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01-15-2019, 04:00 PM
Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 03:55 PM)pocaracas Wrote: (01-15-2019, 03:47 PM)Phaedrus Wrote: We're all taught things, but true wisdom is learning to think for one's self instead of what one was taught.
Also, when you're taught something, you'd expect to be taught how to acquire that knowledge by yourself.
In the example of the book, how did someone come to know that about god, so that they could teach it to others?
Does it really matter? The Torah says not to eat bacon. How wrong could that possibly be?
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01-15-2019, 04:01 PM
Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 04:00 PM)Aliza Wrote: Does it really matter? The Torah says not to eat bacon. How wrong could that possibly be?
By your tone, I'm guessing you enjoy bacon despite what the Torah states.
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01-15-2019, 04:05 PM
Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 04:00 PM)Aliza Wrote: (01-15-2019, 03:55 PM)pocaracas Wrote: (01-15-2019, 03:47 PM)Phaedrus Wrote: We're all taught things, but true wisdom is learning to think for one's self instead of what one was taught.
Also, when you're taught something, you'd expect to be taught how to acquire that knowledge by yourself.
In the example of the book, how did someone come to know that about god, so that they could teach it to others?
Does it really matter? The Torah says not to eat bacon. How wrong could that possibly be?
To the religious blackbox-type mindset, it doesn't matter, no.
To me, and most people interested in honestly seeking to describe reality as accurately as possible, it is very important! I dare say the "how you get there" is more important than the end result.
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01-15-2019, 04:10 PM
Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 04:01 PM)Phaedrus Wrote: (01-15-2019, 04:00 PM)Aliza Wrote: Does it really matter? The Torah says not to eat bacon. How wrong could that possibly be?
By your tone, I'm guessing you enjoy bacon despite what the Torah states.
No, actually I don't. I did say it in jest, though. I can't stand even the smell of the stuff, but people really believe in their heart of hearts that I'm missing out on something amazing.
The vast majority of Jewish law and custom is man-made and the vast majority of the portion that we believe is G-d given is just good advice. Don't cheat people in business, take care of the elderly, the orphan, and the disabled, say sorry when you fuck up, be quick to forgive others, don't sacrifice people; that's super douchy, and for crying out loud, don't eat ham.
So there's some stuff that's weird!
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01-15-2019, 04:13 PM
Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 04:10 PM)Aliza Wrote: No, actually I don't. I did say it in jest, though. I can't stand even the smell of the stuff, but people really believe in their heart of hearts that I'm missing out on something amazing.
The vast majority of Jewish law and custom is man-made and the vast majority of the portion that we believe is G-d given is just good advice. Don't cheat people in business, take care of the elderly, the orphan, and the disabled, say sorry when you fuck up, be quick to forgive others, don't sacrifice people; that's super douchy, and for crying out loud, don't eat ham.
So there's some stuff that's weird!
When it comes to religion, there is always going to be laws that are man-made and weird.
If you understand this, what adheres you to the laws despite logic dictating that you don't have to?
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01-15-2019, 04:18 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-15-2019, 04:19 PM by Aliza.)
Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 04:05 PM)pocaracas Wrote: (01-15-2019, 04:00 PM)Aliza Wrote: (01-15-2019, 03:55 PM)pocaracas Wrote: Also, when you're taught something, you'd expect to be taught how to acquire that knowledge by yourself.
In the example of the book, how did someone come to know that about god, so that they could teach it to others?
Does it really matter? The Torah says not to eat bacon. How wrong could that possibly be?
To the religious blackbox-type mindset, it doesn't matter, no.
To me, and most people interested in honestly seeking to describe reality as accurately as possible, it is very important! I dare say the "how you get there" is more important than the end result.
If the Torah is really the work of a deity that created the universe, and he gave it to a group of goat herders, then probably it isn't scientifically detailed in the simple interpretation. Why would that even be expected? The book describes how to live one's life and develop a social order. It doesn't describe anything scientific in any detail whatsoever.
I have difficulty seeing what science and the origins of the big-bang have to do with a casual reading of the Torah, when taking it at face value.
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