The Brexit Thread (topical thread)

[julep]

I do think the UK has forgotten that it is no longer 1895.

...and the US has forgotten it's no longer 1945.   Our very own puppet's backers seem to yearn for 1895 along with the Brexiteers.  It is undeniablly hard to let go of empire and resign one's state to becoming Italy, I guess.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Bannon doesn't seem bound by international boundaries. I wouldn't dismiss chewing off one at a time, myself.

[Minimalist]

...and the US has forgotten it's no longer 1945.

The Trumptards are aiming for about 1835.... back when the government didn't do shit and slavery was legal.

[Deesse23]

They won't be stopped by cutting off one country at a time but by tackling the methods that they use. The flow of dark money. The rigging of elections and the spread of fake news and manipulation of mainstream and social media.

The thought occurs to me that one-at-a-time is in itself a strong tactic towards achieving their ends. Chop off one country, and the remainder are that much weaker.

"Defeat in detail" is the phrase to pops to my mind.

Divide et impera

Single countries can be dealt with easier, individually, by whomever.

[Minimalist]

Depends on the country.

We overran Greneda and Panama pretty easily.  Iraq and Afghanistan?  Couple of fuckups there.

[Deesse23]

I am not talking about military conquest.

[abaris]

Bannon doesn't seem bound by international boundaries. I wouldn't dismiss chewing off one at a time, myself.

Seeing as Bannon isn't very popular amongst continental rightwingers, he's kind of a joke. His efforts weren't exactly greeted with enthusiasm. But that's no reason to rejoice, since the extreme right is largely funded from Russian sources. Openly in the case of Marine Le Pen, less openly in the case of other parties, such as the Italian Lega.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Bannon doesn't seem bound by international boundaries. I wouldn't dismiss chewing off one at a time, myself.

Seeing as Bannon isn't very popular amongst continental rightwingers, he's kind of a joke. His efforts weren't exactly greeted with enthusiasm. But that's no reason to rejoice, since the extreme right is largely funded from Russian sources. Openly in the case of Marine Le Pen, less openly in the case of other parties, such as the Italian Lega.

We'll see on Sunday.

[Mathilda]

Bannon doesn't seem bound by international boundaries. I wouldn't dismiss chewing off one at a time, myself.

Seeing as Bannon isn't very popular amongst continental rightwingers, he's kind of a joke. His efforts weren't exactly greeted with enthusiasm. But that's no reason to rejoice, since the extreme right is largely funded from Russian sources. Openly in the case of Marine Le Pen, less openly in the case of other parties, such as the Italian Lega.

No. Steve Bannon is just as much a threat as Russia.


Revealed: Trump-linked US Christian ‘fundamentalists’ pour millions of ‘dark money’ into Europe, boosting the far right

US Christian right ‘fundamentalists’ linked to the Trump administration and Steve Bannon are among a dozen American groups that have poured at least $50 million of ‘dark money’ into Europe over the last decade, openDemocracy can reveal today.

Between them, these groups have backed ‘armies’ of ultra-conservative lawyers and political activists, as well as ‘family values’ campaigns against LGBT rights, sex education and abortion – and a number appear to have increasing links with Europe’s far right.

Among the biggest spenders is a group whose chief counsel is also Donald Trump’s personal lawyer, Jay Sekulow. Another organisation has collaborated with a controversial Rome-based ‘institute’ backed by Steve Bannon. And a number of the groups are connected to the World Congress of Families: a network of ultra-conservative activists which has links to far-right politicians and movements in several European countries, including Italy, Hungary, Poland, Spain and Serbia.

None of these American groups discloses who its donors are – though at least two have links to famous conservative billionaires, such as the Koch brothers (who helped bankroll the Tea Party Movement) and the family of Trump’s education secretary.

[Deesse23]

We'll see on Sunday.

Polls seem to indicate ca. 12% for AfD. Dont know about r-w-pop from other countries tho.

[Deesse23]

No. Steve Bannon is just as much a threat as Russia.

I am sceptical. Have read some german articles that say he is all talk but nohing to a real effect. He had money and invested it....into getting attention, nothing lasting.

He just met AfD Leader Meuthen in...Weimar of all places. After the "friendly meeting" (according to Meuthen), he distanced himself from Bannon stating that he wishes a non EU-citizen not to dominate the campaign for EU elections.

And that may be the weak spot of the (global) r-w-populists. They have a common foe, but no common goals. Like uncle Joe and Adolf coperated as long as it was in their mutual interest, they went at each others throat otherwise. r-w-pops may enter EU parliament, they may be able to make up a faction and mess up things, but they may eat each other up in the process. Happened at least here in Germany. Ok, 12% still left for Afd, but initial prospects and expectations years ago were much higher, there were and are more parties and personalities that however just couldnt get themselves to cooperate because Afd either went too far or didnt go far enough. Add to this the revealing of shady business practices.
There may be quite a bit of cannibalism going on between r-w-pops after the endorphines of initial success have worn off.

I consider Putin to be the much bigger threat. He has a whole superpower at his disposal including all of its ressources, combined with his own experience as a spook, and has very well trained and experienced personnel.

[abaris]

I consider Putin to be the much bigger threat. He has a whole superpower at his disposal including all of its ressources, combined with his own experience as a spook, and has very well trained and experienced personnel.

Fact is, the USA (under Trump) as well as Russia are a threat to European stability and development. Both powers want to destroy the union. Right now Russia is the bigger threat, since Bannon came late to the party. The extreme right - apart from Geerd Wilders - is already in Russian pockets and probably receiving their marching orders from Moscow. There also was an investigation into Arron Banks, funding Nigel Farage with Russian money. That's why Bannon is less than popular among the right. You can't serve two masters having conflicting goals.

[Mathilda]

Question is, what happens now that we know that there has been large scale voter suppression in the UK?

There is a distinct lack of accountability now in the UK. It's been happening since at least New Labour's time and if there are no consequences to the undermining of the democratic process then, as we have seen, it will continue and become increasingly more blatant. The unionists broke promises in the Scottish referendum. The EU referendum was based on lies by the leavers. And there has been widespread voter suppression in the EU elections.

The EU should demand that the UK re-run the elections.

We knew EU citizens could be stopped from voting, yet those with power did nothing

Consequently, her choice effectively confirmed that many EU citizens would be denied their vote. That is why we need to consider today’s appalling developments a form of deliberate voter suppression.

[Deesse23]

I consider Putin to be the much bigger threat. He has a whole superpower at his disposal including all of its ressources, combined with his own experience as a spook, and has very well trained and experienced personnel.

Fact is, the USA (under Trump) as well as Russia are a threat to European stability and development. Both powers want to destroy the union. Right now Russia is the bigger threat, since Bannon came late to the party. The extreme right - apart from Geerd Wilders - is already in Russian pockets and probably receiving their marching orders from Moscow. There also was an investigation into Arron Banks, funding Nigel Farage with Russian money. That's why Bannon is less than popular among the right. You can't serve two masters having conflicting goals.

The USA under Trump, well there will be a USA not under Trump, sooner or later. USA doesnt want to destroy EU and its relations across the atlantic, the currrent administration wants to, but not really. Its only a byproduct of a bizarre twisted understanding of patriotism/nationalism (but i agree its fueled by Putin in order to make use of it). Imho its quite an stereotpical/typical amrican thing, an underlying mindset always present in the US to some degree, so it is not really surprising what happened in nov 2016. The situation with Russia/Putin is going to be more lasting imho, especially considering the economic levers he has (gas and other resources).
Marching orders from Moscow, well i seriously doubt that. I dont see any of the EU r-w-pops propagating ideas conform to what Putin promotes, but autoritarianism itself. Noone wants ot be like Russia and noone wants to be a puppet of Russia (at least not willingly). I havent seen anyone yet expressing their desires to become something like russia. Each of them wants to become their own version of what powers Putin has, particularly to suppress opposition. The game Putin clearly plays, and i agree that most of it is behind closed doors/the proverbial curtain, is to separate EU from USA (or NATO), in order to deal with each threat separately, particularly Europe, since it is much closer to the (possible) sphere of influence of Putin. Once the transatlantic relations are severed, once EU isnt an entity anymore he can deal with each country separately, because all of them have unique characteristics in their political landscape.

Thats why i said "divide et impera". Putin doesnt want Europe to become a part of Russia necessarily. All he wants is for everybody to become a bully like Russia. Once the schoolyard is full of bullies and you are by fast the strongest, the situation becomes quite stable, predictable and favourable for yourself.

I want however to point out again, each nationalist r-w-pop movement resents each other nationalist r-w-pop movement basically. What unites them are the disdain for currently established political powers and their policies. They dont have much common ground and this fact will haunt them sooner or later. Le Pen wants to make "la grande nation" great again, Meuthen wants to focus on Germany. They dont like each other (s views) they like the fact that they fight their establishment too.

[abaris]

Thats why i said "divide et impera". Putin doesnt want Europe to become a part of Russia necessarily. All he wants is for everybody to become a bully like Russia. Once the schoolyard is full of bullies and you are by fast the strongest, the situation becomes quite stable, predictable and favourable for yourself.

Both want nationalism to grow stronger. A lot of rather small nations to play ball with at their leisure, not a strong united block of more than 500 million people.

[Deltabravo]

Just watched PM May resign and have a sob as she did so.   

So, the choice to replace her is Boris Johnson, who is a whackjob, and Dominic Raab who thinks that the only Brexit deal on offer is worse than staying in the EU.   Oh, and some other people will run as well.

Apparently, the fact that the Liberal Democrats made huge gains in the local elections because Brexit is proving to be impossible on any basis and the Liberal Democrats are the only party to support staying in the EU is being taken by some to mean that we must all support a much stronger and robust position on leaving the EU because, if you ignore the five million people who signed an on line petition, the million who marched on Parliament and the nearly 50% of the population who voted to remain three years ago, this all shows that we must accept the democratic will and leave the EU. 

Oh, my head hurts whenever I observe the UK political scene. This comes from a policy of education advocated by Sir Francis Bacon.  He advocated the notion that it is wasteful to educate anyone beyond the level of education needed for them to do the job they will be doing in life. That was in the 1600's and that has led to the develoment of a society in which virtually no one outside of academic circles has a clue about politics, philosophy, economics or much of anything becuase most were booted out of school at age 16 and if they didn't,they then systematically learned less and less about less and less until they got into the job they were intended for by their class background.  

What a place.

[Mathilda]

The US might not be as anti-EU as Russia, but they are most definitely more concerned about making the UK's culture more consistent with the theocracy they want for America. After all, we speak the same language and this is more of an issue in this age of social media. This means pushing the UK more towards the right and a consequence of this is to promote nationalism. Hence Brexit.

This then leaves the UK vulnerable and opens it up to the weaker US standards that it must accept if it is to have a trade agreement with the US. This results in greater profits. Rinse and repeat for all the other countries in the EU with troublesome standards that stop US goods being sold there.

The US and Russia might have different motivations but their aim is the same and the end result is the same. The destruction of the EU. Europe has always been a battle ground between the US and Russia. The US has done business with the west and manipulated through capitalism while Russia has invaded the east. But the European Union threatens to push back both sides.

[Minimalist]

Bye, Terry.

[Mathilda]

I'm trying to decide which one I am.

[Minimalist]

I'm sure Trumpolini will have some sage advice for her when he gets there.

[Mathilda]

I'm sure Trumpolini will have some sage advice for her when he gets there.

Oh yes, this will be funny

[Mathilda]

Deal or no deal: what next for Brexit, the Tories and the country?

Are we on the road to no deal?

It certainly looks a lot more likely than it did at the start of the week. Champions of Johnson and Raab hope they might convince the EU27 to offer a much looser relationship, based around a Canada-style free-trade deal and, crucially, to ditch the backstop.

Failing that, they could try to take Britain out without a deal. There has not been a majority for that approach in parliament, but the hard Brexiters believe a strong showing by Farage’s party will shift the balance. Certainly, backbenchers who masterminded the last parliamentary manoeuvres to block no deal, including Nick Boles and Yvette Cooper, doubt whether they would be able to do so again.

Boris Johnson: UK will leave EU in October, deal or no deal

Johnson is the favourite among Conservative members to take over as prime minister by the last week of July, but he will face competition from as many as 20 rivals.

We're fucked.

Although The Guardian is running an article about how the underdog often wins, but that's probably just so we don't all slash our wrists.

[Minimalist]

Johnson is the favourite among Conservative members to take over as prime minister by the last week of July

I dont' think there is a conservative anywhere who is not a complete asshole.

[Deesse23]

Johnson? PM? you are fucked, indeed.

[Mathilda]

On the plus side ... Scottish Independence and back in the EU! Move up here from England and Wales while you can.