NDEs

[adey67]

Rats go to heaven confirmed

If you're talking about Roman Catholic clergy I concur 100%

[Kathryn E]

Hi, thank you for the welcome and sorry for making my intro thread a discussion thread.  I thought it would be uninteresting if it was just me saying hi, so I thought I just kind of turned it into a discussion.  I wanted to start off by saying that I don't believe that NDEs or any spiritual experience are actual evidence, not in scientific terms, anyway.  I do not believe there is any proof of spirituality or God in purely scientific terms.  I think experience of God and understanding of God is based on belief or trust, but not evidence.  I do think, however, there is scientific evidence and spiritual evidence, but that's another story. 

What in your opinion is the most convincing NDE report? 
Now before you proceed you must understand that if this 'report' is not accompanied by signed witness statements from all those precent in the operating theatre then it is not a report, it's a story.

I wouldn't say there is more credible or less credible, since I don't tend to view NDEs in terms of those terms.  Almost all of them are aligned with my experiences on the other side as well and I have very rarely found ones that aren't.  However, if it's data you want, I would read Anita Moorjani's story or "report".  She died of cancer in a hospital and was formally pronounced dead by the doctors.  Afterwards, she was able to get the medical records from the hospital to verify her experience with Dr. Jeffrey Long of NDERF.  You can actually pretty easily contact Dr. Jeffrey or Jodi Long for an interview, and I'm sure they have far more accounts of people who have sent in their medical records to verify their experiences.  

Anita Moorjani:
https://www.nderf.org/Experiences/1anita_m_nde.html
https://www.nderf.org/NDERF/Articles/ani...herb_w.htm

Anita Moorjani's Book "Dying to be Me":  https://www.amazon.com/Dying-Be-Me-Journ...233&sr=8-1

Eben Alexander? Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

I know and I really don't know how to explain this and I find it really disheartening.  I figured this would probably come up, and I feel badly about bringing up his NDE now.

I think our brains are amazing organs and oxygen deprivation and/or drugs can trigger all manner of “experiences”.  What people claim as NDEs are just one example of our brains doing brain stuff, just like dreams are our brains doing brain stuff. There’s not a whole lot of difference except the state of the rest of our body. 
Besides, religious/spiritual people experience NDEs in a quasi religious manner and each religion experiences their own religion.  How often does a Muslim NDE see Jesus?  Did your NDE show you a Hindu experience or was it in common with your knowledge of a western religion?

I can recall several NDEs or spiritual experiences where Muslims see Jesus.  Jesus, as far as I know, is one of the most reported religious figures seen, if not the most reported one.  My vision and NDE contained a lot of Christian themes, but I believe that is, in part, because I grew up having huge issues with Christianity and that I needed to heal from the issues I had from growing up in the church.  There is one woman, Dr. Yvonne Kason, who has died several times and her experiences contain Christian and Hindu themes together.  One person's NDE I know of was a Westerner who saw Jesus turn into Buddha.

Dr Yvonne Kason's NDEs and STEs:  

  

Former Muslim sees Jesus:



Women sees Jesus turn into Buddha:

G'day Kathryn, and welcome to the forum.       

Firstly, there are no such things as God or gods.    They're simply 
figments of people's fertile imaginations, and there's never been 
any viable proof of their existence in humankind's written history, 
beginning between 550,000 and 750,000 years ago.

There's also no such thing as NDEs; once again they're just a figment
of people's fertile imaginations, or as a result of psychotropic drugs
such as  Ketamine, a common dissociative anesthetic.

Thank you for the welcome  It could be that humans are making it all up hoping to escape the fear of death or something, or we have overactive imaginations that love storytelling.  Or it could be that maybe there is some form of spirituality and humans are trying their best to document and explain this through various religions.  I can't, personally, on a statistical level, lump every NDE or spiritual experience into the category of hallucination, drug use, overactive imagination, or brain fart.  Nancy Rynes was a former atheist who took no drugs that would've caused any hallucination and came back from a profound spiritual experience.




Anyway, for those interested, here's some articles on NDEs from credible scientific journals:

Journal of Near-Death Studies
https://iands.org/research/publications/...udies.html

Near-Death Experiences Evidence for their Reality
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6172100/

Near-Death Experiences – Academic Publications
https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-stud...lications/

NDEs Explored in Peer-Reviewed Study
https://www.jpost.com/health-and-wellnes...cle-703703

Guidelines and standards for the study of death and recalled experiences of death
https://nyaspubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com...nyas.14740

A Comparative Analysis of Japanese and Western NDEs
https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-stud...n-JNDS.pdf

AWARE—Awareness during Resuscitation—A prospective study
https://www.resuscitationjournal.com/art...4/fulltext


Here's also Dr. Raymond Moody, who is one of the most prominent researchers alive today:




Some good Youtube Channels:

Shaman Oaks
https://www.youtube.com/@ShamanOaks

Non Duality Podcast
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGHcFif...VmmL1mVL1w

Next Level Soul
https://www.youtube.com/@NextLevelSoul

[Dānu]

[Dom]

Hi, thank you for the welcome and sorry for making my intro thread a discussion thread.  I thought it would be uninteresting if it was just me saying hi, so I thought I just kind of turned it into a discussion.  I wanted to start off by saying that I don't believe that NDEs or any spiritual experience are actual evidence, not in scientific terms, anyway.  I do not believe there is any proof of spirituality or God in purely scientific terms.  I think experience of God and understanding of God is based on belief or trust, but not evidence.  I do think, however, there is scientific evidence and spiritual evidence, but that's another story. 

What in your opinion is the most convincing NDE report? 
Now before you proceed you must understand that if this 'report' is not accompanied by signed witness statements from all those precent in the operating theatre then it is not a report, it's a story.

I wouldn't say there is more credible or less credible, since I don't tend to view NDEs in terms of those terms.  Almost all of them are aligned with my experiences on the other side as well and I have very rarely found ones that aren't.  However, if it's data you want, I would read Anita Moorjani's story or "report".  She died of cancer in a hospital and was formally pronounced dead by the doctors.  Afterwards, she was able to get the medical records from the hospital to verify her experience with Dr. Jeffrey Long of NDERF.  You can actually pretty easily contact Dr. Jeffrey or Jodi Long for an interview, and I'm sure they have far more accounts of people who have sent in their medical records to verify their experiences.  

Anita Moorjani:
https://www.nderf.org/Experiences/1anita_m_nde.html
https://www.nderf.org/NDERF/Articles/ani...herb_w.htm

Anita Moorjani's Book "Dying to be Me":  https://www.amazon.com/Dying-Be-Me-Journ...233&sr=8-1

Eben Alexander? Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

I know and I really don't know how to explain this and I find it really disheartening.  I figured this would probably come up, and I feel badly about bringing up his NDE now.

I think our brains are amazing organs and oxygen deprivation and/or drugs can trigger all manner of “experiences”.  What people claim as NDEs are just one example of our brains doing brain stuff, just like dreams are our brains doing brain stuff. There’s not a whole lot of difference except the state of the rest of our body. 
Besides, religious/spiritual people experience NDEs in a quasi religious manner and each religion experiences their own religion.  How often does a Muslim NDE see Jesus?  Did your NDE show you a Hindu experience or was it in common with your knowledge of a western religion?

I can recall several NDEs or spiritual experiences where Muslims see Jesus.  Jesus, as far as I know, is one of the most reported religious figures seen, if not the most reported one.  My vision and NDE contained a lot of Christian themes, but I believe that is, in part, because I grew up having huge issues with Christianity and that I needed to heal from the issues I had from growing up in the church.  There is one woman, Dr. Yvonne Kason, who has died several times and her experiences contain Christian and Hindu themes together.  One person's NDE I know of was a Westerner who saw Jesus turn into Buddha.

Dr Yvonne Kason's NDEs and STEs:  

  

Former Muslim sees Jesus:



Women sees Jesus turn into Buddha:

G'day Kathryn, and welcome to the forum.       

Firstly, there are no such things as God or gods.    They're simply 
figments of people's fertile imaginations, and there's never been 
any viable proof of their existence in humankind's written history, 
beginning between 550,000 and 750,000 years ago.

There's also no such thing as NDEs; once again they're just a figment
of people's fertile imaginations, or as a result of psychotropic drugs
such as  Ketamine, a common dissociative anesthetic.

Thank you for the welcome  It could be that humans are making it all up hoping to escape the fear of death or something, or we have overactive imaginations that love storytelling.  Or it could be that maybe there is some form of spirituality and humans are trying their best to document and explain this through various religions.  I can't, personally, on a statistical level, lump every NDE or spiritual experience into the category of hallucination, drug use, overactive imagination, or brain fart.  Nancy Rynes was a former atheist who took no drugs that would've caused any hallucination and came back from a profound spiritual experience.




Anyway, for those interested, here's some articles on NDEs from credible scientific journals:

Journal of Near-Death Studies
https://iands.org/research/publications/...udies.html

Near-Death Experiences Evidence for their Reality
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6172100/

Near-Death Experiences – Academic Publications
https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-stud...lications/

NDEs Explored in Peer-Reviewed Study
https://www.jpost.com/health-and-wellnes...cle-703703

Guidelines and standards for the study of death and recalled experiences of death
https://nyaspubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com...nyas.14740

A Comparative Analysis of Japanese and Western NDEs
https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-stud...n-JNDS.pdf

AWARE—Awareness during Resuscitation—A prospective study
https://www.resuscitationjournal.com/art...4/fulltext


Here's also Dr. Raymond Moody, who is one of the most prominent researchers alive today:




Some good Youtube Channels:

Shaman Oaks
https://www.youtube.com/@ShamanOaks

Non Duality Podcast
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGHcFif...VmmL1mVL1w

Next Level Soul
https://www.youtube.com/@NextLevelSoul

Looks like you went full tilt down a rabbit hole that would reaffirm what you perhaps perceived.

[Alan V]

1) People who seem to have died are sometimes misdiagnosed as dead. They are really still alive.

2) It seems fairly obvious that anyone who really died would not come back to life.

3) Therefore anything such misdiagnosed people experience can't be information about what death is really like.

4) Every night we think that our dreams are really happening to us until we wake up again. Even then, some people find their dreams confusing because of that feeling that they are real as they are happening. But all that really happened was that their brain electrical activation and chemical modulation changed, and that the information they were processing was from inside their own heads instead of from the outside world.

This is the most economical explanation for NDEs. Hypothesizing a whole other spiritual level of reality to explain NDEs is not economical at all, especially based on some people's merely subjective experiences. Only among the mystically-minded are subjective experiences considered veridical.

[Kathryn E]

Looks like you went full tilt down a rabbit hole that would reaffirm what you perhaps perceived.

Is that not what you're doing here on this forum as well?

[Dom]

Looks like you went full tilt down a rabbit hole that would reaffirm what you perhaps perceived.

Is that not what you're doing here on this forum as well?

Quite the opposite, I come here to look at other people's thoughts and perceptions, not to reaffirm my own thinking. I try my damndest to keep this place from turning into an echo chamber.

For most of us, atheism is not a topic anymore, we talk about everything but atheism. Atheism is a tiny, relatively unimportant  part of who we are and how we think. The reason we discuss all kinds of things here is that we don't care to hear endless preaching and praises of god, we get enough of that in real life.

[Cavebear]

1) People who seem to have died are sometimes misdiagnosed as dead.  They are really still alive.  

2) It seems fairly obvious that anyone who really died would not come back to life.

3) Therefore anything such misdiagnosed people experience can't be information about what death is really like.

4) Every night we think that our dreams are really happening to us until we wake up again.  Even then, some people find their dreams confusing because of that feeling that they are real as they are happening.  But all that really happened was that their brain electrical activation and chemical modulation changed, and that the information they were processing was from inside their own heads instead of from the outside world.

This is the most economical explanation for NDEs.  Hypothesizing a whole other spiritual level of reality to explain NDEs is not economical at all, especially based on some people's merely subjective experiences.  Only among the mystically-minded are subjective experiences considered veridical.

I got a college degree in the 90s (yeah, I had to go back to get it) and retired in 2006. Yet I continually have dreams about having to take Final Exams in a couple of classes (that of course I had not attended) and still worked in an office (a mishmash of all previous offices). And sometimes, I am trying to save my cats from bears. The internal reality of the dreams is unshakable regardless of the actual illogic.

We humans have a waking sense of reality (and that may be arguable). I sometimes wonder if what we consider a "dream" state is the actual daily existence of other animals. For example, what is "real" to a cat playing with a toy mouse? What does an AI "think" when it is not being asked a question? Does a praying mantis "know" it is eating a grasshopper?

[Dom]

 I sometimes wonder if what we consider a "dream" state is the actual daily existence of other animals.  For example, what is "real" to a cat playing with a toy mouse?  

Regarding your recurring thoughts about humans versus animals in the forum, I really, really want you to watch this. It was posted by Min in another thread. Take the time, it will give you pause for lots of thought. 

[Dancefortwo]

Looks like you went full tilt down a rabbit hole that would reaffirm what you perhaps perceived.

Is that not what you're doing here on this forum as well?

I'm assuming this thread is now a discussion thread and not in the introduction area.

You do realize people are not dead when they have NDE's.   That's why they are called NEAR death experiences. 

Transcranial magnetic stimulation  (TMS)  which is different than MRI brain scans and other devices used during operations, a TMS can detect even smaller, tinier bits of brain activity than ever before.  So patients whose doctors thought were completely brain dead or had physcally died actually had something going on. Their hearts may have stopped but the brain is still active.

If you can find someone in the world who had never, ever in their life heard of Jesus or anything about the Christian religion  but still saw Jesus "In the light"  during an NDE,  you might have something there but most people in the world have heard of this guy somewhere. Certainly Muslims have.  But in a culture totally empty and devoid of Christianity, a culture cut off from the world,  maybe some undiscovered tribe in the Amazon jungle, you're not going to have people experience Jesus or seeing Jesus in their dreams or in an NDE.

[Dānu]

This does remind me of a point a member of AF brought up a while back. Death is usually defined as the permanent cessation of life functions. Yet someone that is ressurected is referred to as having come back from the dead. But if death is permanent cessation, and the individual's normal functioning returns, then they were never technically dead. Yet if they were never dead, what does resurrection even mean?

[Cavebear]

 I sometimes wonder if what we consider a "dream" state is the actual daily existence of other animals.  For example, what is "real" to a cat playing with a toy mouse?  

Regarding your recurring thoughts about humans versus animals in the forum, I really, really want you to watch this. It was posted by Min in another thread. Take the time, it will give you pause for lots of thought. 

I got 16 minutes into it and was worn out. I don't disagree with anything De Grasse or Hawkins said. It was just too much to try to keep in my mind at one time.

For example, I know we aren't at the center of the universe, Center is where you are in some perspective. I am at the center of my neighborhood. But the person down the street can also say the same thing. De Grasse (whom I admire equal to Sagan for "explaining") discussed "the center of the universe" mis-concept.

I have trouble with The Big Bang. If it caused an expansion, I can only imagine it expanding spherically. And every sphere expanding or not) has an outside edge. Which suggests to me that there is some galaxy at an "edge". But De Grasse (and other theorists) say that every place in the universe sees "space" all around them equally. Which suggests an infinite existence of spacetime. Yet starting at a singularity.

This all gives me "brain-bumps". Entangled but separated quarks ("spooky action at a distance", as Einstein once said) is hard enough to imagine. That all places in the universe are all both the center and yet none are and there is no edge, is even worse.

All I can say is that the next intelligent species to come along had better be able to think (and maybe see) in 4D!

Thank you for the link. I sure won't sleep well tonight, but I have it bookmarked for future listening to eventually the end of the discussion.

[airportkid]

A finite universe with no edges is a hard concept to grasp, but here's an analogy that might help:  the field of eyesight vision is finite but has no edge.  Such an edge would be undetectable to the eye because perceiving an edge would put the edge into the field of vision.  So the field of vision cannot have an edge; yet is, of course, absolutely finite.

Attempting to envision the universe as some sort of sphere is imposing dimensional constraints it doesn't appear to have.  The tesseract, a "cube" of 4 dimensions, is a real geometrical concept that cannot be physically represented.  The universe's expansion is accelerating, against all intuition.  Not being able to fully comprehend the universe doesn't impair our functionality within it, just as not being able to see the edge of our field of vision does not impair our ability to see.

[Minimalist]

but I have it bookmarked for future listening to eventually the end of the discussion.

If it makes you feel better I watched half on one night and half on the next.  Way too much to absorb in one sitting.

[Bucky Ball]

Looks like you went full tilt down a rabbit hole that would reaffirm what you perhaps perceived.

Is that not what you're doing here on this forum as well?

Not at all. There is no evidence for any of the gods. None.
Catholics actually buy into that the ancient mythological Babylonian storm/war god is the "Father" of the Jesus the church later invented.
You praise the war god (Lord god of "hosts"), ... a "host" is an ancient battle formation.
It appears that you're yet another "cafeteria Catholic" who doesn't actually know much your own religion,
and picks and choses what you accept about that faith. That's OK. As long as one does not attempt to impose those opinions on others. I doubt and 2 Catholics believe much in common. Some of the nuns in my great-aunt's community go to "drumming ceremonies" instead of mass. St. Paul tells your members that “By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.” Ephesians 2: 8-9. We just never got the gift ... which is very common, and explained by science. The most effective predictor of the religion humans practice is birth culture, not a "gift" from the Babylonian war god. For most of the history (supposed *history*) of the *Biblical Jews*
they did not buy into "life after death". They thought the dead become "shades" and existed in Sheol. St Paul tells you he thought the same thing. "Put on immortality" (he thought only the saved were immortal). Luke : Luke 24:37 But they were startled and terrified, and thought they were seeing a "shade". (NOT a modern day "ghost"). They did not recognize him. Even after he said "Peace be with you". They were Jews. There is no instance ever of a Jew "coming back to life" ... ever, in Hebrew culture.

Genesis 3:19 says, "For dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return". God breathed life into the man, not a soul. While there are examples of exceptions to this, in 1 Samuel 28:15, Saul calls the Witch of Endor, and she conjures up the shade of Samuel, who is angry to be disturbed. He was in a "dormant" state". not a "blissful" state. Conjuring shades was forbidden. Apart from the magic, there was just no cultural content of the ideal of an individual ("happy", or "sad") state of immortality. That does not mean immortality was not present. We'll look at that later.

Psalm 39 :
"Turn your gaze away from me, that I may smile again,
before I depart, and am no more"

Psalm 115 :
The dead do not praise the Lord,
nor do any that go down into silence".

However ALL the dead, both good and bad, were thought to go to an underground region called "Sheol". And Sheol is referenced in mostly the Wisdom texts. It's certainly NOT where God lives. Psalm 6 : "For in death there is no remembrance of you, in Sheol, who can give you praise ?"

However, ....
The Biblical texts were written, (assembled) by the upper-class priests. In Canaan , ancestors remained powerful, after death, and had to be fed, and placated. Because of it's threat to monotheism, shamanism and witchcraft had to be suppressed. The fact it had to be suppressed, means it was widespread, and perceived as a threat. Saul expelled the mediums and the wizards. When the Witch of Endor conjures Samuel's "shade", Saul asks the witch, "What do you see". She answers, "I see a DIVINE being, (the word is "elohim"), coming up out of the ground. (Only the witch could *see* or perceive the shade). Saul asks "What does he look like ?". She describes him. And the text then says, (just as the text in the New Testament does, (ie describes *recognition*) about the "Road to Emmaus" incident), "So Saul knew it was Samuel...etc" because of the description. The DEAD SHADE'S IDENTITY HAD TO BE INFERRED. In Hebrew culture, the dead did not have recognizable human shapes. or appearances. Read that again, please. The identity of dead shades was not apparent. The "shade" of Jesus also was not recognized, when they said they saw it. Next, if a shade is a "divine being", it speaks volumes about what that means to them. If a dead human's shade is of the SAME essential nature as other divine beings, (and there were many, in the polytheistic Hebrew culture), then it calls into question our notion of "supernatural". In our culture a "god" is perceived as "up there", watching from above, powerful from on high, riding the clouds of heaven. Obviously from the Samuel's shade remark we see that was not true of the Hebrews. Instead of saying "super-natural", it would be more correct to say "other than normally natural", as it denoted an equal, or equivalency of power and status. There is no hierarchical paradigm implied). (from my old "resurrection" paper agreeing with Dr. BB Scott's (Christian seminary professor of NT), "The Trouble With Resurrection". )

[Bucky Ball]

Is that not what you're doing here on this forum as well?

Quite the opposite, I come here to look at other people's thoughts and perceptions, not to reaffirm my own thinking. I try my damndest to keep this place from turning into an echo chamber.

For most of us, atheism is not a topic anymore, we talk about everything but atheism. Atheism is a tiny, relatively unimportant  part of who we are and how we think. The reason we discuss all kinds of things here is that we don't care to hear endless preaching and praises of god, we get enough of that in real life.

Some of us are not even atheists. An incoherent (and ancient) position requires no response or statement of response.
It's why we call ourselves "igtheists". Ignosticism or igtheism is the idea that the question of the existence of God is meaningless because the word "God" has no coherent and unambiguous definition. The qualities and properties which religionists ascribe to their gods are contradictory (for example some theologies say their gods are "eternal" (timeless) ... yet have their deities *doing things*. Actions require time.

[Inkubus]

...She died of cancer in a hospital and was formally pronounced dead by the doctors.  Afterwards, she was able to get the medical records from the hospital to verify her experience with Dr. Jeffrey Long of NDERF.

Medical records you say, excellent. Where are they? And where are the statements by doctors and family members?

The 191 page inspirational tome tells how Moorjani fought against Stage IV lymphoma for almost four years, ultimately a terminal disease that spread from the base of her skull, which traveled over her neck and down to her abdomen. Her body was riddled with malignant tumors, “some the size of lemons”, she recalls.

Now in the ICU and having been in a coma for nearly 20 hours, the forty-four year old woman’s vital organs began to fail. In fact, she was ultimately pronounced dead... As a result of her near death experience, and the publicity generated by her book, Moorjani now speaks at conferences and events around the world to share her insights gained from her Near Death Experience.* Bullshit

* As of 2023 Moorjani's net worth is 5 million dollars.

Kathryn, if promoting this trash makes you happy then have at it, but trash it is.

[Dom]

Regarding your recurring thoughts about humans versus animals in the forum, I really, really want you to watch this. It was posted by Min in another thread. Take the time, it will give you pause for lots of thought. 

I got 16 minutes into it and was worn out.  I don't disagree with anything De Grasse or Hawkins said.  It was just too much to try to keep in my mind at one time.

For example, I know we aren't at the center of the universe,  Center is where you are in some perspective.  I am at the center of my neighborhood.  But the person down the street can also say the same thing.  De Grasse (whom I admire equal to Sagan for "explaining") discussed "the center of the universe" mis-concept.  

I have trouble with The Big Bang.  If it caused an expansion, I can only imagine it expanding spherically.  And every sphere expanding or not) has an outside edge.    Which suggests to me that there is some galaxy at an "edge".  But De Grasse (and other theorists) say that every place in the universe sees "space" all around them equally.  Which suggests an infinite existence of spacetime.  Yet starting at a singularity.

This all gives me "brain-bumps".  Entangled but separated quarks ("spooky action at a distance", as Einstein once said) is hard enough to imagine.  That all places in the universe are all both the center and yet none are and there is no edge, is even worse.  

All I can say is that the next intelligent species to come along had better be able to think (and maybe see) in 4D!

Thank you for the link.  I sure won't sleep well tonight, but I have it bookmarked for future listening to eventually the end of the discussion.

Let me know what you think once you do. I really want you personally to hear the whole thing, especially their speculations about aliens and animals etc.

[Bucky Ball]

...She died of cancer in a hospital and was formally pronounced dead by the doctors.  Afterwards, she was able to get the medical records from the hospital to verify her experience with Dr. Jeffrey Long of NDERF.

Medical records you say, excellent. Where are they? And where are the statements by doctors and family members?

The 191 page inspirational tome tells how Moorjani fought against Stage IV lymphoma for almost four years, ultimately a terminal disease that spread from the base of her skull, which traveled over her neck and down to her abdomen. Her body was riddled with malignant tumors, “some the size of lemons”, she recalls.

Now in the ICU and having been in a coma for nearly 20 hours, the forty-four year old woman’s vital organs began to fail. In fact, she was ultimately pronounced dead... As a result of her near death experience, and the publicity generated by her book, Moorjani now speaks at conferences and events around the world to share her insights gained from her Near Death Experience.* Bullshit

* As of 2023 Moorjani's net worth is 5 million dollars.

Kathryn, if promoting this trash makes you happy then have at it, but trash it is.

Pronouncing someone dead in a hospital is a very informal process.
If they are on a monitor it may just be seeing asystole for a brief period. Otherwise it's just a very brief "yup they seem to not be breathing, or responding right now". For busy hospitals, sometimes it's even just a nurse, and not a doc. Regaining activity after an apparent episode of non-response is fairly common, medically. No human has ever been actually really died, and came back to life. Not once. I guarantee the "researchers" you list are considered to be "quacks" by the medical community. NDEs are NEVER discussed by Neurologists or Neurosurgeons, in 99.999% of hospital settings. I have never once heard a staff discussion of it. It's simply a subject that holds no interest for real scientists. The experience is fully explained by the deoxygenation of a brain that may be rarely interrupted and temporarily reversed.

Furthermore, it's like the incorrupt body of the nun in Missouri or wherever, in the news.
If the gods can do that rare "miracle" or any other *miracle*, on a dead person, then why can't they be bothered to cure the 5 year-old
terminally ill child who is dying from cancer or answer any other *prayer* the character in the NT said he guaranteed to answer. LOL.

[Dom]

Furthermore, it's like the incorrupt body of the nun in Missouri or wherever, in the news.
If the gods can do that rare  "miracle" or any other *miracle*, on a dead person, then why can't they be bothered to cure the 5 year-old
terminally ill child who is dying from cancer or answer any other *prayer* the character in the NT said he guaranteed to answer. LOL.

[Dancefortwo]

 I would read Anita Moorjani's story

Well, I read the wikipedia page on her and this caught my attention.

  "In January 2016, Moorjani's case attracted the attention of Dr. Oz, who scrutinized her medical records, and subsequently invited her to be on his show." 

 

Oh, ok. Dr Oz, the tv quack.

And then this:

 

  The oncologist haematologist T.K. Chan, who treated Moorjani at the critical stage of her illness, ascribed her recovery to the draining of her lungs carried out by medical specialists after she was admitted to hospital, followed by chemotherapy which she had refused for four years. Chan stated "with lymphoma, it's never too late" and "Hodgkin's disease is quite curable... it can have a dramatic response to chemotherapy"

The thing with NDE's is that vital information is conveniently left out.  Details are not forthcoming.  There's the story of a woman who had an NDE while having brain surgery and claimed she had an out of body experience in which her body flew to the exact place the nurses had placed her purse and other belongings. After the NDE she claimed it was proof of her out of body experience.  

 What was left out of this story?????  She had preliminary tests at the hospital before her surgery and nurses, per hospital regulations, showed her where they were going to keep her purse and coat while she was being operated on.  Nurses did this same thing for to me when I had a pre-planned c-section. 

Astronauts who used to train in those centrifuge machines that would spin them around at high speeds would commonly have OBE's because the blood on the brain was being moved too far into the center core of the brain as the astronauts were being spun around.

The devil's in the details.       

[Minimalist]

Furthermore, it's like the incorrupt body of the nun in Missouri or wherever, in the news.
If the gods can do that rare "miracle" or any other *miracle*, on a dead person, then why can't they be bothered to cure the 5 year-old
terminally ill child who is dying from cancer or answer any other *prayer* the character in the NT said he guaranteed to answer. LOL.

I bet the kid lacks "faith" or some such shit, Buck!

[Bucky Ball]

 I would read Anita Moorjani's story

Well, I read the wikipedia page on her and this caught my attention.

  "In January 2016, Moorjani's case attracted the attention of Dr. Oz, who scrutinized her medical records, and subsequently invited her to be on his show." 

 

Oh, ok. Dr Oz, the tv quack.

And then this:

 

  The oncologist haematologist T.K. Chan, who treated Moorjani at the critical stage of her illness, ascribed her recovery to the draining of her lungs carried out by medical specialists after she was admitted to hospital, followed by chemotherapy which she had refused for four years. Chan stated "with lymphoma, it's never too late" and "Hodgkin's disease is quite curable... it can have a dramatic response to chemotherapy"

The thing with NDE's is that vital information is conveniently left out.  Details are not forthcoming.  There's the story of a woman who had an NDE while having brain surgery and claimed she had an out of body experience in which her body flew to the exact place the nurses had placed her purse and other belongings. After the NDE she claimed it was proof of her out of body experience.  

 What was left out of this story?????  She had preliminary tests at the hospital before her surgery and nurses, per hospital regulations, showed her where they were going to keep her purse and coat while she was being operated on.  Nurses did this same thing for to me when I had a pre-planned c-section. 

Astronauts who used to train in those centrifuge machines that would spin them around at high speeds would commonly have OBE's because the blood on the brain was being moved too far into the center core of the brain as the astronauts were being spun around.

The devil's in the details.       

A number of my cousins on my mom's side have had Hodgkin's. They all recovered. There seems to be a genetic predisposition in that side of the family for it, but at least the treatments are very very successful. I think it's 90 some percent. Very treatable.
Nice to see you back

[Huggy Bear]

On a similar topic to NDE, what do you guys think about end of life visioning which most hospice nurses will attest to? 

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[Alan V]

On a similar topic to NDE, what do you guys think about end of life visioning which most hospice nurses will attest to? 

I am not surprised that dying people dream about dying.