Atheist Discussion

Are they one in the same, the same thing.
I believe they are the same thing.
any dissenters?
please explain

This feels like a trick question. I dissent, they are different. One is an amalgamation of stories, propaganda, myth, history, and I think sincere recollections of a wandering apocalyptic messiah (or two, or three, or four). The other is the one in the bible.

It depends on what you mean when you use those terms; if somebody believes in the biblical Jesus then they most likely assume that's also the historical Jesus.

To me, it seems reasonable that the historical Jesus may be one or more apocalyptic preachers wandering around the area anywhere from 100BCE to 40BCE who had some followers and they later embellished the stories to create the biblical Jesus. I do not believe that the claims about biblical Jesus performing miracles any more than I believe similar claims about any number of other cult leaders (e.g. Jones, Applewhite, Moon, etc). There may also have been no historical Jesus and it could all be mythic tales being re-cast as True Stories™.

Historical Jesus would be to Abraham Lincoln as Biblical Jesus would be to Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter.

The historical Jesus was just some nice wise dude who inspired people and then got killed. Kinda like Socrates but without the high intelligence, without the curiosity so high and question-asking so obsessive that it was borderline O.C.D., and without the far more noble and dignified death story.

The supernatural Jesus was just a magic man who had magic powers and created the universe.

Definitely different dudes.

How on Earth are they the same thing?

(12-05-2018, 12:26 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: [ -> ]This feels like a trick question.  I dissent, they are different.  One is an amalgamation of stories, propaganda, myth, history, and I think sincere recollections of a wandering apocalyptic messiah (or two, or three, or four).  The other is the one in the bible.

what is the source of this belief? what are you basing this on? what is the data associated with this^? evidence?

(12-05-2018, 01:16 AM)Schrodinger's Outlaw Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2018, 12:26 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: [ -> ]This feels like a trick question.  I dissent, they are different.  One is an amalgamation of stories, propaganda, myth, history, and I think sincere recollections of a wandering apocalyptic messiah (or two, or three, or four).  The other is the one in the bible.

what is the source of this belief? what are you basing this on? what is the data associated with this^? evidence?

Do your own damn homework ... lazy ass.

(12-05-2018, 01:16 AM)Schrodinger's Outlaw Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2018, 12:26 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: [ -> ]This feels like a trick question.  I dissent, they are different.  One is an amalgamation of stories, propaganda, myth, history, and I think sincere recollections of a wandering apocalyptic messiah (or two, or three, or four).  The other is the one in the bible.

what is the source of this belief? what are you basing this on? what is the data associated with this^? evidence?

My noggin tells me the biblical Jesus rose from the dead, walked on water, and turned water into wine.  My noggin also tells me that that there has never in history been a person who rose from the dead, walked on water, and turned water into wine.  Ergo, different.

why do you think there was a historical jesus? what are you basing that understanding on?
you just dreamed this up?
I figure you base biblical jesus on the bible, what source are you using to suggest historical jesus is different character

(12-05-2018, 12:54 AM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: [ -> ]The historical Jesus was just some nice wise dude who inspired people and then got killed. Kinda like Socrates but without the high intelligence, without the curiosity so high and question-asking so obsessive that it was borderline O.C.D., and without the far more noble and dignified death story.

The supernatural Jesus was just a magic man who had magic powers and created the universe.

Definitely different dudes.

what is the source of this understanding? what is the evidence you are using to suggest this?

(12-05-2018, 01:35 AM)Schrodinger's Outlaw Wrote: [ -> ]why do you think there was a historical jesus? what are you basing that understanding on?
you just dreamed this up?
I figure you base biblical jesus on the bible, what source are you using to suggest historical jesus is different character

My source is "I'm not retarded."  "Biblical" Jesus walks on water and turns water into wine, "historical" Jesus doesn't.  Again, "different."  As I think I just said.  Isn't there a I'M DRUNK thread somewhere missing you?

(12-05-2018, 01:41 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2018, 01:35 AM)Schrodinger's Outlaw Wrote: [ -> ]why do you think there was a historical jesus? what are you basing that understanding on?
you just dreamed this up?
I figure you base biblical jesus on the bible, what source are you using to suggest historical jesus is different character

My source is "I'm not retarded."  "Biblical" Jesus walks on water and turns water into wine, "historical" Jesus doesn't.  Again, "different."  As I think I just said.  Isn't there a I'M DRUNK thread somewhere missing you?

oh so what else about life do you just invent because you "aren't retarded"?

(12-05-2018, 12:12 AM)Schrodinger's Outlaw Wrote: [ -> ]Are they one in the same, the same thing.
I believe they are the same thing.
any dissenters?
please explain

Hold on... Are you saying that you believe in Jesus of the Christian bible or are you saying that you don't believe in Jesus, but that the depiction in the bible is more or less accurate?

(12-05-2018, 01:44 AM)Aliza Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2018, 12:12 AM)Schrodinger's Outlaw Wrote: [ -> ]Are they one in the same, the same thing.
I believe they are the same thing.
any dissenters?
please explain

Hold on... Are you saying that you believe in Jesus of the Christian bible or are you saying that you don't believe in Jesus, but that the depiction in the bible is more or less accurate?

if historical jesus isn't presented in the bible what is the source of the understanding there was a historical jesus that isn't presented in the bible.

(12-05-2018, 01:43 AM)Schrodinger's Outlaw Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2018, 01:41 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2018, 01:35 AM)Schrodinger's Outlaw Wrote: [ -> ]why do you think there was a historical jesus? what are you basing that understanding on?
you just dreamed this up?
I figure you base biblical jesus on the bible, what source are you using to suggest historical jesus is different character

My source is "I'm not retarded."  "Biblical" Jesus walks on water and turns water into wine, "historical" Jesus doesn't.  Again, "different."  As I think I just said.  Isn't there a I'M DRUNK thread somewhere missing you?

oh so what else about life do you just invent because you "aren't retarded"?

What else do you do besides ask stupid questions?

(12-05-2018, 01:47 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2018, 01:43 AM)Schrodinger's Outlaw Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2018, 01:41 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: [ -> ]My source is "I'm not retarded."  "Biblical" Jesus walks on water and turns water into wine, "historical" Jesus doesn't.  Again, "different."  As I think I just said.  Isn't there a I'M DRUNK thread somewhere missing you?

oh so what else about life do you just invent because you "aren't retarded"?

What else do you do besides ask stupid questions?

you admitted you are the source of the story, not much else to say

(12-05-2018, 01:48 AM)Schrodinger's Outlaw Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2018, 01:47 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2018, 01:43 AM)Schrodinger's Outlaw Wrote: [ -> ]oh so what else about life do you just invent because you "aren't retarded"?

What else do you do besides ask stupid questions?

you admitted you are the source of the story, not much else to say

Indeed.

(12-05-2018, 01:49 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2018, 01:48 AM)Schrodinger's Outlaw Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2018, 01:47 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: [ -> ]What else do you do besides ask stupid questions?

you admitted you are the source of the story, not much else to say

Indeed.

nice, so is historical jesus fiction or non-fiction?

(12-05-2018, 01:45 AM)Schrodinger's Outlaw Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2018, 01:44 AM)Aliza Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2018, 12:12 AM)Schrodinger's Outlaw Wrote: [ -> ]Are they one in the same, the same thing.
I believe they are the same thing.
any dissenters?
please explain

Hold on... Are you saying that you believe in Jesus of the Christian bible or are you saying that you don't believe in Jesus, but that the depiction in the bible is more or less accurate?

if historical jesus isn't presented in the bible what is the source of the understanding there was a historical jesus that isn't presented in the bible.

Woah. That's baking my noodle.

Because Jesus is suppose to be a Jewish story, people turn to the Jews and ask, "So do you have any record of this guy?" The answer is sort of. A Jesus-like character is written about in the Talmud, and this guy is clearly not the person depicted in the Christian bible... some say that it is about Jesus but that it's an open secret that the details were changed because the Christians would have killed us for talking blasphemy. Others say the guy mentioned in the Talmud is not Jesus, but that the story of Jesus was based on this talmudic character, Joshua.  

There is also the problem that Jesus's story is not in any way Jewish (like ... at all), and that there is no corroborating evidence to suggest that he ever existed.

(12-05-2018, 01:51 AM)Schrodinger's Outlaw Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2018, 01:49 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2018, 01:48 AM)Schrodinger's Outlaw Wrote: [ -> ]you admitted you are the source of the story, not much else to say

Indeed.

nice, so is historical jesus fiction or non-fiction?

A historical Jesus (or any historical figure for that matter) by definition is not fictional.

(12-05-2018, 01:54 AM)Aliza Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2018, 01:45 AM)Schrodinger's Outlaw Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2018, 01:44 AM)Aliza Wrote: [ -> ]Hold on... Are you saying that you believe in Jesus of the Christian bible or are you saying that you don't believe in Jesus, but that the depiction in the bible is more or less accurate?

if historical jesus isn't presented in the bible what is the source of the understanding there was a historical jesus that isn't presented in the bible.

Woah. That's baking my noodle.

Because Jesus is suppose to be a Jewish story, people turn to the Jews and ask, "So do you have any record of this guy?" The answer is sort of. A Jesus-like character is written about in the Talmud, and this guy is clearly not the person depicted in the Christian bible... some say that it is about Jesus but that it's an open secret that the details were changed because the Christians would have killed us for talking blasphemy. Others say the guy mentioned in the Talmud is not Jesus, but that the story of Jesus was based on this talmudic character, Joshua.  

There is also the problem that Jesus's story is not in any way Jewish (like ... at all), and that there is no corroborating evidence to suggest that he ever existed.

I'm not debating that, I am suggesting that historical jesus is biblical jesus, asked for dissent
so far somebody made up a story about jesus existing as historical in 2018, because they aren't retarded

(12-05-2018, 01:55 AM)Grandizer Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2018, 01:51 AM)Schrodinger's Outlaw Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2018, 01:49 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: [ -> ]Indeed.

nice, so is historical jesus fiction or non-fiction?

A historical Jesus (or any historical figure for that matter) by definition is not fictional.

so who is historical jesus if not biblical jesus?
some guy named sam? a collection of sams or maybe elmer?

(12-05-2018, 02:00 AM)Schrodinger's Outlaw Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2018, 01:55 AM)Grandizer Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2018, 01:51 AM)Schrodinger's Outlaw Wrote: [ -> ]nice, so is historical jesus fiction or non-fiction?

A historical Jesus (or any historical figure for that matter) by definition is not fictional.

so who is historical jesus if not biblical jesus?
some guy named sam? a collection of sams or maybe elmer?

According to some scholars like Bart Ehrman, he was an apocalypticist preacher who preached the imminent coming of a physical kingdom of God. The Jesus you read about in the Gospels is an embellishment of this figure according to the theologies and beliefs of their respective authors.

(12-05-2018, 01:51 AM)Schrodinger's Outlaw Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2018, 01:49 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2018, 01:48 AM)Schrodinger's Outlaw Wrote: [ -> ]you admitted you are the source of the story, not much else to say

Indeed.

nice, so is historical jesus fiction or non-fiction?

If you're only talking absolutes, you're not being serious.  That's not how the study of history works.  If this is just some kind of philosopher's "gotcha" game, I'm not interested.  Something that far back in time, you can only deal in likelihoods, some being more, well, likely than others.

(12-05-2018, 02:06 AM)Grandizer Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2018, 02:00 AM)Schrodinger's Outlaw Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-05-2018, 01:55 AM)Grandizer Wrote: [ -> ]A historical Jesus (or any historical figure for that matter) by definition is not fictional.

so who is historical jesus if not biblical jesus?
some guy named sam? a collection of sams or maybe elmer?

According to some scholars like Bart Ehrman, he was an apocalypticist preacher who preached the imminent coming of a physical kingdom of God. The Jesus you read about in the Gospels is an embellishment of this figure according to the theologies and beliefs of their respective authors.

I read some of his writings, lame
what is the source of the story of historical Jesus??
I have read his shit, it's lacking in substance
this is what bart says:
basically there was a guy named jesus in the bible but since the bible is myth there was a second more palatable jesus named historical jesus because I can't honestly say biblical jesus existed.
he made it up, lots of people make up historical jesus but if it weren't for the bible there would be no historical jesus
so where does the story of historical jesus originate? besides "thinkers"