Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus

[Inkubus]

I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a reply.

Nods: Charles. Babbage.

there are others....... Handwriting and document analysis is a science. 
How much of HJ have you studied?

There are no documents from the first century to analyze.

[Inkubus]

And Tacitus referred to Jesus over a century after he had dissappeared from the scene.

No, he did not.

[Inkubus]

OK......... so how much of the gospel stories have you researched in depth? 
For example, when did you last read G-Mark which is without doubt the most accurate account and written by a partial witness?

A partial witness? You can't be partially pregnant.

[jimhabegger]

I just realized that I don’t need to read all the Paul letters all the way through, to find out if he says anything about what Jesus said and did during his lifetime before he was crucified.

[mordant]

Most of my life, I've thought of Constantine making Christianity the state religion as the reason why Christianity mostly turned away from following Jesus, but now I see that it might go all the way back to Paul, like some people have been saying all along. Paul might have been more deluded, and done more damage, than I was thinking. In some ways the churches have always hidden and corrupted the teachings of Jesus, starting with the ones organized by Paul. I'm getting some new ideas now about the relationship between Paul and the other apostles, and what they might have thought of his teachings and what he was doing.

I have long wondered if Paul was even the origin of what is now known as the gnostic heresy. Read his epistles pretending you known nothing of the gospels, and a very different Jesus emerges -- one mostly seen as apparition-like, "seated in the heavenlies". Anything construable as a physical flesh-and-blood god-man are just glancing / passing references. The bulk of it is very gnostic-like from what I can see.

But then again scholars (even conservative ones) mostly accept that several epistles attributed to Paul weren't written by him anyway, and that there are a number of interpolations even in the accepted ones. None of this weakens my argument however.  The interpolations make Paul more palatable to orthodoxy, not less.

The other problem, as Min will attest, is that the historicity of Paul is almost as questionable of that of Jesus.

In the end I think Paul's writings were so popular that they had to be included in the canon, but by placing the gospels first, he gets interpreted post hoc in light of the gospels, seeming less gnostic and more heady and theoretical. But however you slice it, you are correct, Paul's corpus is, in important ways, not coherent with the gospels or with modern orthodoxy.

[Rhythmcs]

If a HJ is to be believed, and believed to have had a message...then hiding and corrupting whatever message that man may have had started before HP was writing, which was before the gospels were written, and looooong before there was any church of any kind to pick up that work. It's not surprising to find that these three principals are not in accordance..as regardless of whether there was a man (either HJ or HP) - christianity as a social movement had it's own history, it's own development - and what we see today..just like what they saw then.. is a product of that...and not of anything HJ or HP had to say.

In contemporary terms, the brand was bigger than it's managers, whoever they were.

[jimhabegger]

Now I'm doing web searches to see if there are any moral and spiritual ethical teachings in the Paul letters that he could possibly have learned from the twelve, that they could have learned from Jesus. I'm looking for some indication in the Paul letters that he knew something about the life and teachings of Jesus, other than possibly the bread and wine ritual, and one line that might have been quoting Jesus.

[Rhythmcs]

Pauls ethics were decidedly stoic - but that's to be expected for his time and (alleged) upbringing. That's not to say that they couldn't be things that the apostles told him, or that jesus told them (or that, in any way of transmission, made it to HP). HJ and Crew could have also held and espoused stoic ethics. Mark tells just such a story in the widows offering, for one.

HJ as a stoic reformer, a wisdom teacher, isn't part of The Consensus..but, like so much else that people take for granted as a part of that, it's in the list of possible considerations. Could a paul have gotten these ethics from a jesus? A thousand times yes. He could have also gotten them himself, or from any point in any conceivable line of transmission between an assumed HJ and an assumed HP - because they were ubiquitous to the time and place.

(as an aside, I appreciate the convo regardless of any disagreements - I think the story of the religion is far more interesting than the story the religion tells - and alot of the time it's just nuts pulling a madeline kahn)

[jimhabegger]

I'm thinking that maybe B(j)J wasn't saying anything in his public talks or private lessons that wasn't being said by others (apart from himself being the lord of God's kingdom), so no matter how much B(j)P's teachings might resemble the teachings of B(j)J, there's no way of knowing if he got them from stories about B(j)J or from somewhere else.

(later)

B(j)J = Jim's Biblical Jesus
B(j)P = Jim's Biblical Paul

Even though I'm thinking of them as real people, I'm not thinking of them as historical people, as people who could or should be part of any story about the past written by historians.

[Free]

Paul never wrote a sentence about anything that Jesus said or did, although some will want to mention Paul's stuff about the last meal, etc. He wasn't interest. Couldn't have been.
Cephas was most fed up with Paul and maybe that's how G-Mark got written, including his memoirs. 
Historical Jesus is not about Historical Christianity, its about a Jew who wanted to rebel against a corrupted, greedy, hypocritical bunch of quislings.

LOL
Nice story bro, but it needs some zombies and dragons.

I have proven (above posts) that in fact Paul did write about him, and you were unable to provide
any historical or scholarly support for your unsupported assertions about the the Jews of the day.
In fact the gospels refute your anti-Semitic view of the Jews and Jesus.

Paul's Jesus was VERY specifically written about a number of times.
Paul's Jesus was a celestial being who absolutely was also human being, with a specific human history who was crucified and died.
You may not like that, but that's what the texts show. A dual-nature. The Pauline Jesus was an "entity" .. BOTH human and divine.
You may not like that, ... but that's too bad. For anyone later to come along and attempt to deconstruct what was the Pauline concept into
separate "Biblical" and "historical" Jesuses is dishonest. Paul's Jesus was ONE entity, with two natures. Pauls' Jesus was BOTH a celestial being and a human historical being who was crucified and died. We know what the authors of the Pauline letters thought about THE Jesus they had in mind.

Philippians 2: 6-8 "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!"
It doesn't matter what we think of this, ... or the fact that he's not interested in more human details. His Jesus was a dual-natured being who did actually suffer death. You can't supply your own definitions and then using that strawman say that Paul never talked about Jesus. Paul talked about HIS Jesus quite a lot.

This is not a nothing. 1 Corinthians 23-26 "23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body, which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes."  ....... a Jewish human, participating (willingly) in a Jewish festival. You may not like the Pauline "school's" ideas but you don't get to make up shit about what they clearly wrote.

It's pretty obvious that Paul did not consider this entity (Jesus) as equivalent with "God" or Yahweh.
Philippians 2:9-11 "For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." A deity higher than Jesus gave him something .. exaltation. The Jews thought that the heavenly host consisted of many divine beings, but none equivalent to "God"/Yahweh. Jesus Christ was one of those, maybe even the highest of "those", but not "the Father" who remained highest.

Matthew 5:17-18 “Do not think that I have come to abolish Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

Jesus went to the temple, and preached in the temple. His followers went to the temple and prayed in the temple, (according to the gospels).
The story you paint of a rebel is not supported by anything. He said he didn't come to change anything.
He and his followers participated in the Jewish festivals and culture, and was sought out by all sorts of Jews, according to the stories about him.

Pauline quotes about Jesus :

Acts 22:20–21 “And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him. And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.”

Romans 5:1–2 "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."'

1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 5:7–8 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

1 Corinthians 15:24–26 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Philippians 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ

Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

1 Thessalonians 4:16–17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Timothy 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Nicely done.

[Rhythmcs]

A safe bet, is that the stories represent the viewpoints of real people, even if they don't accurately reflect historic persons or historic realities.

That's to be expected, since the message they tell us is not about how the world is or was - but how it should be or will be or will become

As for the above - looks like paul is telling us about christ in all of those - christ is not HJ.

[Free]

All relative textual evidence shows that the Romans were well aware of the Christians, and had a developed system to deal with them according to Pliny's letters to Trajan.

The whole point of Pliny's letter is that he is making it up as he goes along.

It is my practice, my lord, to refer to you all matters concerning which I am in doubt. For who can better give guidance to my hesitation or inform my ignorance? I have never before participated in trials of Christians, so I do not know what offenses are to be punished or investigated, or to what extent.

That's a bit desperate Min, even for you.

He's looking for leadership from Trajan on what to do about the Christians. Nothing more, nothing less.

Moreover he makes clear that the complaint against this particular group was that they were holding political meetings which had been banned.

Trajan's reply is exceedingly mild.

Neither seems to know that they were dealing with a gang of crazed arsonists who tried to burn down the capitol a mere 40 odd years earlier as "Tacitus" ( Pliny's good friend!) is supposed to have reported.  That seems odd don't you think?

Both knew they were dealing with Christians ... after all ... it's right in your quote.

[eider]

Okay - I have to ask....

Where the hell did you pull this one out of?

For example, when did you last read G-Mark which is without doubt the most accurate account and written by a partial witness?

I have to ask........ did you read it recently?  Ever? 
If you scrutinized it very closely you would read a passage which almost certainly referred to the writer. 
And G-Mark is all about a man if you redact the fiddlings.  And then the other gospels begin to turn him in to....The God who created the whole universe and selected this planet among trillions to produce a creature like God's self after many billions of years. So can you see the difference? 

Have you studied G-Mark?

[eider]

Thanks. Now I know that I need to read all the letters that say they're from Paul, to see if there are any other mentions of what Jesus said and did during his lifetime, not counting after his resurrection, if I really want to know. (to self: Hm. Do I really want to know, enough to put that much time into it?)

Easy!  If you download Paul's letters then you can use 'search' with the name 'Jesus' and you will see that there isn't a single anecdote or story about anything that Jesus said or did. 
This is simple stuff these days.

[Free]

Okay - I have to ask....

Where the hell did you pull this one out of?

I have to ask........ did you read it recently?  Ever? 
If you scrutinized it very closely you would read a passage which almost certainly referred to the writer. 
And G-Mark is all about a man if you redact the fiddlings.  And then the other gospels begin to turn him in to....The God who created the whole universe and selected this planet among trillions to produce a creature like God's self after many billions of years. So can you see the difference? 

Have you studied G-Mark?

You are asserting here. Provide the passage that almost certainly refers to the writer.

[Rhythmcs]

Dracula is also about a man, if you redact all the fiddlings. Not Vlad The Impaler, amusingly, but the general eastern european man stealing all the good british girls.

[jimhabegger]

Thanks. Now I know that I need to read all the letters that say they're from Paul, to see if there are any other mentions of what Jesus said and did during his lifetime, not counting after his resurrection, if I really want to know. (to self: Hm. Do I really want to know, enough to put that much time into it?)

Easy!  If you download Paul's letters then you can use 'search' with the name 'Jesus' and you will see that there isn't a single anecdote or story about anything that Jesus said or did.

I did that already. I found three possible examples, but for my purposes in that search there would need to be many more.

[eider]

LOL
Nice story bro, but it needs some zombies and dragons.

I have proven (above posts) that in fact Paul did write about him, and you were unable to provide
any historical or scholarly support for your unsupported assertions about the the Jews of the day.
In fact the gospels refute your anti-Semitic view of the Jews and Jesus.

Paul's Jesus was VERY specifically written about a number of times.
Paul's Jesus was a celestial being who absolutely was also human being, with a specific human history who was crucified and died.
You may not like that, but that's what the texts show. A dual-nature. The Pauline Jesus was an "entity" .. BOTH human and divine.
You may not like that, ... but that's too bad. For anyone later to come along and attempt to deconstruct what was the Pauline concept into
separate "Biblical" and "historical" Jesuses is dishonest. Paul's Jesus was ONE entity, with two natures. Pauls' Jesus was BOTH a celestial being and a human historical being who was crucified and died. We know what the authors of the Pauline letters thought about THE Jesus they had in mind.

Philippians 2: 6-8 "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!"
It doesn't matter what we think of this, ... or the fact that he's not interested in more human details. His Jesus was a dual-natured being who did actually suffer death. You can't supply your own definitions and then using that strawman say that Paul never talked about Jesus. Paul talked about HIS Jesus quite a lot.

This is not a nothing. 1 Corinthians 23-26 "23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body, which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes."  ....... a Jewish human, participating (willingly) in a Jewish festival. You may not like the Pauline "school's" ideas but you don't get to make up shit about what they clearly wrote.

It's pretty obvious that Paul did not consider this entity (Jesus) as equivalent with "God" or Yahweh.
Philippians 2:9-11 "For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." A deity higher than Jesus gave him something .. exaltation. The Jews thought that the heavenly host consisted of many divine beings, but none equivalent to "God"/Yahweh. Jesus Christ was one of those, maybe even the highest of "those", but not "the Father" who remained highest.

Matthew 5:17-18 “Do not think that I have come to abolish Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

Jesus went to the temple, and preached in the temple. His followers went to the temple and prayed in the temple, (according to the gospels).
The story you paint of a rebel is not supported by anything. He said he didn't come to change anything.
He and his followers participated in the Jewish festivals and culture, and was sought out by all sorts of Jews, according to the stories about him.

Pauline quotes about Jesus :

Acts 22:20–21 “And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him. And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.”

Romans 5:1–2 "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."'

1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 5:7–8 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

1 Corinthians 15:24–26 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Philippians 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ

Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

1 Thessalonians 4:16–17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Timothy 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

You poor old academic you.....! What waffle!

You showed nothing described by Paul, spoken or acted by Jesus in all that waffle, not one single incident during Jesus's campaign......... and then you slip in a quote from G-Matthew:-
Matthew 5:17-18 “Do not think that I have come to abolish Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

All those laws discarded and ignored by the Priesthood, the Jewish Leaders, which Jesus wanted FULFILLED.   He was obviously most interested in all the Poor-Laws. His words and actions show that clearly.

Go and do some studying, is my suggestion.

[Rhythmcs]

All moot in the end, with respect to The Consensus, at least. Pauls christ is not the historical jesus - and that's assuming there was one. Paul, whoever he was, if he was, emphatically did not believe in or describe HJ. The HJ of The Consensus is as far removed from pauls christ as abraham lincoln, vampire hunter... is removed from the president of the same name.

HJ is literally anyone or no one, the only person he can't be is the man in the stories. Obviously, the faithful think that's a flaw or omission in the historic method, a flaw of the HJ.

[eider]

there are others....... Handwriting and document analysis is a science. 
How much of HJ have you studied?

There are no documents from the first century to analyze.

G-Mark is a first century document.....but have you studied it?

[eider]

And Tacitus referred to Jesus over a century after he had dissappeared from the scene.

No, he did not.

Thank goodness for that!  So we can forget Tacitus..........I have to tell you that I never did bother with Tacitus!
Heh-Heh! 

[eider]

OK......... so how much of the gospel stories have you researched in depth? 
For example, when did you last read G-Mark which is without doubt the most accurate account and written by a partial witness?

A partial witness? You can't be partially pregnant.

So you don't know about that either.........   you can't be informed about HJ in my opinion.

[eider]

Now I'm doing web searches to see if there are any moral and spiritual ethical teachings in the Paul letters that he could possibly have learned from the twelve, that they could have learned from Jesus. I'm looking for some indication in the Paul letters that he knew something about the life and teachings of Jesus, other than possibly the bread and wine ritual, and one line that might have been quoting Jesus.

Bingo! You won't find anything in Paul's letters to show that he cared a hoot for the life and sayings of Jesus. Nothing apart from last suppers, the bread/wine ritual.  Paul cannot help HJ research at all, I don't even know why he gets in to posts in an HJ thread....honestly.

[eider]

LOL
Nice story bro, but it needs some zombies and dragons.

I have proven (above posts) that in fact Paul did write about him, and you were unable to provide
any historical or scholarly support for your unsupported assertions about the the Jews of the day.
In fact the gospels refute your anti-Semitic view of the Jews and Jesus.

Paul's Jesus was VERY specifically written about a number of times.
Paul's Jesus was a celestial being who absolutely was also human being, with a specific human history who was crucified and died.
You may not like that, but that's what the texts show. A dual-nature. The Pauline Jesus was an "entity" .. BOTH human and divine.
You may not like that, ... but that's too bad. For anyone later to come along and attempt to deconstruct what was the Pauline concept into
separate "Biblical" and "historical" Jesuses is dishonest. Paul's Jesus was ONE entity, with two natures. Pauls' Jesus was BOTH a celestial being and a human historical being who was crucified and died. We know what the authors of the Pauline letters thought about THE Jesus they had in mind.

Philippians 2: 6-8 "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!"
It doesn't matter what we think of this, ... or the fact that he's not interested in more human details. His Jesus was a dual-natured being who did actually suffer death. You can't supply your own definitions and then using that strawman say that Paul never talked about Jesus. Paul talked about HIS Jesus quite a lot.

This is not a nothing. 1 Corinthians 23-26 "23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body, which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes."  ....... a Jewish human, participating (willingly) in a Jewish festival. You may not like the Pauline "school's" ideas but you don't get to make up shit about what they clearly wrote.

It's pretty obvious that Paul did not consider this entity (Jesus) as equivalent with "God" or Yahweh.
Philippians 2:9-11 "For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." A deity higher than Jesus gave him something .. exaltation. The Jews thought that the heavenly host consisted of many divine beings, but none equivalent to "God"/Yahweh. Jesus Christ was one of those, maybe even the highest of "those", but not "the Father" who remained highest.

Matthew 5:17-18 “Do not think that I have come to abolish Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

Jesus went to the temple, and preached in the temple. His followers went to the temple and prayed in the temple, (according to the gospels).
The story you paint of a rebel is not supported by anything. He said he didn't come to change anything.
He and his followers participated in the Jewish festivals and culture, and was sought out by all sorts of Jews, according to the stories about him.

Pauline quotes about Jesus :

Acts 22:20–21 “And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him. And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.”

Romans 5:1–2 "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."'

1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 5:7–8 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

1 Corinthians 15:24–26 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Philippians 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ

Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

1 Thessalonians 4:16–17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Timothy 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Nicely done.

Huh?  He showed not a single action or speech of Jesus (in life)and then snuck in a speech from Jesus out of G-Matthew.
Paul did refer to the win and bread ritual but that was about it.

[eider]

A safe bet, is that the stories represent the viewpoints of real people, even if they don't accurately reflect historic persons or historic realities.

That's to be expected, since the message they tell us is not about how the world is or was - but how it should be or will be or will become

As for the above - looks like paul is telling us about christ in all of those - christ is not HJ.

Bingo! 
There's nothing in any of Paul's letters to enlarge a study of HJ. Nothing.