Jesus' Mission....

[LastPoet]

That original post has an exact copy on AF. I wonder how many other sites this idiot has posted. I said it there and now here: it must be the aproaching xmas. The idiots come on heat near it and the nail-a-jew-to-a-cross day.

[GenesisNemesis]

If the best an omnipotent being can do is stage a dramatic sacrifice, then color me unimpressed.

It all has to do w/ Free Will. 

If a robot is what you would consider a viable companion for ETERNITY? Color me very impressed!

Question time!

How does it make a difference to an omniscient god whether we have free will or not? Either way he still knows every action we're going to make and we're still automatons. Free will makes no difference whatsoever. Secondly, since god is supposedly omnipotent, I'm sure he could handle an eternity with just "robots", lol. Oh also he could just skip the entire process of making humans altogether and make himself content with spending eternity alone, because, y'know, omnipotence. No reason whatsoever for all of the convoluted bullshit in the Bible.

Not to mention that in Genesis he FLOODED THE ENTIRE EARTH AND KILLED ALMOST ALL HUMANS because he was mad at them for exercising their "free will". There are in fact numerous examples in the Bible of Yahweh getting mad and punishing humans for disobeying him. You call that a "viable relationship"? And, by the way, he already knew they would disobey him beforehand. Your entire worldview is absurd.

[Astreja]

How does a man live [free of sin]?

By not believing in such a silly concept.

And Jesus dies at OUR sentencing and hands, sinless.

So you're okay with someone taking the fall for you?  Sucks to be you, coward.

And in heeding His teachings, we avoid the “Second Death” (death of the soul).

It's rather hard to "kill" something that doesn't exist.

Oh, and fuck the Holy Spirit, too.  Now shoo.  

[Minimalist]

Don't confuse Ronny with questions.  He has his bullshit memorized and can't handle any deviations.

Typical of the douchebags, really.

[Cheerful Charlie]

If the best an omnipotent being can do is stage a dramatic sacrifice, then color me unimpressed.

It all has to do w/ Free Will. 

If a robot is what you would consider a viable companion for ETERNITY? Color me very impressed!

Question time!

How does it make a difference to an omniscient god whether we have free will or not? Either way he still knows every action we're going to make and we're still automatons. Free will makes no difference whatsoever. Secondly, since god is supposedly omnipotent, I'm sure he could handle an eternity with just "robots", lol. Oh also he could just skip the entire process of making humans altogether and make himself content with spending eternity alone, because, y'know, omnipotence. No reason whatsoever for all of the convoluted bullshit in the Bible.

Not to mention that in Genesis he FLOODED THE ENTIRE EARTH AND KILLED ALMOST ALL HUMANS because he was mad at them for exercising their "free will". There are in fact numerous examples in the Bible of Yahweh getting mad and punishing humans for disobeying him. You call that a "viable relationship"? And, by the way, he already knew they would disobey him beforehand. Your entire worldview is absurd.

The situation with free will is that if we do not have free will, heaven and hell make no sense.  If God determines all that happens, including our acts, all is determined, by God including our evil acts.  But God's creation of all and his omniscience makes free will impossible.  What many theologians like to argue is compatibilism.  We have free will but God sees what we will freely chose to do.  But if God has omniscience and creates a world, his omniscience makes free will impossible.  If God creates a world where John is evil and damned, John has no free will and his actions are caused solely by God's choice of which possible creation to actualize.  This makes God evil if evil moral actions are committed in any world God creates that has evil moral actions.

Some theologians are a bit more honest about this.  Martin Luther for example.  Their out is to abandon logic all together.  God is incomprehensible and inscrutable.  Which is really not very satisfying, but it is the best that can be done.

[GenesisNemesis]

Some theologians are a bit more honest about this.  Martin Luther for example.  Their out is to abandon logic all together.  God is incomprehensible and inscrutable.  Which is really not very satisfying, but it is the best that can be done.

Which makes one wonder, if we abandon logic altogether, why is the god concept necessary to explain anything at all?

[SYZ]

...for the causal layman, those lacking understanding, or even interest

I note that you've chosen not to introduce yourself—for some unknown reason?
And without a bit of background it's a bit hard to respond to your comments in
any sort of relevant way.

At any rate, I'll give you the benefit of doubt for the moment, and welcome you
to the forum mate.    

Initially, I'm guessing you're a practising, evangelical Christian of some sort, and
you also appear to be visiting us purely as an attempt at proselytising—and/or
trying to "save" us atheists from a fate worse than death.  This attitude, particularly
within an atheist forum, is of course bound to be confrontational.

And before you get too embedded here, you need to know that I for one have
been a lifelong atheist, and never suffered from any religious indoctrination.  
As a result of this, I can easily dismiss the purported inerrancy of the
Abrahamic bible, and also reject the absurdities of Christian dogma out of hand.  
(And yes; I have read the bible, many decades ago, so I admit to being
a bit rusty on the finer points.)

And to the best of my knowledge, I've never committed any heinous sin, either
unwittingly or deliberately—and without any book of "instruction".  I have
an innate sense of decency, morals, and ethics.  Were I to lack any of those
attributes, a handful of words written on the pages an antique book would be
neither here nor there as far as ameliorating any/all of them.

I've also lived a long and fruitful life as an atheist (65+), unfettered with the
social biasses of the religious, their hypocrisy, their sectarianism, their sanctimony,
or their bigotry—and their obstinacy in refusing absolutely to consider any
non-religious viewpoints that conflict with their own dogmatic one.  Christians
are always "right" and we "sinners" are always wrong.

Based on all that, can you suggest why I should potentially waste my time
debating anything of a religious nature with you?  You obviously have an
extremely preconceived and rigid opinion on anything of a religious nature—
so would you be happy to discuss other topics not specifically bound to religion,
such as politics, economics, science, the arts, history, sports, the media etc?

[Chimp3]

....for the causal layman, those lacking understanding, or even interest:

The curse of death for sin: Gen 2:17 "…but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” KJV


The only way to eradicate the curse: is for a man to live free from sin, and suffer death. Because; death was only meant for sinners!

How does a man live [free of sin]? Man cannot. He can only repeat it. God, in the person of Jesus can, and does live sin free. And in the process; Teaches us “The Way, 
the Truth, and the Life.” He also atones for our sins, and reconciles Himself to man, for putting sin in front of us to begin with. Much like Him saying, "I am sharing 
in your humanity, and death so I might save all from eternal damnation." And Jesus dies at OUR sentencing and hands, sinless. The curse is then broken!

Death, then becomes a door instead of a destination! And in heeding His teachings, we avoid the “Second Death” (death of the soul). 

And all this..... without disrupting Free Will. AMAZING!

In even simpler terms? God is not asking us to do something He wouldn’t do Himself. And out of pure love for ALL of us! Amen

Imaginary god, imaginary sin, imaginary sacrifice, imaginary salvation.

[GenesisNemesis]

"For those lacking understanding..."

Ah yes, quite easy to understand how a being can be both a Father and a Son at the same time. How could we be so foolish in not understanding something that totally contradicts all logic? It's incredible people believe any of this. And then they lecture us on causality...

[Cheerful Charlie]

Some theologians are a bit more honest about this.  Martin Luther for example.  Their out is to abandon logic all together.  God is incomprehensible and inscrutable.  Which is really not very satisfying, but it is the best that can be done.

Which makes one wonder, if we abandon logic altogether, why is the god concept necessary to explain anything at all?

Some years back, when I discovered Martin Luther's "Bondage of the Will", I scanned some works of Jean Calvin and discovered much the same.  The final refuge is "God is incomprehensible.  I downloaded the works of Augustine, and searched them, and again, when Augustine runs into these logic problems, it is , "God is incomprehensible".  We find that in Paul, Romans 11;33
Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!  God's ways are mysterious.  God is inscrutable. 

Isaiah 55:8-9
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

So when theology's claims create impossible paradoxes, just wave your hands, roll your eyes and wiggle your ears and abandon all logic with these dodges.  "God is inscrutable and incomprehensible".  And here is the great problem of religion as far as I am concerned.  It teaches man to abandon logic and reason.  It is intellectual nihilism.  The problem is, once one abandons logic and reason, any horrors can follow.  Logic and reason do not matter, but rationalizations do, as long as it saves your otherwise foolish ideology, religion, culture, sub-culture, whatever.

And you cannot reason with a dangerous fool who has made abandonment of logic the central part of his or her way of thinking.
This is my greatest objection to much of what is called religion.  Who dislikes reason when it challenges his or her religion, ideology, culture or whatever.

[Paleophyte]

Gen 2:17 "…but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” KJV

And yet we all know that isn't what happened. Adam and Eve both lived to a ripe old age. The original sin was god lying to a pair of innocents.

[Kepler's Dream]

And all this..... without disrupting Free Will. AMAZING!

That's one word for it.

[Bucky Ball]

Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Death is not the result of sin. Not even in Genesis.
Death existed for millions if not billions of years before your little fairy story was stolen from the Babylonians and assembled into Genesis.
Don't be stupid.

[Bucky Ball]

"For those lacking understanding..."

Ah yes, quite easy to understand how a being can be both a Father and a Son at the same time. How could we be so foolish in not understanding something that totally contradicts all logic? It's incredible people believe any of this. And then they lecture us on causality...

That's the principle hook that religions hold over the ignorants who are not party to the "secret knowledge" that only the priestly class has access to. But of course access requires payment, (sacrifices). It's the oldest fraud scheme in the world.

[Bucky Ball]

The role of the Hebrew messiah was never (ever) to "save anyone from *sin*.
In the Hebrew Bible, sin is atoned for by many different kinds of sacrifices.
The Jews were never waiting for someone to save them from sin.
Belief that they were, is simply ignorance of their culture.

[jerry mcmasters]

Gawd awful boring 'round these anti-forums these days. Not like the "good oldays". 

Dude, your stuff has been boring for years already. You need a new schtick, but aren't creative enough to build it ... you're about as fresh as a rotten apple, but not nearly as nutritious.

A Mini wanna-be! Get some new lines. 

There are thousands of atheists out of work, and I get you? ZZZZzzzzzzzzzz ~ pffft

"Mini wanna-be"  Lol.  Er, I mean, bad theist, bad bad

[Bucky Ball]

That original post has an exact copy on AF. I wonder how many other sites this idiot has posted. I said it there and now here: it must be the aproaching xmas. The idiots come on heat near it and the nail-a-jew-to-a-cross day.

I imagine there could also be a correlation to assignments / final semester projects for those dumb enough to pay tuition to schools that teach Apologetics. Of course they *should* be apologizing* for the tripe they teach ... but they have to at least appear to be *doing* something for the tuition they fraudulently charge.

[Minimalist]

"Apologetics" takes many forms.  Ronny's is merely the silliest.

[LastPoet]

That original post has an exact copy on AF. I wonder how many other sites this idiot has posted. I said it there and now here: it must be the aproaching xmas. The idiots come on heat near it and the nail-a-jew-to-a-cross day.

I imagine there could also be a correlation to assignments / final semester projects for those dumb enough to pay tuition to schools that teach Apologetics. Of course they *should* be apologizing* for the tripe they teach ... but they have to at least appear to be *doing* something for the tuition they fraudulently charge.

Perhaps. Somekind of facing the antagonist indoctrination. All I know from my observations over the years in several atheist themed forums is that they become more active near xmas and easter. Further study on precise motives is needed to reach more tenable conclusions.

[ronedee]

...for the causal layman, those lacking understanding, or even interest

I note that you've chosen not to introduce yourself—for some unknown reason?
And without a bit of background it's a bit hard to respond to your comments in
any sort of relevant way.

At any rate, I'll give you the benefit of doubt for the moment, and welcome you
to the forum mate.    

Initially, I'm guessing you're a practising, evangelical Christian of some sort, and
you also appear to be visiting us purely as an attempt at proselytising—and/or
trying to "save" us atheists from a fate worse than death.  This attitude, particularly
within an atheist forum, is of course bound to be confrontational.

And before you get too embedded here, you need to know that I for one have
been a lifelong atheist, and never suffered from any religious indoctrination.  
As a result of this, I can easily dismiss the purported inerrancy of the
Abrahamic bible, and also reject the absurdities of Christian dogma out of hand.  
(And yes; I have read the bible, many decades ago, so I admit to being
a bit rusty on the finer points.)

And to the best of my knowledge, I've never committed any heinous sin, either
unwittingly or deliberately—and without any book of "instruction".  I have
an innate sense of decency, morals, and ethics.  Were I to lack any of those
attributes, a handful of words written on the pages an antique book would be
neither here nor there as far as ameliorating any/all of them.

I've also lived a long and fruitful life as an atheist (65+), unfettered with the
social biasses of the religious, their hypocrisy, their sectarianism, their sanctimony,
or their bigotry—and their obstinacy in refusing absolutely to consider any
non-religious viewpoints that conflict with their own dogmatic one.  Christians
are always "right" and we "sinners" are always wrong.

Based on all that, can you suggest why I should potentially waste my time
debating anything of a religious nature with you?  You obviously have an
extremely preconceived and rigid opinion on anything of a religious nature—
so would you be happy to discuss other topics not specifically bound to religion,
such as politics, economics, science, the arts, history, sports, the media etc?

Thank you for the civil reply, and for your welcome!

No, I've been around the atheist forums for over 10 years. And really did most of my tooth cutting
and dues paying early on. I don't bother debating the drive by anti's anymore. There is no point. 
I'm not here to butter my ego, or evangelize anyone. What I want is a good debate, and to challenge 
my own Faith! But, unfortunately many of "those" people on both sides have left for greener pastures.
And I don't blame them. I'm actually in touch w/ a few atheists from the old AT forum.

Yes, there can be common ground. And even, dare I say it, friendships formed here! All that said, I don't
want to waste anyone's time, and most of all my own! I'm not a forum frequenter for various reasons.
Number one is time. I am a busy man, and can't give a good response to a serious opponent and concentrate
on my all consuming work, and family time! I'm sure that is the case here with many? Considering all the curt,
disparaging, and ugly remarks. You'd think I brought my Medieval witch cucking stool with me! Another reason
to avoid these places, I guess.

To my post... I felt inspired to bring the message here and other places. Besides the obvious personal hits, the
combined thread hits are close to 10,000! So, for the relatively few insults? It's been a few good days! I've also
gotten some fine, and wonderful feedback. And from a post I felt inspired to write, and give others a better
understanding of the mystery. Is it the final say on anything? NO. I don't claim to know God's mind. As the
scripture goes; "Your thoughts are not mine says the Lord...." I'm not foolish enough to think I have all the 
answers. And I think both sides could admit to that? If not, we can stop here.

I also know all the usual complaints about the bible and God. So, you don't need to reiterate, ad nauseam.
My ideal exchange is of; ideas and problem solving. Humor is also a good thing, if "we" are not the constant 
brunt of it. No ass kissing needed or given. I like my feet held to the fire, and I will return the favor. The Truth
is what I want, and seek.   

For background? I've been in law enforcement for over 25 years. I have a huge family, thanks to my Irish, Catholic 
wife. And I'm also a musician/songwriter. I have many interests including; performance automotive and motorcycle 
building and racing, hunting and competition shooting, and community service. I'm a devout Catholic and KC. I
won't say I'm an evangelist. But, I would like to be when I feel I've been able to harness and tame my own demons.
Hypocrisy is last on the list of desirable attributes. And our church has enough going on already! 

Thanks again for your decent reply! And lets have a "go" if you feel the need? I would reply late evenings and midday.
Those are usually my escape hatches! Cheers, R

[Astreja]

Ronadee, what makes you think you're conveying a message? I suspect that the majority of us live in places where everyone has heard the tenets of Christianity multiple times. I read the Bible well over 50 years ago.

At some point you're just going to have to accept that we know all the details of the "message" as well or better than you do, but do not believe it. Repeating the same old unbelievable myth over and over again isn't going to change that.

[Cheerful Charlie]

What debate do you want? In my post #55 (and #60) I demonstrated why the doctrine God is good, creates all and is omniscient, free will is not possible. A position numerous theologians from Augustine, Martin Luther, Jean Calvin and others have admitted must be true if we take the Bible as authoritative and a direct revelation from God or inspired by God.

We then have to abandon some parts of these claims that we derive from the Bible.

1. That God is good, compassionate, merciful, fair and just.
2. That God cares about us at all.
3. That God creates all.
4. That God is truly omnipotent.
5. That God is omniscient, knowing the future in all details.

All of these claims have problems if we abandon them, in an attempt to save free will. The God of the Bible and the Grand Theology of Christianity does not make logical sense. If we follow all of these basic claims to their logical conclusion, it undermines a lot of theology, for example, Alvin Plantinga's Free Will Defense, or Molinism, the idea of God's middle knowledge.

I have yet to run into any theist who "wants a civil debate" who is willing to debate these issues. This is not the only logical issue I have with the Judeo-Christian variety God.

[Minimalist]

Poor Ronny.

[Dānu]

....for the causal layman, those lacking understanding, or even interest:

The curse of death for sin: Gen 2:17 "…but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” KJV


The only way to eradicate the curse: is for a man to live free from sin, and suffer death. Because; death was only meant for sinners!

How does a man live [free of sin]? Man cannot. He can only repeat it. God, in the person of Jesus can, and does live sin free. And in the process; Teaches us “The Way, 
the Truth, and the Life.” He also atones for our sins, and reconciles Himself to man, for putting sin in front of us to begin with. Much like Him saying, "I am sharing 
in your humanity, and death so I might save all from eternal damnation." And Jesus dies at OUR sentencing and hands, sinless. The curse is then broken!

Death, then becomes a door instead of a destination! And in heeding His teachings, we avoid the “Second Death” (death of the soul). 

And all this..... without disrupting Free Will. AMAZING!

In even simpler terms? God is not asking us to do something He wouldn’t do Himself. And out of pure love for ALL of us! Amen

Imaginary god, imaginary sin, imaginary sacrifice, imaginary salvation.

Ronedee would be doing himself a favor if he just masturbated to his fantasies, but like a good Catholic he insists on buggering the innocent.

[adey67]

[/quote]

For background? I've been in law enforcement for over 25 years. I have a huge family, thanks to my Irish, Catholic 
wife. And I'm also a musician/songwriter. I have many interests including; performance automotive and motorcycle 
building and racing, hunting and competition shooting, and community service. I'm a devout Catholic and KC. I
won't say I'm an evangelist. But, I would like to be when I feel I've been able to harness and tame my own demons.
Hypocrisy is last on the list of desirable attributes. And our church has enough going on already! 

Thanks again for your decent reply! And lets have a "go" if you feel the need? I would reply late evenings and midday.
Those are usually my escape hatches! Cheers, R
[/quote]
***************************************
Had you started your tenure here with the above quoted text in the introduction section I'll wager your reception would have been very different to what it was. We have a number of religious people here including  another catholic and they are well accepted and liked, what they didn't do was barge in with the grace of an epileptic cart horse, posting a wall of evangelistic entreaties and scripture. You must know we've all heard it a million times before and it's no more convincing for another telling. What on earth induced you to think that your first post was even a remotely productive way to start off?

 The only person responsible for your poor reception is yourself but that being said I had a shaky start on TTA five years ago and people gave me a second chance so if you're not here just to be a evangelical douche then I too bid you a tentative welcome.