The dance around the debt limit

[Deesse23]

"Nutrition assistance"? Pssh. <adjusts monocle and picks up tea cup, pinky extended>

I'm convinced that the Rs have no shame at this point.

I’m still amazed at the cruelty of Rs and their obsession that someone might get a free meal that doesn’t “deserve” it.  I’d rather feed a whole town than let one child starve.  That’s just me, though, being a bleeding heart librul!

In my part of the world it's called "decent human being"

[Szuchow]

"Nutrition assistance"? Pssh. <adjusts monocle and picks up tea cup, pinky extended>

I'm convinced that the Rs have no shame at this point.

I’m still amazed at the cruelty of Rs and their obsession that someone might get a free meal that doesn’t “deserve” it.  I’d rather feed a whole town than let one child starve.  That’s just me, though, being a bleeding heart librul!

He who does not work shall not eat - right wing shit stains like bible when it conform to their views, especially when it allows them to fuck over the poor.

[Dānu]

I don't think that I've been as eager to get my social security check as I am this month.

[airportkid]

I don't think that I've been as eager to get my social security check as I am this month.

I could be naive (a possibility given what we've seen the GOP actually do) - but there're just shy of 70 million people receiving some form of social security payments, or 21% of the population.  1 in 5 people.  Even the GOP infected gov't would consider the repercussions from 1/5 of a gun saturated population suddenly deprived their income a risk too grave to allow to happen.  But I've been too optimistic at times before, so we'll see.

[Fireball]

I don't think that I've been as eager to get my social security check as I am this month.

I could be naive (a possibility given what we've seen the GOP actually do) - but there're just shy of 70 million people receiving some form of social security payments, or 21% of the population.  1 in 5 people.  Even the GOP infected gov't would consider the repercussions from 1/5 of a gun saturated population suddenly deprived their income a risk too grave to allow to happen.  But I've been too optimistic at times before, so we'll see.

Meal Team 6 would rather shoot a large number of "them Damn Commie Dems" than shoot the people who are actually causing them harm. They've been conned, big time. 

[Cavebear]

Historically, we have been a Middle-class nation (among non-slaves, I recognize that). Some filthy-rich and some in poverty, but mostly Middle-class. And from what I've read of the past, we mostly helped our neighbors through religious and secular charities. FDR organized that helpful desire through Govt actions to get us through times of troubles to keep helpful giving to continue.

"Helping Thy Neighbor" is not just a religious idea. It came from civil people recognizing that difficult things happen to good people sometimes and they deserved some support. Disease, handicaps, lack of skills, etc can hit anyone from birth to death. The more fortunate of us have a duty in a civil society to aid those failing at life.

This is not a Communist thought. It might by more Communitarian. But it is mostly just humanist. We have the best civil society when the fewest members are in distress. I think a strength of the US is equality. At least the general concept of it. And I think we are losing that.

I grew up when civil rights were improving. When it seemed like we were getting better at accepting differences among each other, but also understanding basic similarities. And now we seem to be back-tracking on that.

I blame conservatives. As they started to sense they were losing official and social control of the government, they changed from policy concerns to emotional fears. They feared they couldn't "compete". They feared they would lose jobs. They feared they would lose control of governmental power. They feared their would (gasp!) lose their daughters to foreigners.

I understand some value in understanding and respecting the past. But a desire to live in the past while in the present makes little sense. The world is not as it was 50 years ago (never mind 200 years ago). But that's where "old white guys" seem to want to return to. Women made babies, poorer people just sufferred quietly, the minorities didn't vote, and men were in charge of everything.

That's all gone now. I think the conservatives (especially the MAGA nuts) are fighting their last battles. It may take a couple more elections, but I think they will be gone soon.

If my last Presidential vote (some decade or so from now) is for a candidate who looks more to the future than the past, I expect I will joined by the newer generations in looking for progress rather than a desperate and futile return to the past.

[Minimalist]

but mostly Middle-class.

I disagree.  Prior to WWI we were largely an agrarian nation of poor farmers who were at the mercy of the weather and the banks and other assorted rich bastards.  Their children died like flies which meant that women were little more than brood mares because families needed farm hands.  In 1800 the infant ( under 5) mortality rate was just under 50%... by 1900 that had "improved" to a bit over 33%.  And the farmers had it a bit better than the urban dwellers who lived in fire-trap tenements and worked dangerous industrial jobs for as little as the capitalists could pay them.

The transition to a "middle-class"  began after WWII when the GI Bill gave a whole load of those returning GIs the opportunity to go to college and get into professional or managerial jobs as well as the growth of labor unions to protect the work force from the greed of their bosses.

The upper classes, in case you haven't noticed, have been waging war on the middle class since Reagan was elected and they have largely been successful.



The annotated version of that chart is here:  https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/14/busin...tions.html  but the dark line at the bottom represents the total wealth controlled by the bottom half of the population.

Deep down I suspect that the super rich have a desire to turn the US into some version of France in 1788.  They had better remember what happened to those "aristocrats."

[Cavebear]

but mostly Middle-class.

I disagree.  Prior to WWI we were largely an agrarian nation of poor farmers who were at the mercy of the weather and the banks and other assorted rich bastards.  Their children died like flies which meant that women were little more than brood mares because families needed farm hands.  In 1800 the infant ( under 5) mortality rate was just under 50%... by 1900 that had "improved" to a bit over 33%.  And the farmers had it a bit better than the urban dwellers who lived in fire-trap tenements and worked dangerous industrial jobs for as little as the capitalists could pay them.

The transition to a "middle-class"  began after WWII when the GI Bill gave a whole load of those returning GIs the opportunity to go to college and get into professional or managerial jobs as well as the growth of labor unions to protect the work force from the greed of their bosses.

The upper classes, in case you haven't noticed, have been waging war on the middle class since Reagan was elected and they have largely been successful.



The annotated version of that chart is here:  https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/14/busin...tions.html  but the dark line at the bottom represents the total wealth controlled by the bottom half of the population.

Deep down I suspect that the super rich have a desire to turn the US into some version of France in 1788.  They had better remember what happened to those "aristocrats."

I will certainly agree that "middle class" has changed in meaning over a few centuries. It depends on whether you mean actual goods or relative standing at the time. By modern standards, even the upper class lived pretty crappy lives even a century ago.

But lets say "middle class" is defined as having a shelter, a job, and enough food to feed yourself and the brood. A large chunk of the population had that since, well, The Plague. While I sure can't say how many unemployed and homeless there were in 1500, I suspect there weren't that many (because if you were, you just died). And I suspect the percentage of the obscenely rich was lower then, too. So most people were "middle class".

Good thoughts though. Made me think...

[Bucky Ball]

One of THE biggest lies the Republicans are spouting is all the bullshit about "work requirements".
There are already "work requirements" for anyone who is deemed well enough to do that.
The rules are somewhat complicated, but whoever (working for the government) signs up or initiates coverage for someone to receive help,
HAS to already follow the work requirement rules, and that may often include the person seeing various medical providers, counsellors, therapists etc etc etc.
Someone who was already found to be unable to work AT ALL, remains unable to work at all. Nothing has changed.
I seriously doubt the new rules will find anyone who already failed to be eligible, to suddenly be eligible. Maybe a few.
It's still the old racist "welfare queens" they IMAGINE should be working. Republicans who actually know almost nothing about how the process works, sitting around in the all white, old man Freedom Caucus, dreaming up rules that apply to no one, and then taking credit for their invalid concepts they made up from no data.

[Minimalist]

But lets say "middle class" is defined as having a shelter, a job, and enough food to feed yourself and the brood.

That would include every serf, share-cropper, tenant farmer, peasant and even most slaves throughout history. 

The term "middle class" did not even arise until the 18th century when the first impact of the Industrial Revolution began to take hold.


Ingersoll has it right.

“We have already compared the benefits of theology and science. When the theologian governed the world, it was covered with huts and hovels for the many, palaces and cathedrals for the few. To nearly all the children of men, reading and writing were unknown arts. The poor were clad in rags and skins -- they devoured crusts, and gnawed bones. The day of Science dawned, and the luxuries of a century ago are the necessities of to-day. Men in the middle ranks of life have more of the conveniences and elegancies than the princes and kings of the theological times. But above and over all this, is the development of mind. There is more of value in the brain of an average man of to-day -- of a master-mechanic, of a chemist, of a naturalist, of an inventor, than there was in the brain of the world four hundred years ago.

These blessings did not fall from the skies. These benefits did not drop from the outstretched hands of priests. They were not found in cathedrals or behind altars -- neither were they searched for with holy candles. They were not discovered by the closed eyes of prayer, nor did they come in answer to superstitious supplication. They are the children of freedom, the gifts of reason, observation and experience -- and for them all, man is indebted to man.”
― Robert G. Ingersoll

[Minimalist]

So expect two things to happen as a result of this:

https://www.rawstory.com/debt-ceiling-co...e-passage/

House Rules Committee advances debt ceiling deal — setting up passage tomorrow

On Tuesday evening, the House Rules Committee voted by a margin of 7-6 to advance the debt ceiling deal, reported C-SPAN — setting up a vote of the full House tomorrow, and bringing a solution to avert a first-of-its-kind U.S. debt default one step closer.

First, the House will pass the debt ceiling bill - with a large number of republiKKKunt morons voting against it but with most Democrats voting for it.  

Second, the aforementioned republiKKKunt morons will be looking to remove McCarthy as speaker of the house.

This country is a joke.

[Dom]

My military pension is NOT in my bank account this morning. It always is on the first of the month.

[Minimalist]

Check tomorrow.  Monday was a holiday.  Banks were closed.

[Dom]

Check tomorrow.  Monday was a holiday.  Banks were closed.

Never made a difference before. But, you can bet I'll check tomorrow. By then, the bill may also have passed.

[Dānu]

I received my social security. No consolation for you, but maybe that's a good sign.

[Dom]

I received my social security.  No consolation for you, but maybe that's a good sign.

It is a good sign.

[airportkid]

I received my social security ... maybe that's a good sign.

Spent a few minutes in google looking for any time in history that social security payments were in any way curtailed or delayed.  Couldn't find any.

It is true that without legislative action the trust fund will be exhausted not too many years hence, but the remedies for that are things like increasing the annual earnings amount at which contributions cease, actions that have little impact, but need congressional sanction to enact.

As I mentioned in some earlier post, 1 in 5 people in the US receive social security benefits in its various forms, and there are more privately owned guns than people.  With people now so irritated and fearful just ringing a doorbell can get you shot, the reaction to having income abruptly cut off could be cataclysmic.  I think even the cranks in the GOP are dimly aware of how severe the havoc could be and, as has just happened, caved-in to Biden & crew, and the GOP controlled House just passed a bill to cancel, not raise, cancel the debt limit for 2 years.  At this moment the Senate has yet to concur, but the prognosis is that it will.

[Minimalist]

It is true that without legislative action the trust fund will be exhausted not too many years hence, but the remedies for that are things like increasing the annual earnings amount at which contributions cease, actions that have little impact, but need congressional sanction to enact.

The republiKKKunts would rather amputate their own balls with a broken bottle than put any tax increase on their rich leash-holders.

THIS is their mantra.

[Dom]

Check tomorrow.  Monday was a holiday.  Banks were closed.

It's there today. Friday. One day late.

[Minimalist]

Same with my federal pension.

[Dom]

Well. it looks like the repubs are going back on what they negotiated and asking for more and more.

[Minimalist]

Was there ever any doubt?

[Cavebear]

Well. it looks like the repubs are going back on what they negotiated and asking for more and more.

I heard a MAGA Republican on a political channel say basically, "we speak a demand and don't negotiate from there". I think they think the least negotiation is a loss.

[Rhythmcs]

OFC. They've been conditioned by reich wing groomers to believe they have nothing left to negotiate with - and are making their final stand. I'd go so far as to say that as a political movement they're determined to make this untethered fear a reality. To that end, they'll squander every opportunity in order to maintain the illusion that they had none - which is the organizing principle of their group.

[Minimalist]

Personally, I hope they continue to attack Social Security and Medicare.

https://apnews.com/article/social-securi...beac6ef24b

Most oppose Social Security, Medicare cuts: AP-NORC poll

Few Americans would be OK with some ways politicians have suggested to shore up the programs: 79% say they oppose reducing the size of Social Security benefits and 67% are against raising monthly premiums for Medicare. About 65 million older and disabled people access government-sponsored health insurance through Medicare and rely on monthly payments from Social Security.

Instead, a majority — 58% — support the idea of increasing taxes on households making over $400,000 yearly to pay for Medicare, a plan proposed by President Joe Biden last month.

Go for it boys.  Keep telling 'Murricans you will take an axe to those programs.