Are Civil War reinactments racist? Southern Belle heritage?

[TheGentlemanBastard]

I've never understood the purpose of any war/battle reenactments. To me it seems to be the glorification of thousands of people being killed, many in the most excruciating ways possible.

I have to disagree.  Reenactments, whether US civil wars, Gallipolli, or Botany Bay are nothing more than
historical reminders of the good, the indifferent, or the evil of the time period.  They don't "glorify" wars or
the war dead, any more that the annual Australian ANZAC parades would been seen to be glorifying war.

I'm also unsure these days as to why so many Americans have a need to conveniently label everything they
disagree with as "racist"?

They seem to think they can erase the US's lesser agreeable historical moments by forgetting about them.
These reenactments may be a stark real-time reminder of the social mores of times past—which for some
are apparently an uncomfortable memory.

What next?  Destroy all the old movies and books that portray people in an (allegedly) racist light?  
"Gone With The Wind" or "The Jazz Singer".  What about "Birth Of A Nation" or "Song of the South".

—By confirming the you've "never understood" period reenactments, you've more or less answered your own implicit question.

(my bolding)

You're reading way more into what I said than I put there. I said nothing about racism, historical monument, attempting to erase history, or destroying films. You want to tilt at straw men, that's fine. Don't expect me to engage it.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I've never understood the purpose of any war/battle reenactments. To me it seems to be the glorification of thousands of people being killed, many in the most excruciating ways possible.

If you've never heard a bullet go "tweeeee" past your head and realized that it did, indeed, go past, then you probably can't understand it.

I've heard bullets snapping the air past my head. Got no desire to see it replayed, even with blanks.

That said, I don't think the re-enactments are necessarily racist, though I would imagine they draw fanbois of all sorts, including those who drink the cup to its dregs.

[Thumpalumpacus]

That said, I find @Dancefortwo's link both chilling, and less surprising than it should be.  The mouth-noises about Southern culture are cloaked in terms like 'states rights', but never for a second forget that the Civil War was about preserving slavery and white supremacy in the South:

[quote snipped]

Indeed. For all the revisionist blathering about "states' rights", those proponents ignore one key fact: The Confederate Constitution specifically forbade any of its states the right to ban slavery. Slavery had Constitutional protection in the CSA.

That tells me all I need to know about "the Lost Cause".

[Gawdzilla Sama]

What's the deal with reliving that abhorrent behavior in modern times, though? Isn't it enough that it happened once? Why keep acting it out it over and over?
@Szuchow is right, the study and knowledge of humans visiting atrocities on other humans belongs in museums and history books but acting it out in real life in 2020 is weird.

-Teresa

Teresa, do you think the reenactors are keeping slaves?

Why, yes, of course I do. 

-Teresa

Okay, then I'm not confused as to your stance here.

[Minimalist]

You'd rather we fought with the Nazis?

We've had other wars, you know.

What about our heroic invasion of Greneda?  Or Panama?

[Bcat]

I've never understood the purpose of any war/battle reenactments. To me it seems to be the glorification of thousands of people being killed, many in the most excruciating ways possible.

I have to disagree.  Reenactments, whether US civil wars, Gallipolli, or Botany Bay are nothing more than
historical reminders of the good, the indifferent, or the evil of the time period.  They don't "glorify" wars or
the war dead, any more that the annual Australian ANZAC parades would been seen to be glorifying war.

I'm also unsure these days as to why so many Americans have a need to conveniently label everything they
disagree with as "racist"?

They seem to think they can erase the US's lesser agreeable historical moments by forgetting about them.
These reenactments may be a stark real-time reminder of the social mores of times past—which for some
are apparently an uncomfortable memory.

What next?  Destroy all the old movies and books that portray people in an (allegedly) racist light?  
"Gone With The Wind" or "The Jazz Singer".  What about "Birth Of A Nation" or "Song of the South".

—By confirming the you've "never understood" period reenactments, you've more or less answered your own implicit question.

I don't think disagreeing to reinactments when a culture is heated is the same as saying destroy all literature.  I think history and literature are important.  I think remembering tragedies of injustice and inhumanity are crucial so they don't happen again.  However, there is a difference between reading a book in a classroom and having an open discussion on the tragedies that occurred and flouncing around proudly in historical dress and acting like the immense tragedies that befell others were no big deal.  It's horrendously disrespectful and in no way helpful to remedying the ills of society.  

I took a Sociology of Genocide course in college.  My college professor had family members who were killed during the Holocaust.  He had tears streaming down his face as he told us stories of the horrors his family went through.  We had discussions, we read books, we watched movies, we had speakers, we had open dialogue.  Classes such as this in schools is the way to remember.  Educating others is the way to remember.  Going to historical museums that showcase the injustices faced by others is the way to remember.  Flouncing around in a huge dress because it makes a certain demographic feel "special" not so much.

[SYZ]

[quote="TheGentlemanBastard" pid='239070' dateline='1597864304']
I've never understood the purpose of any war/battle reenactments. To me it seems to be the glorification of thousands of people being killed, many in the most excruciating ways possible.

I have to disagree...
(my bolding)

You're reading way more into what I said than I put there. I said nothing about racism, historical monument, attempting to erase history, or destroying films. You want to tilt at straw men, that's fine. Don't expect me to engage it.

"Straw man" arguments?  What a shallow, piss-weak dismissal.  And I never mentioned "historical monuments" FFS.

At any rate, by implication you're actually favouring the cessation of reenactments precisely in order to erase history.
A history which obviously embarrasses you to the point of never wanting to acknowledge it any more.  What's more,
you've admitted that you don't understand the purpose of historical reenactments—how then can you disagree with
their intention, functioning or social motives?  You sound too much like a typical SWJ—desperate to be seen as politically
correct regardless of context.

[Bcat]

Frankly I think that doing reenactments of side that supported slavery speaks very poorly of person moral fiber. I can't see how pretending to be defender of slavery is educational. Whatever is worth learning about these times can be learnt from books or during museum visits - wearing the uniforms of side that wanted abhorrent practice to persists is just disgusting.

Like some other respondents here, I think you're missing a salient point.  At that time, 150 years ago,
what we now rightly classify as abhorrent behaviour was the societal norm. It's fruitless attempting to compare
21st century US mores and morals with those of the Civil War days.

And with due respect, I think living in Poland, you've not had any real-life experiences of black-inspired racism,
as has (and does) the USA, and to a lesser degree Australia and the UK.

According to the CIA World Fact Book, 96.7% of Poland's population is composed of ethnic Poles. Germans, the
second-largest ethnic group, make up a mere 0.4% of the population. Belarusians and Ukrainians—the next most
populous groups—each account for only 0.1%.

Polish sculptor Mateusz Sikora was showing black American news correspondent, Elliott Hester, around Warsaw,
and told him that "Polish people don't see too many blacks".  When Mateusz took him on a tour the following
day, Elliot ran "into a little bit of racism." A group of giggling adolescent schoolgirls confronted him shyly in the
Old Town, and one by one had their photos taken with him, sitting on a bench.

It was a form of unintended racial prejudice served up not by fundamentalists or garden-variety bigots, but by
young Polish girls who had never seen a black man in person.

—As a matter of interest, have you ever seen a black person face-to-face?

Racism takes many forms.  Inhumanity takes many forms.  I believe Szuchow has a doctorate in Holocaust studies.  He certainly has an experienced viewpoint on a targeted and inhumanely treated demographic.

[TheGentlemanBastard]

At any rate, by implication you're actually favouring the cessation of reenactments precisely in order to erase history. A history which obviously embarrasses you to the point of never wanting to acknowledge it any more.

Maybe tomorrow you'll be sure to inform me of my thoughts and beliefs on the criminal justice system. Fuck you SYZ. You've made a bunch of assumptions and baseless assertions when a simple request for clarification could have kept you from looking like a complete fucking wanker.

Piss off.

[SYZ]

Maybe tomorrow you'll be sure to inform me of my thoughts and beliefs on the criminal justice system. Fuck you SYZ. You've made a bunch of assumptions and baseless assertions when a simple request for clarification could have kept you from looking like a complete fucking wanker.

Piss off.

It never cease to amuse me when some people are on the losing end of a debate, they're forced
to resort to puerile ad hominems. Is that really the best you can do mate? I expected better.

[TheGentlemanBastard]

Maybe tomorrow you'll be sure to inform me of my thoughts and beliefs on the criminal justice system. Fuck you SYZ. You've made a bunch of assumptions and baseless assertions when a simple request for clarification could have kept you from looking like a complete fucking wanker.

Piss off.

It never cease to amuse me when some people are on the losing end of a debate, they're forced
to resort to puerile ad hominems.  Is that really the best you can do mate?  I expected better.

It never fails to amuse me that people who make mistaken assumptions and baseless accusations need to declare victory when those whose statements are misrepresented call them out on it.

[Szuchow]

Frankly I think that doing reenactments of side that supported slavery speaks very poorly of person moral fiber. I can't see how pretending to be defender of slavery is educational. Whatever is worth learning about these times can be learnt from books or during museum visits - wearing the uniforms of side that wanted abhorrent practice to persists is just disgusting.

Like some other respondents here, I think you're missing a salient point.  At that time, 150 years ago,
what we now rightly classify as abhorrent behaviour was the societal norm. It's fruitless attempting to compare
21st century US mores and morals with those of the Civil War days.

And with due respect, I think living in Poland, you've not had any real-life experiences of black-inspired racism,
as has (and does) the USA, and to a lesser degree Australia and the UK.

According to the CIA World Fact Book, 96.7% of Poland's population is composed of ethnic Poles. Germans, the
second-largest ethnic group, make up a mere 0.4% of the population. Belarusians and Ukrainians—the next most
populous groups—each account for only 0.1%.

Polish sculptor Mateusz Sikora was showing black American news correspondent, Elliott Hester, around Warsaw,
and told him that "Polish people don't see too many blacks".  When Mateusz took him on a tour the following
day, Elliot ran "into a little bit of racism." A group of giggling adolescent schoolgirls confronted him shyly in the
Old Town, and one by one had their photos taken with him, sitting on a bench.

It was a form of unintended racial prejudice served up not by fundamentalists or garden-variety bigots, but by
young Polish girls who had never seen a black man in person.

—As a matter of interest, have you ever seen a black person face-to-face?

I don't give a shit that thing x might have been societal norm back then, it isn't now so I think that my point stands. Wanting to dress up as someone who fought for slavery does not say good things about person moral fiber.

Fact that I don't have direct experience with above mentioned type of racism is immaterial. I do not need one to know that racism is abhorrent.

Yes, I've seen one black person face-to-face. Guy asked for directions.

[Minimalist]

Some who are too sensitive should probably not go here.

http://www.lssah.com/

It is the web site for a re-enactor group called the Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler  (1st SS Panzer Division)

As they note on their web site:

undefined
World War Two, the most significant and far reaching military event of the 20th Century did have and continues to have a daily impact on lives and attitudes of our global community. Gradually, however, monuments to this event crumble, veterans pass away, and history books are re-written as we lose the sights and sounds of that historic conflict and those who took part in it. In 1975, an organization was founded by like-minded military historians, collectors, and hobbyists in an effort in an effort to research, preserve, and portray a historically correct impression of the German infantryman, specifically that of the 1st SS Panzer Division, The Leibstandarte (LAH).
 
This Division was chosen for several important reasons; it was one of the first units formed as Germany mobilized for war, it received the finest equipment available to the German soldier at the time, it came to symbolize the highest dedication to duty and individual as well as collective loyalty, and, most importantly to the re-enactor, it fought on nearly all fronts at various periods of that conflict, making participation and membership in this unit at most any reenactment event historically correct.

I'm sure they have been in quite a few movies.

[Szuchow]

Frankly I think that doing reenactments of side that supported slavery speaks very poorly of person moral fiber. I can't see how pretending to be defender of slavery is educational. Whatever is worth learning about these times can be learnt from books or during museum visits - wearing the uniforms of side that wanted abhorrent practice to persists is just disgusting.

Like some other respondents here, I think you're missing a salient point.  At that time, 150 years ago,
what we now rightly classify as abhorrent behaviour was the societal norm. It's fruitless attempting to compare
21st century US mores and morals with those of the Civil War days.

And with due respect, I think living in Poland, you've not had any real-life experiences of black-inspired racism,
as has (and does) the USA, and to a lesser degree Australia and the UK.

According to the CIA World Fact Book, 96.7% of Poland's population is composed of ethnic Poles. Germans, the
second-largest ethnic group, make up a mere 0.4% of the population. Belarusians and Ukrainians—the next most
populous groups—each account for only 0.1%.

Polish sculptor Mateusz Sikora was showing black American news correspondent, Elliott Hester, around Warsaw,
and told him that "Polish people don't see too many blacks".  When Mateusz took him on a tour the following
day, Elliot ran "into a little bit of racism." A group of giggling adolescent schoolgirls confronted him shyly in the
Old Town, and one by one had their photos taken with him, sitting on a bench.

It was a form of unintended racial prejudice served up not by fundamentalists or garden-variety bigots, but by
young Polish girls who had never seen a black man in person.

—As a matter of interest, have you ever seen a black person face-to-face?

Racism takes many forms.  Inhumanity takes many forms.  I believe Szuchow has a doctorate in Holocaust studies.  He certainly has an experienced viewpoint on a targeted and inhumanely treated demographic.

Thanks for thinking so highly of me but I merely have Master's degree in history, without specific field*. That said I started reading books about III Reich and Shoah specifically as far back as in high school so I'm not total layman. 


*My thesis was about influence of Russian revolution on Poland independence or rather about how it is shown in Polish historiography

[Bcat]

Like some other respondents here, I think you're missing a salient point.  At that time, 150 years ago,
what we now rightly classify as abhorrent behaviour was the societal norm. It's fruitless attempting to compare
21st century US mores and morals with those of the Civil War days.

And with due respect, I think living in Poland, you've not had any real-life experiences of black-inspired racism,
as has (and does) the USA, and to a lesser degree Australia and the UK.

According to the CIA World Fact Book, 96.7% of Poland's population is composed of ethnic Poles. Germans, the
second-largest ethnic group, make up a mere 0.4% of the population. Belarusians and Ukrainians—the next most
populous groups—each account for only 0.1%.

Polish sculptor Mateusz Sikora was showing black American news correspondent, Elliott Hester, around Warsaw,
and told him that "Polish people don't see too many blacks".  When Mateusz took him on a tour the following
day, Elliot ran "into a little bit of racism." A group of giggling adolescent schoolgirls confronted him shyly in the
Old Town, and one by one had their photos taken with him, sitting on a bench.

It was a form of unintended racial prejudice served up not by fundamentalists or garden-variety bigots, but by
young Polish girls who had never seen a black man in person.

—As a matter of interest, have you ever seen a black person face-to-face?

Racism takes many forms.  Inhumanity takes many forms.  I believe Szuchow has a doctorate in Holocaust studies.  He certainly has an experienced viewpoint on a targeted and inhumanely treated demographic.

Thanks for thinking so highly of me but I merely have Master's degree in history, without specific field*. That said I started reading books about III Reich and Shoah specifically as far back as in high school so I'm not total layman. 


*My thesis was about influence of Russian revolution on Poland independence or rather about how it is shown in Polish historiography

I knew it was something like that.  I thought it was specifically in Holocaust studies as you talk frequently about it and appear to be quite well-read on the subject.  But then again, you seem well-read on everything. 

[Ausländer]

  
I'm guessing the Europeans don't march around in uniforms pretending it's 1930s-40s again, depending on when their country was on the losing side. Rubbing salt in old wounds.

well, we in the old EU mainly either reenact roman legions, medieval stuff, renessaince stuff and some napoleonic wars. But it s just to attract tourist and do some money in between...
Anyway, the same can be said of roman empire: forged on slave, brutal, racist (if you were not roman citizen you were worth nothing), patriarchal society (the father had the right to kill his own kids until they were 18 years old etc), sex exploitation of kids and slaves etc. But nobody complain about it, maybe if you keep on reenacting in 1500-2000 years you will see it just as a normal reenactment?
I mean, these southerners racist are subnormal people and that is crystal clear, but can we just do a reenactment for the sake of having fun and understanding how shitty everyday life 150 years ago was? (crappy clothes, uncomfortable shoes, a bullet in your arm was a lottery ticket for gangrene and won you a nice amputation with no anestetic etc etc).

[M.Linoge]

I'm guessing the Europeans don't march around in uniforms pretending it's 1930s-40s again, depending on when their country was on the losing side. Rubbing salt in old wounds.

I mean, these southerners racist are subnormal people and that is crystal clear, but can we just do a reenactment for the sake of having fun and understanding how shitty everyday life 150 years ago was? (crappy clothes, uncomfortable shoes, a bullet in your arm was a lottery ticket for gangrene and won you a nice amputation with no anestetic etc etc).

If it really is for fun and understanding (real history), that's a different story. Maybe in 1500-2000 years it will be.

[Szuchow]

Racism takes many forms.  Inhumanity takes many forms.  I believe Szuchow has a doctorate in Holocaust studies.  He certainly has an experienced viewpoint on a targeted and inhumanely treated demographic.

Thanks for thinking so highly of me but I merely have Master's degree in history, without specific field*. That said I started reading books about III Reich and Shoah specifically as far back as in high school so I'm not total layman. 


*My thesis was about influence of Russian revolution on Poland independence or rather about how it is shown in Polish historiography

I knew it was something like that.  I thought it was specifically in Holocaust studies as you talk frequently about it and appear to be quite well-read on the subject.  But then again, you seem well-read on everything. 

If you will feed my ego some more I will not be able to lift my head 

[Dānu]

I've only skimmed this thread, so pardon if I repeat something that's already been said. Reenactment seems to be a case of people sharing their love of something. As such, it's going to reflect the character of those who share that love. That can be good or bad. You can love civil war lore without being racist, or being a racist might lead you to loving civil war lore. My gaming friends and I in high school and college played wargames set in World War II, and we shared an interest in, and a fascination with the technology, tactics, and history of the war, often tending toward a bias toward the German side, as the German technology such as the Tiger tank, the Messerschmidt's and so on was a lot of fun. That didn't make any of us Nazis. It's possible to separate the love of a thing from a love of every aspect of that thing. I love football. I don't reenact football games, but I share by buying paraphernalia that has the theme of my favorite team, play fantasy football, and so on. I don't love everything about football, though. What it does to the players and youth who play is frightening and I feel morally guilty for ignoring it. But I do love the sport, and baseball, and love sharing that love with others who do as well.

[Aliza]

I've only skimmed this thread, so pardon if I repeat something that's already been said.  Reenactment seems to be a case of people sharing their love of something.  As such, it's going to reflect the character of those who share that love.  That can be good or bad.  You can love civil war lore without being racist, or being a racist might lead you to loving civil war lore.  My gaming friends and I in high school and college played wargames set in World War II, and we shared an interest in, and a fascination with the technology, tactics, and history of the war, often tending toward a bias toward the German side, as the German technology such as the Tiger tank, the Messerschmidt's and so on was a lot of fun.  That didn't make any of us Nazis.  It's possible to separate the love of a thing from a love of every aspect of that thing.  I love football.  I don't reenact football games, but I share by buying paraphernalia that has the theme of my favorite team, play fantasy football, and so on.  I don't love everything about football, though.  What it does to the players and youth who play is frightening and I feel morally guilty for ignoring it.  But I do love the sport, and baseball, and love sharing that love with others who do as well.

That's really well said! It's kind of like how many atheists celebrate Christmas for the warm fuzzies that they get. (Not judging, atheists!)

[Dancefortwo]

I'm not so sure but the guy on the horse at 0:20 is supposed to be King Harold being knocked off his horse.  I guess they couldn't really put an arrow in his eye so they sort of poke at him with spears and stuff.    




According to the Bayeux Tapestry he pulled the arrow out!  OUCH!  That arrow in his eye changed history.





This is funny too.  A newspaper reenactment.

[Minimalist]

Some of these guys really get into it.

[Ausländer]

Some of these guys really get into it.

The archeological park in Xanten (Germany, Colonia Ulpia Traiana the latin name) is a great place for learning Roman dailylife and technology, I really suggest to everybody to visit it if interested in roman history. You will learn more about Rome there than visiting Rome in Italy

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The guy with the crutch ignored the obligatory "Don't Try This At Home."

[Minimalist]

I wonder who makes that Lorica Segmentata armor and how much it costs?