Are Civil War reinactments racist? Southern Belle heritage?

[Aliza]

I don't know.  I used to belong to the SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism), but I guarantee I never for a second wanted the actual medieval culture back today.

Did you make your own chain mail?

[Bcat]

If we deny the validity of southern people’s rights to celebrate their heritage, we do a huge disservice to all communities, because that will trickle down to everyone else. When Southerners try to justify slavery, they may only be trying to grant themselves permission to appreciate the goodness of their culture when so many people are trying to invalidate it.

I attended a fair that was a kind of celebration of the world’s countries. In it, people from those countries had set up tents where they made food and displayed artifacts from their culture. In every case, the people were proud of their culture, and of their country’s achievements. Not one country owned up to the shit their ancestors did.

The people of Sierra Leone didn’t discuss their ancestors’ part in the slave trade… they talked about their music, their clothing, their art. And that’s okay! That’s what they should be doing. We know what went on in the past, we all went to history class. There’s a time and a place to discuss the bad, embarrassing stuff and it would be tacky to try to devalue their heritage by bringing the subject of slavery up at a cultural fair. Doing so hinders the healing of old wounds.

I hear what you are saying, but having lived in the deepish South, I can say based on my experiences, racism is both blatant and underlying.  I think adding reinactments into the mix into this type of culture could feel diminishing to some and likewise, has the potential to create a further societal divide.  

It's more than just dress up.  The idea of belles standing on plantation porches sipping sweet tea while slaves worked endlessly in the fields to supply them with their elaborate lifestyle is a hurtful, belittling symbol and reminder of those who were taken against their will, forced into slavery, taken away from their families, beaten, raped, murdered, and treated inhumanely in every possible way.  I just think there are certain symbols that should stay in the past.  Why not focus on Southern cooking instead or other items of Southern culture that have positive remembrances for all?

[Dancefortwo]

BTW, those outfits look dreadfully uncomfortable!  The things women will do for "fashion."  

Actually they were pretty lightweight and Southern women used a lot of cotton and silk material.  They didn't really wear underwear , they went commando. The bloomers, if they wore any, had a big gap at the crotch.

[brewerb]

Anybody notice the two off/different things in the Southern Belle image? (there may be more than two)

[Minimalist]

I think some of the Civil war reenactors and Southern Belles are there for relatively innocuous reasons, but at its core all of the “graciousness” and aesthetics that some so love about that era coexisted with so much brutality and oppression that I can’t get beyond it.

The officer class aside, most Southern soldiers were dirt poor farm boys who did not own slaves.  As historian Shelby Foote noted once, they were lucky if they owned shoes.  Like most soldiers in most wars those who stuck it out tended to fight for each other not for any "cause."

[trdsf]

I don't know.  I used to belong to the SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism), but I guarantee I never for a second wanted the actual medieval culture back today.

Did you make your own chain mail?

I did not -- although I do know how to make mail, and have made mail dice bags for some gamer friends.  I was never going to be a stick-jock. 

Truth is, I never really did find my niche, although I had great fun in the SCA, met some great people, attended some great events.

[M.Linoge]

I don't think reenacting war is necessarily racist, but it's probably something racists do with normal people. 

Reenactments like this has always seemed to me to be an attempt to keep southerners hostile and bitter. The united states have won wars fighting on the side of liberty and justice, but these people reenact a war they lost fighting for the enslavement of human beings. 
Some people call it a war over states rights. So not only were they fighting for their rights, as righteous people , but they lost and decided relive the experience every year. But they're over it... 
I'm guessing the Europeans don't march around in uniforms pretending it's 1930s-40s again, depending on when their country was on the losing side. Rubbing salt in old wounds.

[Minimalist]

The united states have won wars fighting on the side of liberty and justice,

We do love to tell ourselves that.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

You'd rather we fought with the Nazis?

[Dancefortwo]

I don't know.  I used to belong to the SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism), but I guarantee I never for a second wanted the actual medieval culture back today.

That said, I find @Dancefortwo's link both chilling, and less surprising than it should be.  The mouth-noises about Southern culture are cloaked in terms like 'states rights', but never for a second forget that the Civil War was about preserving slavery and white supremacy in the South:

The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization.  This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution.  Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split."  He was right.  What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact.  But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted.  The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically.  It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. [...] Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong.  They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races.  This was an error.  It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it—when the "storm came and the wind blew, it fell."

(emphasis added)

Certainly, study the Civil War as a matter of history.  But study the real Civil War, not a white (literally and figuratively)-washed version.

We were invited to a SCA event as guests.   My husband was into making his own long bows and arrow heads and participated in archery tournaments around these parts so someone from  SCA archery invited us.  I went through my costume supplies which is fairly extensive and found something to wear and we trecked off to the SCA gathering.   It was ok but it's a strange world.   (I suppose a lot of people feel that way about theatre people too.     )   At the end of the day someone was crowned king or queen of something or other. There were lots of people dressed up as pirates which was fun.

[skyking]

I read an interesting article written by a black guy who joined a Civil War reenactment on the Union side.   

I donned a hotter-than-hell wool costume so I could look the part of a Union soldier and hopped around in military formations, shooting off caps in the direction of Confederate cosplayers. But every time there was a lull in the action, I heard people saying off-the-wall shit—that slavery wasn’t that bad for blacks, that enslaved blacks weren’t brutalised, that enslaved blacks loved the Confederacy so much they fought for it in the South’s “integrated” military… When I heard this last bit, I knew we had to get out of there. The producers had wanted us to spend the night at the reenactment camp, but there was no way I was sleeping in a place where people legitimately believed that a large number of enslaved blacks wilfully supported their own bondage. The idea was even more reprehensible than what I’d heard from Bundy.

Statements like that made these people seem eager to legitimise America’s horrible history of white supremacy. I was amazed at how much these people pointed to that past as something to aspire to, something to return to. And they had had spent thousands of dollars on costumes and gear to get as close as they could to actually going back in time. It was just too much for me.

Again and again on our trip, I saw white Americans yearn for a time that had long since passed—a time that, often, they seemed to barely understand. It was only after the trip was over that I realised that it was the gulf between these backward-looking fantasies and this modern moment that has made America such an ugly and angry place to be recently...

Bundy, I think, was the producer of the enactment.

http://cwmemory.com/2016/08/15/when-civi...ze-racism/

No, the Bundy in question was Cliven Bundy,  infamous from the standoff on federal lands in 2014 in Nevada, and later in Oregon.
The author had interviewed him while travelling across the country. Bundy had made comments that blacks might have been better off as slaves in modern times.   
I dug deep into the comments from the blog post linked above. I can see how these reenactments provide a platform for racist hateful  comments. 
Go back to the good old days, indeed. 

[Dancefortwo]

I read an interesting article written by a black guy who joined a Civil War reenactment on the Union side.   

I donned a hotter-than-hell wool costume so I could look the part of a Union soldier and hopped around in military formations, shooting off caps in the direction of Confederate cosplayers. But every time there was a lull in the action, I heard people saying off-the-wall shit—that slavery wasn’t that bad for blacks, that enslaved blacks weren’t brutalised, that enslaved blacks loved the Confederacy so much they fought for it in the South’s “integrated” military… When I heard this last bit, I knew we had to get out of there. The producers had wanted us to spend the night at the reenactment camp, but there was no way I was sleeping in a place where people legitimately believed that a large number of enslaved blacks wilfully supported their own bondage. The idea was even more reprehensible than what I’d heard from Bundy.

Statements like that made these people seem eager to legitimise America’s horrible history of white supremacy. I was amazed at how much these people pointed to that past as something to aspire to, something to return to. And they had had spent thousands of dollars on costumes and gear to get as close as they could to actually going back in time. It was just too much for me.

Again and again on our trip, I saw white Americans yearn for a time that had long since passed—a time that, often, they seemed to barely understand. It was only after the trip was over that I realised that it was the gulf between these backward-looking fantasies and this modern moment that has made America such an ugly and angry place to be recently...

Bundy, I think, was the producer of the enactment.

http://cwmemory.com/2016/08/15/when-civi...ze-racism/

No, the Bundy in question was Cliven Bundy,  infamous from the standoff on federal lands in 2014 in Nevada, and later in Oregon.
The author had interviewed him while travelling across the country. Bundy had made comments that blacks might have been better off as slaves in modern times.   
I dug deep into the comments from the blog post linked above. I can see how these reenactments provide a platform for racist hateful  comments. 
Go back to the good old days, indeed. 

Oh wow.  I didn't realize that was the same Bundy as the federal land standoff.  Thanks for the information.   Just from a casual web search it seems that in the US  Civil War reenactments are more popular than American Revolution War reenactments.  I don't think the American Revolution has the "lost cause", "if only" nostalgia going for it.

[SYZ]

I've never understood the purpose of any war/battle reenactments. To me it seems to be the glorification of thousands of people being killed, many in the most excruciating ways possible.

I have to disagree.  Reenactments, whether US civil wars, Gallipolli, or Botany Bay are nothing more than
historical reminders of the good, the indifferent, or the evil of the time period.  They don't "glorify" wars or
the war dead, any more that the annual Australian ANZAC parades would been seen to be glorifying war.

I'm also unsure these days as to why so many Americans have a need to conveniently label everything they
disagree with as "racist"?

They seem to think they can erase the US's lesser agreeable historical moments by forgetting about them.
These reenactments may be a stark real-time reminder of the social mores of times past—which for some
are apparently an uncomfortable memory.

What next?  Destroy all the old movies and books that portray people in an (allegedly) racist light?  
"Gone With The Wind" or "The Jazz Singer".  What about "Birth Of A Nation" or "Song of the South".

—By confirming the you've "never understood" period reenactments, you've more or less answered your own implicit question.

[skyking]

Take a moment to read the link and the blog before you comment on racism. The young black man was asked to "suit up" as a confederate soldier of color, part of a false narrative that blacks fought for the South and were happy with their enslavement. He confronted that guy, but I have not found the video of it that was mentioned. It is from 2016.
Embedded in the history is a whole lot of bullshit that keeps getting perpetuated, and that is indeed racist to the core.
EDIT: Here's a link to the blogger's book on the subject.
http://cwmemory.com/searching-for-black-...tent-myth/

[trdsf]

We were invited to a SCA event as guests.   My husband was into making his own long bows and arrow heads and participated in archery tournaments around these parts so someone from  SCA archery invited us.  I went through my costume supplies which is fairly extensive and found something to wear and we trecked off to the SCA gathering.   It was ok but it's a strange world.   (I suppose a lot of people feel that way about theatre people too.     )   At the end of the day someone was crowned king or queen of something or other. There were lots of people dressed up as pirates which was fun.

The SCA is its own world, yes.  By and large, the people in it are great, very creative, and I sometimes miss it... but not enough to want to commit the time to re-joining.  Pirates are new, though -- there weren't any when I was in (the 80s).  The big thing then was that 'period' (the acceptable time frame from which to create one's persona) had just been extended to 1650 or something like that, so we had a fresh influx of cavaliers (aka 'fabulous fops').

[Dancefortwo]

I've never understood the purpose of any war/battle reenactments. To me it seems to be the glorification of thousands of people being killed, many in the most excruciating ways possible.

I have to disagree.  Reenactments, whether US civil wars, Gallipolli, or Botany Bay are nothing more than
historical reminders of the good, the indifferent, or the evil of the time period.  They don't "glorify" wars or
the war dead, any more that the annual Australian ANZAC parades would been seen to be glorifying war.

I'm also unsure these days as to why so many Americans have a need to conveniently label everything they
disagree with as "racist"?

They seem to think they can erase the US's lesser agreeable historical moments by forgetting about them.
These reenactments may be a stark real-time reminder of the social mores of times past—which for some
are apparently an uncomfortable memory.

What next?  Destroy all the old movies and books that portray people in an (allegedly) racist light?  
"Gone With The Wind" or "The Jazz Singer".  What about "Birth Of A Nation" or "Song of the South".

—By confirming the you've "never understood" period reenactments, you've more or less answered your own implicit question.

What about "Birth Of A Nation" 

 

Birth of a Nation was a film version of "The Clansmen" which is a book about the KKK.  It's probably one of the most racist films ever made.  African Americans are shown to be lazy, brutish and deserving of a lynching.  In the end of the film the KKK come in to save the day from Reconstruction and Black people having any sort of power. In 1914 the KKK was on it's way into the dustbin of history until Birth of a Nation came out.  The membership skyrocketed after that.  DW Griffiths father was a Confederate in the Civil War.

https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/2015...-ever-made

[Tres Leches]

It's a niche hobby done by guys who like to play dress-up and playact.

I don't get the enthusiastic waving of traitorous Confederate flags during this playacting though. Come to think of it, I don't get why guys want to re-enact such a painful period in the country's history. Of all the momentous events in the last 240+ years, that's the one they choose to revisit over and over again? Do guys in other countries re-enact their long ago civil wars? I don't think so. What does that say about the US?

-Teresa

[SYZ]

Frankly I think that doing reenactments of side that supported slavery speaks very poorly of person moral fiber. I can't see how pretending to be defender of slavery is educational. Whatever is worth learning about these times can be learnt from books or during museum visits - wearing the uniforms of side that wanted abhorrent practice to persists is just disgusting.

Like some other respondents here, I think you're missing a salient point.  At that time, 150 years ago,
what we now rightly classify as abhorrent behaviour was the societal norm. It's fruitless attempting to compare
21st century US mores and morals with those of the Civil War days.

And with due respect, I think living in Poland, you've not had any real-life experiences of black-inspired racism,
as has (and does) the USA, and to a lesser degree Australia and the UK.

According to the CIA World Fact Book, 96.7% of Poland's population is composed of ethnic Poles. Germans, the
second-largest ethnic group, make up a mere 0.4% of the population. Belarusians and Ukrainians—the next most
populous groups—each account for only 0.1%.

Polish sculptor Mateusz Sikora was showing black American news correspondent, Elliott Hester, around Warsaw,
and told him that "Polish people don't see too many blacks".  When Mateusz took him on a tour the following
day, Elliot ran "into a little bit of racism." A group of giggling adolescent schoolgirls confronted him shyly in the
Old Town, and one by one had their photos taken with him, sitting on a bench.

It was a form of unintended racial prejudice served up not by fundamentalists or garden-variety bigots, but by
young Polish girls who had never seen a black man in person.

—As a matter of interest, have you ever seen a black person face-to-face?

[skyking]

That t was a hugely profitable and cruel practice 170 years ago does nothing to excuse it. People all over the world saw it for what it was, BACK THEN!

[jerry mcmasters]

I've seen a few in the past and talked to the reenactors. The sense I got was big-time history nerds (a good thing) that enjoyed really getting into the nitty gritty of military history, especially (of course) tactical details and troop movements. Comaraderie. Friendship. Old dudes getting away from family for a weekend. No doubt the southern units attract some racists but I don't think the process is any kind of great political statement.

[Dancefortwo]

It's a niche hobby done by guys who like to play dress-up and playact.

I don't get the enthusiastic waving of traitorous Confederate flags during this playacting though. Come to think of it, I don't get why guys want to re-enact such a painful period in the country's history. Of all the momentous events in the last 240+ years, that's the one they choose to revisit over and over again? Do guys in other countries re-enact their long ago civil wars? I don't think so. What does that say about the US?

-Teresa

Do guys in other countries re-enact their long ago civil wars?

OMG, yes!  You name the battle and guys reenact it.  Don't as me why. 

[Tres Leches]

Frankly I think that doing reenactments of side that supported slavery speaks very poorly of person moral fiber. I can't see how pretending to be defender of slavery is educational. Whatever is worth learning about these times can be learnt from books or during museum visits - wearing the uniforms of side that wanted abhorrent practice to persists is just disgusting.

Like some other respondents here, I think you're missing a salient point.  At that time, 150 years ago,
what we now rightly classify as abhorrent behaviour was the societal norm. It's fruitless attempting to compare
21st century US mores and morals with those of the Civil War days.

What's the deal with reliving that abhorrent behavior in modern times, though? Isn't it enough that it happened once? Why keep acting it out it over and over?
@Szuchow is right, the study and knowledge of humans visiting atrocities on other humans belongs in museums and history books but acting it out in real life in 2020 is weird.

-Teresa

[SYZ]

That it was a hugely profitable and cruel practice 170 years ago does nothing to excuse it. People all over the world saw it for what it was, BACK THEN!

Not here in Australia, where we were treating the Aboriginals in much the same way as the blacks were in America.
We were systematically killing them off in Tasmania in order to rid the island state of them entirely.  And across the
mainland, Aborigines were used as virtual slaves, denied health care and education, had their children stolen from
them, and given copious amounts of alcohol to numb any complaints against whitey.

It was only in 1967 that Aborigines were officially acknowledged as "citizens" of what amounted to their own country,
and allowed to vote in State and Federal elections for the first time.

It'd be more correct then to say that people "all over the world" were, understandably, unaware of what it was—considering
that global communication was in its very early infancy. And of course, the passage of time does change society's mores
and morals.  These sorts of societal changes have happened even in my lifetime.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

What's the deal with reliving that abhorrent behavior in modern times, though? Isn't it enough that it happened once? Why keep acting it out it over and over?
@Szuchow is right, the study and knowledge of humans visiting atrocities on other humans belongs in museums and history books but acting it out in real life in 2020 is weird.

-Teresa

Teresa, do you think the reenactors are keeping slaves?

[Tres Leches]

What's the deal with reliving that abhorrent behavior in modern times, though? Isn't it enough that it happened once? Why keep acting it out it over and over?
@Szuchow is right, the study and knowledge of humans visiting atrocities on other humans belongs in museums and history books but acting it out in real life in 2020 is weird.

-Teresa

Teresa, do you think the reenactors are keeping slaves?

Why, yes, of course I do. 

-Teresa