A Naturalistic World

[Deesse23]

Its an utterly dishonest and at the same time cowardly position. I have zero respect for such ....creatures. 

Wow, you openly dehumanize human beings who have different beliefs than yourself.

Says the person who would do anything to anyone if he thought some superbeing ordered him to. I am not impressed at all. I didnt dehumanize you, you did that all by yourself, by morally removing yourself from human society and sucking up to the orders of a being whose existence you can not demonstrate.

The difference between us is: I would never kill a human being. You would, if told to do so, by your own admission.

[Percie]

Soooo... what's the 'Material' differeance between yourself and some one who jumps/falls off a bridge, as an example say?

Mental health I would suppose. That's an odd choice for a discussion on moral behavior. I've never considered someone who jumps off a bridge to be immoral for doing so.

[Percie]

Says the person who would do anything to anyone if he thought some superbeing ordered him to. I am not impressed at all. I didnt dehumanize you, you did that all by yourself, by morally removing yourself from human society and sucking up to the orders of a being whose existence you can not demonstrate.

Yes, you dehumanized me, and now you're doubling down on it. That's sick. That's the first step toward concentration camps.

The difference between us is: I would never kill a human being. You would, if told to do so, by your own admission.

My religion tells me to love my enemies, and turn the other cheek if struck.

[Vera]

Since when is having no respect for someone "dehumanizing? Respect is earned. All we owe others is to respect their basic human rights. The rest has to be earned and a lot of people fail miserably.

Oh, I know since when! Since one is a small- and nasty-minded angry little man who derives pleasure from trying to antagonize a bunch of people he despises by encroaching on their space and hurling passive-aggressive abuse while playing the victim. What a full and contented life, full of xtian love and charity he must lead. Pity those who have to experience all this love and charity in person. At lesst we can just not read his blatherings.

[Dancefortwo]

  The scientific method shows that a number of health factors are better for those who attend religious services regularly.

Voodoo does the same thing.   Those who practice voodoo, a religion from South Africa and brought over to Haiti, feel much better after a ceremonial service.  They feel less pain and stress because the practice releases endorphans and feel good chemicals.  Yoga does the same thing.  Throw a dart at a world map and go to the local religious services and you'll feel better.    If anything, religion is a chemical dependency that people rely on to give them a nice chemical high once week.    But one can get the same chemical high from other ceremonial  practices. 

I get a chemical high from the ballet classes I take.  There is a long traditional aspect of ballet class that goes back to the 15th century.  A class has quite a lot of ceremony and old customs involved in the barre warm up through to the center work and ending with a formal bow to the ballet master or mistress.    I come out of a class feeling so much better.     Asian martial arts have a similar ritualistic atmosphere.   There's nothing magical about all this.  It's just humans releasing endorphans and dopamine and it doesn't have to involve mythical god stories.

[Bucky Ball]

Yes, you dehumanized me, and now you're doubling down on it. That's sick. That's the first step toward concentration camps.

Wow.
You're granting her, and acknowledging, that she has a great deal of power over you.
Are you really sure you meant to let that cat out of the bag ?
In general, in academics, Fundies such as you, are given pretty much no respect.
Everything you're about has been pretty much debunked.
You're the laughing-stock of religion. In fact you chose your position of disrespect.
The crap you posted about slavery in the Bible was so bad and hilarious, that alone would make anyone cringe.

In fact, if you had any integrity and values, no one would be able to "dehumanize" you.
But you saw a chance to whine and play the victim, ... so you did.

As a matter of fact, Fundies dehumanize themselves.
In asserting inerrancy and literalism concerning ancient human texts, they give up the human advancements and understandings that humans have paid for, at so dear a price.

[Peebothuhlu]

Soooo... what's the 'Material' differeance between yourself and some one who jumps/falls off a bridge, as an example say?

Mental health I would suppose. That's an odd choice for a discussion on moral behavior. I've never considered someone who jumps off a bridge to be immoral for doing so.

Well we were innitially talking about 'If some person A does 'X" then it's okay/good/what ever for person B to do so as well."

Not quite the same thing as 'Morals'.

However if you want to plug 'Morals' into the sentence that'd be fine as well.

So... how does your view of the world of morals and diety's square the circle of the Euthyphro thing, then?

Not at work.

[Percie]

Well we were innitially talking about 'If some person A does 'X" then it's okay/good/what ever for person B to do so as well."

Not quite the same thing as 'Morals'.

However if you want to plug 'Morals' into the sentence that'd be fine as well.

I plugged nothing in. That part of the conversation was about divine command theory, which is all about morality and ethics.

[Bucky Ball]

Well we were innitially talking about 'If some person A does 'X" then it's okay/good/what ever for person B to do so as well."

Not quite the same thing as 'Morals'.

However if you want to plug 'Morals' into the sentence that'd be fine as well.

I plugged nothing in. That part of the conversation was about divine command theory, which is all about morality and ethics.

Actually according to you, it is basically about nothing, at all. if your deity does it, or wills it, it is moral.
There is nothing "about morality and ethics" in that ignorant paradigm.
That's about as stupid and dumb as it gets.

[Dancefortwo]

Well we were innitially talking about 'If some person A does 'X" then it's okay/good/what ever for person B to do so as well."

Not quite the same thing as 'Morals'.

However if you want to plug 'Morals' into the sentence that'd be fine as well.

I plugged nothing in. That part of the conversation was about divine command theory, which is all about morality and ethics.

Are you trying to say that morality is objective and is deity based?  That is to say that without humans existing a universal morality exists?  Because this is nonsense.  Morality has changed over the centuries.  What was moral 100 years ago or 2000 years ago is considered immoral today because societies and governments evolved and the morals with them.  Travel around the world and you'll find that morals  differ from community to community.  About the only universal moral agreement among humans is that murder is bad but even with with that most modern laws in secular governments decided to rank murder by degrees... as in 1st degree murder and 2nd degree murder and so on down the line.  Then there are circumstances in which murder is condoned by a society.  War being one of them.  

The bible is full of actions we'd find morally unacceptable today.  The age of consent for a young Jewish girl 2000 years ago was around 12.  In reality the virgin Mary would have been about 14.   Today in most countries Joseph (or god if you believe the magic story) would be brought up on charges of statutory rape ... not elivated to sainthood.  

 Well, the bible is a book of it's time.  It was written in a powerful paternal centered world and reflects a society dominated by male rules and dynamics therefore it has a strong male dominated god.   No suprise there.  

If a universal objective morality is your view you're going to have a long row to hoe.

[Bucky Ball]

  The scientific method shows that a number of health factors are better for those who attend religious services regularly.

Good for you.
So what exactly are you suggesting here ?
Are you saying non-believers should attend and see if their health improves ?
Are you saying your god is so dumb, it wouldn't know they don't believe ?
Are you saying people should lie to themselves and pretend they believe when they don't ?
What was your point there, Percival ?

[TheGentlemanBastard]

Says the person who would do anything to anyone if he thought some superbeing ordered him to. I am not impressed at all. I didnt dehumanize you, you did that all by yourself, by morally removing yourself from human society and sucking up to the orders of a being whose existence you can not demonstrate.

Yes, you dehumanized me, and now you're doubling down on it. That's sick. That's the first step toward concentration camps.

The difference between us is: I would never kill a human being. You would, if told to do so, by your own admission.

My religion tells me to love my enemies, and turn the other cheek if struck.

(my bold)

Your gawd tells it's followers to kill others on a regular basis though. So, if you're gawd told you, and you had no doubt the words were coming directly from it, to kill someone, would you?

[TheGentlemanBastard]

That part of the conversation was about divine command theory, which is all about morality and ethics.

Bull! Shit!

Divine command theory is about doing what you're told, no matter what's right. Morality and ethics is about doing what's right no matter what you're told.

[Peebothuhlu]

Well we were innitially talking about 'If some person A does 'X" then it's okay/good/what ever for person B to do so as well."

Not quite the same thing as 'Morals'.

However if you want to plug 'Morals' into the sentence that'd be fine as well.

I plugged nothing in. That part of the conversation was about divine command theory, which is all about morality and ethics.

If you want to plug 'Morals' into the sentence that'd be fine as well.

So... how does your view of the world of morals and diety's square the circle of the Euthyphro thing, then?

Not at work.

[vulcanlogician]

Sure. Go to the supermarket and look in the meat and insecticide sections. No one claims murder when I eat a steak, or genocide when I spray a colony of ants. Might makes right works when you have superior and inferior beings.

Among humans, it doesn't work.

You say this like it is wholly uncontroversial. Plenty of people have a problem with meat being "murder." They ask if it is right that we sell meat at supermarkets. Obviously, "might" has dictated that meat shall be sold at supermarkets. But certain individuals wonder if it's right.

I'm not a vegan. But I still think the vegan asks a good question.

You say "Among humans, it doesn't work."... meaning the power differential "rule"... that one who has superior power over another can make meat out of the other... doesn't work from human to human. Why not?

[Deesse23]

Says the person who would do anything to anyone if he thought some superbeing ordered him to. I am not impressed at all. I didnt dehumanize you, you did that all by yourself, by morally removing yourself from human society and sucking up to the orders of a being whose existence you can not demonstrate.

Yes, you dehumanized me, and now you're doubling down on it. That's sick. That's the first step toward concentration camps.

Bullshit

Nobody intends to put you in a concetration camp for lacking a moral compass. Stop playing victim because you feel you got treated with a lack of respect. But let me ask you this:

Would you put atheists in KZs if ordered to do so? Yes you would, if you thought your god ordered you to do so.

The difference between us is: I would never kill a human being. You would, if told to do so, by your own admission.

My religion tells me to love my enemies, and turn the other cheek if struck.

I was talking about what you are willing to do, not what you think your religion actually requires you to. Nice evasion, and the usual one we get from people who suck up to the celestial mafia don.

No, you would kill someone if you thought your god ordered you to do so, because you stated that might makes right.

Would you go and put someone into a KZ who collects sticks on a saturday, if being told to do so?
Would you go and put someone into a KZ who failed to marry the young woman he just raped, if being told to do so?
Would you go and put someone into a KZ who beat his slave to death (and the slave died on the same day), if being told to do so?

[Percie]

You say this like it is wholly uncontroversial. Plenty of people have a problem with meat being "murder." They ask if it is right that we sell meat at supermarkets. Obviously, "might" has dictated that meat shall be sold at supermarkets. But certain individuals wonder if it's right.

I'm not a vegan. But I still think the vegan asks a good question.

You say "Among humans, it doesn't work."... meaning the power differential "rule"... that one who has superior power over another can make meat out of the other... doesn't work from human to human. Why not?

Yes, a small minority don't eat meat. Some of those are for moral reasons, some for health reasons. Most of those will still swat a fly, as they see a difference between mammals and insects. And most of those will use hand sanitizer and such to kill bacteria. So, most people will kill other living beings at some level, we just vary at our level of comfort.

When I said superior and inferior beings, I wasn't referring to might, I was referring to superior/inferior in sapience and sentience. I thought that was clear in context.

[Percie]

Bullshit

Nobody intends to put you in a concetration camp for lacking a moral compass.

I have a moral compass. You acknowledge that. You just don't like my moral compass.

Stop playing victim because you feel you got treated with a lack of respect.

No. It's a legitimate point. "... creature" was dehumanizing language.

But let me ask you this:

Would you put atheists in KZs if ordered to do so? Yes you would, if you thought your god ordered you to do so.

Love your enemies. My god won't order me to to so.

I was talking about what you are willing to do, not what you think your religion actually requires you to. Nice evasion, and the usual one we get from people who suck up to the celestial mafia don.

You act as if I put a board of world religions on the wall and chose Christianity by throwing a dart. Did it ever cross your mind that I chose Christianity in large part because I agreed with the golden rule and love your enemies parts?

No, you would kill someone if you thought your god ordered you to do so, because you stated that might makes right.

No, I already know that my god won't order me to do so. 

What's the difference between people who commit wrongs due to religion as opposed to nationalism or some other belief system? From your POV they're all manmade creations. Why do you single out religion?

[TheGentlemanBastard]

You act as if I put a board of world religions on the wall and chose Christianity by throwing a dart. Did it ever cross your mind that I chose Christianity in large part because I agreed with the golden rule and love your enemies parts?

Bullshit. You're a christer because you were born into a country where that particular cult is predominant. Had you been born in Israel, you'd be a Jew. Muslim had you been born in Saudi, Hindu in India, etc...

No, I already know that my god won't order me to do so.

Your gawd bathes in the blood of those it's ordered killed. Most of us have read your collection of iron age fairy tales, so quit trying to bullshit us with these "my gawd wouldn't hurt a fly" statements, especially when you're the one arguing "might makes right."

You have no moral compass Perc, and the one you're trying to use in it's place, your gawd's, is badly broken

[Deesse23]

Bullshit

Nobody intends to put you in a concetration camp for lacking a moral compass.

I have a moral compass. You acknowledge that. You just don't like my moral compass.

Nope you evidently dont have a moral compass. You are amoral
You claim to know someone who has one: Your (imaginary) god

Stop playing victim because you feel you got treated with a lack of respect.

No. It's a legitimate point. "... creature" was dehumanizing language.

Stop.playing.victim

But let me ask you this:

Would you put atheists in KZs if ordered to do so? Yes you would, if you thought your god ordered you to do so.

Love your enemies. My god won't order me to to so.

Where was i asking about what your god wants?
Again, i asked what you would do, again you evaded by answering what you think your god would order you to do.
Why is it you cant answer this simple question?

Lets try again: Would you put ahteists into KZs?
Yes?
No?
Its that simple

I was talking about what you are willing to do, not what you think your religion actually requires you to. Nice evasion, and the usual one we get from people who suck up to the celestial mafia don.

You act as if I put a board of world religions on the wall and chose Christianity by throwing a dart. Did it ever cross your mind that I chose Christianity in large part because I agreed with the golden rule and love your enemies parts?

Stop evading. I acted like someone who likes to figure out what you are willing to do, and you act like someone who likes to evade this question.

What are you willing to do (for your god)? What would you refuse to do (if you had a moral compass)?
Is there anything you would not do, if you thought your god ordered you?

No, you would kill someone if you thought your god ordered you to do so, because you stated that might makes right.

No, I already know that my god won't order me to do so. 

Evasion again. For at least the third time:
I NEVER ASKED WHAT YOUR GOD (ALLEGEDLY) WANTS FROM YOU.
I ASKED WHAT YOU ARE WILLING TO DO
Hope you could parse it this time

What's the difference between people who commit wrongs due to religion as opposed to nationalism or some other belief system? From your POV they're all manmade creations. Why do you single out religion?

What about answering my questions, engaging with me in conversation, before asking me back and changing the topic?
Lets first establish where you are coming from by answering my very simple and straight forward questions about you and the lack of morals you put on display here.

And here is the kicker:

Did it ever cross your mind that I chose Christianity in large part because I agreed with the golden rule and love your enemies parts?

Are you claiming now you do have a moral compass of your own? Or based on what did you "choose" christianity?!

Good to know you are a run of the mill cafeteria christian and not the amoral thug you pretend to be. But why are you selling yourself as some creature who has no moral compass? Why pretending to suck up to celestial Don Corleone? Have you no backbone, no principles, no self respect? Why do you pretend to have given up your humanity on the altar of this cruel religion (slaves, genocide, misogyny, etc), putting your cherry picking aside for a moment?

After having read this i am not so sure, what your answer to my simple questions would be. But, alas, any answer given could be a lie, since you already demonstrated your dishonesty by claiming to adhere to divine command theory and cherry picking the "fluffy, soft" version of christianiy at the same time.

Cowardice and dishonesty. To yourself and to others. Thats how you have dehumanized yourself. You never needed me for any of that.

[Deesse23]

You have no moral compass Perc, and the one you're trying to use in it's place, your gawd's, is badly broken

If i would let him get to that point, which he so much desires to do, by skipping my question about himself (and i wonder-not why), then he would have to demonstrate a couple of things before we even could get near accepting his position*:

#1 His god exists
#2 His god is not amoral (like he himself is)
#3 His god is morally "good" (and i am really all ears how he wants to demonstrate that without circular reasoning)
#4 What Percie follows is, in fact, in alignment with #3

"I chose Christianity because i like some of its slogans" doenst really cut the cheese, does it?


*because #5 is the problem of contradictory statements within the bible, which he has to reconcile to be able to at least give the appearance of being consistent.

[Percie]

Nope you evidently dont have a moral compass. You are amoral
You claim to know someone who has one: Your (imaginary) god

From your perspective, what's the difference between having a moral compass, and using religion as a basis of morality?

Is an atheist who has read philosophers which has influenced his morals also without a moral compass? If not, why not?

Do you think the Bible directly covers every moral issue which comes up in life?

Stop.playing.victim.

No. It's a legitimate point. "... creature" was dehumanizing language.

Where was i asking about what your god wants?

You argued that I would necessarily do what I think my god wants. One example: "Says the person who would do anything to anyone if he thought some superbeing ordered him to." So, when  ask what i would do, it's reasonable for me to answer by saying what I think god says on the matter.

Again, i asked what you would do, again you evaded by answering what you think your god would order you to do.
Why is it you cant answer this simple question?

See above. Why is it you can't maintain a consistent position?

Lets try again: Would you put ahteists into KZs?
Yes?
No?
Its that simple

I don't know what a KZ is, but I take it it's something bad. The answer, as already given, is no, as the Bible says to love your neighbor and even to love your enemy.

I was talking about what you are willing to do, not what you think your religion actually requires you to. Nice evasion, and the usual one we get from people who suck up to the celestial mafia don.

See above. 

Stop evading. I acted like someone who likes to figure out what you are willing to do, and you act like someone who likes to evade this question.

Again, see above. You charged rthart I would necessarily do what I think god wants me to do, so it was reasonable for me to point out what the Bible says on the issue. I'm not evading. You just can't seem to maintain your own position consistently.

What are you willing to do (for your god)? What would you refuse to do (if you had a moral compass)?
Is there anything you would not do, if you thought your god ordered you?

I wouldn't do anything that contradicts the NT, as I wouldn't take that as actually coming from god.

I NEVER ASKED WHAT YOUR GOD (ALLEGEDLY) WANTS FROM YOU.
I ASKED WHAT YOU ARE WILLING TO DO

Hope you could parse it this time[/quote]

Don't be an ass if you want to have a discussion with me. Last warning.

What about answering my questions, engaging with me in conversation, before asking me back and changing the topic?

LOL - who's evading?

Did it ever cross your mind that I chose Christianity in large part because I agreed with the golden rule and love your enemies parts?

Are you claiming now you do have a moral compass of your own?[/quote]

I never said that I didn't. You jumped to that conclusion.

Or based on what did you "choose" christianity?!

Forgiveness and love were two of the factors.

Good to know you are a run of the mill cafeteria christian and not the amoral thug you pretend to be. But why are you selling yourself as some creature who has no moral compass? Why pretending to suck up to celestial Don Corleone? Have you no backbone, no principles, no self respect? Why do you pretend to have given up your humanity on the altar of this cruel religion (slaves, genocide, misogyny, etc), putting your cherry picking aside for a moment?

No man is an island. If you think your morality is all your own, you're mistaken.

After having read this i am not so sure, what your answer to my simple questions would be. But, alas, any answer given could be a lie, since you already demonstrated your dishonesty by claiming to adhere to divine command theory and cherry picking the "fluffy, soft" version of christianiy at the same time.

I can tell the difference between Israel and Gentiles. If you can't, that's your problem.

Cowardice and dishonesty. To yourself and to others. Thats how you have dehumanized yourself. You never needed me for any of that.

Even if those points were true, how is that dehumanizing? Cowardice and dishonesty are common parts of the human condition. You should really think these things through before you say them.

Speaking of cowardice, who's on a hostile board, and who's hiding where they know that almost everyone supports them?

[Percie]

"I chose Christianity because i like some of its slogans" doenst really cut the cheese, does it?

LMAO. It's cut the muster.

[Dancefortwo]

No, I already know that my god won't order me to do so.

LOLOL!  Oh really?   Your god tells Moses to kill the Midianites.  He also orders a couple of she bears to wipe out bunch of children because they were teasing a bald man.   Mr. Yahweh orders many of his minions to kill in his name and for his favorite tribe. How do you know your deity isn't going to send you out to .....oh I donno.... kill a bunch of atheists or carry out some other atrocity?    You know exactly what your god is thinking?   

Let me guess, your middle name is "Cognative Dissonance".

[SYZ]

I'm guessing we've shot Percie's bullshit down so many times he
has most of us on ignore.