Welcome to Atheist Discussion, a new community created by former members of The Thinking Atheist forum.

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Three Centuries Of Christian Atrocities

Three Centuries Of Christian Atrocities
(03-26-2020, 08:57 AM)Szuchow Wrote:
(03-26-2020, 05:17 AM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:
(03-26-2020, 04:16 AM)Szuchow Wrote: Fact that you remember some quotes from Lenin does not mean that reasons provided in said quotes were only one. Also it is not like Lenin would admit that he sees his own party as a church and it's ideology as religion when he thought about marxism in scientific terms. Following that he would hardly admit that he is destroying opponent to ruling souls of the masses. 

Blaming the need to make country ready for German invasion for purges is nothing more than post hoc rationalization. Depending on what book you read you find among reasons paranoia, wanting to create climate of fear, weakness of Soviet dictature and thus need for excessive violence to prop it up and simple purge of elements that were thought to be disloyal.

Stalin did indeed move large numbers of minority ethnics away from where they might support German invaders.  It was brutal, ugly and very well known why Stalin did it, it was hardly a secret.  Not a rationalization, history.  And when Lenin openly wrote his reasons for attacking the Orthodox leaders for supporting the counter-revolutionaries, I have no reason to doubt his words, which were rather coarse and to the point.  Lenin had no reason to hide it or soft peddle his program.

Both Lenin and Stalin perceived themselves to be surrounded by enemies, and that brutal suppression of such enemies was absolutely necessary.  And anybody who did not agree were labeled as enemies themselves, lacking in Communist zeal, and likely to end up in the gulags for their seeming lack of willingness to pursue phantom enemies lurking everywhere.  Under Stalin, this devolved into sheer madness.

Notice that I wrote purges nothing about minorities specificialy. Then look into subject literature and find out that claim about rationalization isn't my fantasy - Oleg Khlevniuk biography of Stalin will be a good starting point I think. 

It may be hard to grasp for you but people may have many reasons for taking particular action, Lenin included. Fact that he acknowledged one reason in writing does not mean that he didn't have others. 

Both Lenin and Stalin were in fact surrounded by enemies (many caused by their actions) even if they had many allies.

 I wonder what scholarly sources allow you to claim that brutal suppression of enemies was "absolutely necessary"? Jorg Baberowski in his book about Stalin Russia* deems purges to be sign of weakness and I find it to be reasonable. 

*I will add title when in home.

It was not a matter of opinions of academics, but readings of materials Lenin wrote himself.  It was a brutal era and Lenin had no compunction against being brutal to achieve his ends in a world filled with powerful enemies.  It is notable that before he died, he warned his fellow Bolsheviks against Stalin, knowing full well Stalin was going to be a rather brutal man who should not be allowed to take power.  While some may deem purges a sign of weakness, Stalin obviously did not agree.  By the late 20's the show trials began.  Paranoia and madness ruled Russia.  Of course it was not Stalin alone.  But Stalin had appointed many people to the government, many poorly educated who shared his paranoia and brutality.  And this went on until the ill fated Khrushchev started de-Stalinization in the 50's  It was a mad system that grew because nobody had the power to stop it.
I am a sovereign citizen of the Multiverse, and I vote!


Reply


Messages In This Thread
RE: Three Centuries Of Christian Atrocities - by Cheerful Charlie - 03-26-2020, 09:25 AM



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)