[split] Reason

[brewerb]

This is a good example of what I was trying to warn you against: putting words in our mouths.  As an atheist, I do not acknowledge that I have faith or beliefs, or that I sin, by any of the religious definitions of these words because I am not religious.  For that matter, I don't think anyone sins, because sinning is defined as an immoral act against a divine law which I do not acknowledge exists.

We atheists are used to discussing tough and emotionally charged issues.  Are you?

Yes. I'm only on the other side of that discussion. 

You are emotionally fixated with your ideological possession. It clouds your judgment and ability to reason. Theists love as atheists love. The only difference is that theists love, among other things, a deity and teachings which the atheists do not. The same applies to faith, belief, and sin. 

Do you expect your spouse, family or friends, government, money or even the sun will function as you are accustomed to although you don't actually know that they will? That's faith. As Paul defined it as "the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld." (Hebrews 11:11) Only difference is you don't have faith in a deity. 

Belief is the same. You believe in your spouse, family, friends, government, money and the sun. You trust they will be there for you. You don't, however, believe in a deity. Now, it may well be that you believe in the existence of a deity but have no faith or belief in that deity like you would your spouse etc. but that is still atheist. Rare, but possible. The "A" in atheist implies the antithesis or anti theism. That doesn't necessarily negate the acknowledgement of a deity. At least in my opinion it doesn't, but I'm splitting hairs here for the sake of an argument. You don't have to deny the existence of a deity in order to reject it. 

It was an ancient practice for the Sumerians to deify, or make gods of their deceased kings. Tammuz, for example. (Ezekiel Chapter 8) So, Tammuz is a god. I acknowledge his existence as such. I don't "believe" i.e. trust in Tammuz. Don't worship or venerate Tammuz, but I can't logically deny he was a god. Your problem is you think "God" is a name of an alleged creator deity. That's only one god. As Paul said: "Now concerning the eating of foods offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no God but one. For even though there are those who are called "gods," whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many "gods" and many "lords," there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him." (1 Corinthians 8:4-6) 

God means mighty. Lord means having authority, usually, but not necessarily, granted by someone else. Landlord. Godfather. The debate in Christianity over monotheism or polytheism is nonsensical. The writers of the Bible from Moses to John, were actually henotheists. 

Sin. How could you sin . . . against me? Sin is a Hebrew word which means, to literally miss the mark. For example, in the Bible if someone with a slingshot, or an archer or stone thrower missed the target, or mark, they sinned. To sin against God or a person has a similar meaning. If I say to you "Respond to this post before the day is over" and you don't, then you have sinned against me. Adam sinned my missing the mark set by God. As a product of the environment surrounding that sin we all inherit sin, whether we acknowledge it or not. Again, the only difference is, you don't acknowledge that as a reality. That doesn't mean you don't sin.

Your christian programming is showing. And your familiarity with forum protocol and BB code also. I'm not convinced you are the person you originally claimed to be. Certainly not a 17 year old.

[Alan V]

You are emotionally fixated with your ideological possession. It clouds your judgment and ability to reason. Theists love as atheists love. The only difference is that theists love, among other things, a deity and teachings which the atheists do not. The same applies to faith, belief, and sin. 

I assume you mean "ideological position."  Since you don't know me, you are in no position to tell when my judgment has been clouded.  Yes, people are very similar, but even people who share the common English language use it differently to capture different meanings.  That's why you will have to listen to how atheists express themselves -- if you are really interested in what we think rather than just about what you think about us.

Do you expect your spouse, family or friends, government, money or even the sun will function as you are accustomed to although you don't actually know that they will? That's faith.

Belief is the same. You believe in your spouse, family, friends, government, money and the sun. You trust they will be there for you.

I call those issues of inductive logic or probabilities rather than faith or belief.  To me, faith is belief without evidence. That in turn is different than belief with evidence.

Your problem is you think "God" is a name of an alleged creator deity.

You are far too much of a newbie to understand what "my problem" is.  I have investigated a certain number of god-concepts, and have problems with all of them.

Sin is a Hebrew word which means, to literally miss the mark.

That is called the genetic fallacy.

Per Google: "The genetic fallacy (also known as the fallacy of origins or fallacy of virtue) is a fallacy of irrelevance that is based solely on someone's or something's history, origin, or source rather than its current meaning or context."

Again, if you are interested in understanding how atheists think, you have to understand our usage.  Until you stop putting words in our mouths, you are just amusing yourself.

[SYZ]

After 75 comments in this thread alone, it's more than obvious our first resident theist troll is hot to trot.

[Ima Believer]

I assume you mean "ideological position."

No. I mean ideologically possessed.

[Ima Believer]

Your christian programming is showing. And your familiarity with forum protocol and BB code also. I'm not convinced you are the person you originally claimed to be. Certainly not a 17 year old.

Why or more importantly why does it matter? This isn't my first forum, it's my first theist / atheist forum. BB code is easy. If I want to know how to do something I just click on reply on a post where that code is used and see how it's done. Or check out the icons above the text field. How old do I have to be to figure that out. 

Why is everything about me? Why can't you just discuss and debate? How old do you want me to be? Who do you want me to be? What difference does it make. I don't want to talk about me. You're wasting my time. I can't have that.

My Christian programming is showing? What the hell did you expect?

[Ima Believer]

After 75 comments in this thread alone, it's more than obvious our first resident theist troll is hot to trot.

Everyone is a troll that disagrees with you. That's funny. It says a lot more about you then it does me.

[brewerb]

Your christian programming is showing. And your familiarity with forum protocol and BB code also. I'm not convinced you are the person you originally claimed to be. Certainly not a 17 year old.

Why or more importantly why does it matter? This isn't my first forum, it's my first theist / atheist forum. BB code is easy. If I want to know how to do something I just click on reply on a post where that code is used and see how it's done. Or check out the icons above the text field. How old do I have to be to figure that out. 

Why is everything about me? Why can't you just discuss and debate? How old do you want me to be? Who do you want me to be? What difference does it make. I don't want to talk about me. You're wasting my time. I can't have that.

My Christian programming is showing? What the hell did you expect?

We're now back to why the attempt at deception? Did you think you were being clever?

It makes a difference because no one likes to be intentionally deceived. Once the deception is detected, it colors all of the other interactions.

[Ima Believer]

We're now back to why the attempt at deception? Did you think you were being clever?

It makes a difference because no one likes to be intentionally deceived. Once the deception is detected, it colors all of the other interactions.

You are going to have to come to the conclusion that I'm not interested in playing your sock game. Don't worry, though, I'm just about done here. I'm quickly coming to the conclusion that I'm wasting my time here, and I won't do that for much longer.

[brewerb]

We're now back to why the attempt at deception? Did you think you were being clever?

It makes a difference because no one likes to be intentionally deceived. Once the deception is detected, it colors all of the other interactions.

You are going to have to come to the conclusion that I'm not interested in playing your sock game. Don't worry, though, I'm just about done here. I'm quickly coming to the conclusion that I'm wasting my time here, and I won't do that for much longer.

You could always start over, this time just be up front with us. Drop the Pretense. 

Also, don't assume that you have something new and different or unique from the world of theism, you don't. Most of us have heard it all before. Just tell us what you think/believe and we'll respond. Remember, this is a discussion, not a debate. There is no winner.

I said this before, as far as I'm concerned you can believe what ever you want when it comes to god(s) and religion. Understand that I probably won't validate that belief, other than you're more than welcome to hold it. But the welcome will stop when you make value judgments about those that disagree.

[Alan V]

I assume you mean "ideological position."

No. I mean ideologically possessed.

Ignored.

[TheGentlemanBastard]

Don't worry, though, I'm just about done here. I'm quickly coming to the conclusion that I'm wasting my time here,

Any time you enter a new environment with a closed mind, you're wasting your time.

and I won't do that for much longer.

You'll be doing it the rest of your life, unless you either open your mind to other ideas or surround yourself only with those who parrot your beliefs back to you.

[Dancefortwo]

We're now back to why the attempt at deception? Did you think you were being clever?

It makes a difference because no one likes to be intentionally deceived. Once the deception is detected, it colors all of the other interactions.

You are going to have to come to the conclusion that I'm not interested in playing your sock game. Don't worry, though, I'm just about done here. I'm quickly coming to the conclusion that I'm wasting my time here, and I won't do that for much longer.

Did you think you'd convert someone here?  

[Thumpalumpacus]

No big loss.

[Kim]

Wait, what?   Ima justinbelieber is gone, already?  But, but ... it's only a few pages into this thread. That whole instant gratification thing is counterproductive to a well rounded education, let alone making friends.

I figured he/she just needed time to remove the crust & get secure.

It's too bad he/she hasn't shared any unique or original ideas here. I like it when they do that - it feels good to know the younger monkeys are out there, kicking up dust.

Might've been nice to have another teen around.

[Alan V]

Might've been nice to gave another teen around.    

I guess teens can't stand us old folks, who actually have thought about these issues for decades.  We make everything so complicated!  

[Deesse23]

Wtaf is wrong with people like this? Starts off with telling some obvious lies about being homeschooled by atheists. Claims not to be religious, then quotes bible and gets all aggravated. Joins a forum, shits all over the rugs. Makes asinine statements like "Eric Clapton is a god" and points fingers at "stupid atheists".

Wtaf turns people into such babbling idiots?

[Kim]

Wtaf is wrong with peopkle like this?
-----
Wtaf turns people into such babbling idiots?

I'm going to guess it's the same thing that creates atheists: religion.

[jerry mcmasters]

Well I wish him well. He does seem to have tried to respond, though in our view unsatisfactorily, to everyone that responded to him. It probably does get confusing keeping track of what points are being made. That said, as others have noted, he thought he had a rhetorical "gotcha" and didn't understand why it wasn't landing.

[Szuchow]

Wtaf is wrong with people like this? Starts off with telling some obvious lies about being homeschooled by atheists. Claims not to be religious, then quotes bible and gets all aggravated. Joins a forum, shits all over the rugs. Makes asinine statements like "Eric Clapton is a god" and points fingers at "stupid atheists".

Wtaf turns people into such babbling idiots?

Lack of good education coupled with indoctrination I guess.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Wtaf is wrong with people like this? Starts off with telling some obvious lies about being homeschooled by atheists. Claims not to be religious, then quotes bible and gets all aggravated. Joins a forum, shits all over the rugs. Makes asinine statements like "Eric Clapton is a god" and points fingers at "stupid atheists".

Wtaf turns people into such babbling idiots?

Lack of good education coupled with indoctrination I guess.

"Give me a man when he's X and I'll have him forever."

[mordant]

Well I wish him well.  He does seem to have tried to respond, though in our view unsatisfactorily, to everyone that responded to him.  It probably does get confusing keeping track of what points are being made.  That said, as others have noted, he thought he had a rhetorical "gotcha" and didn't understand why it wasn't landing.

He's not yet reached his 18th birthday. I didn't realize that right away until I read more of his stuff.

He's a typical young buck who thinks he, unlike countless 17 year old before him, has it all sorted out and easily in hand.

Life will teach him otherwise, and it was an honor to participate in that educational process. Lesson the First being, have a little deference and humility when you come into a new group of people and listen more than speak until you actually know your topic matter and the actual positions and motivations of the people you're interacting with. Or put more succinctly: don't assume too much.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Well I wish him well.  He does seem to have tried to respond, though in our view unsatisfactorily, to everyone that responded to him.  It probably does get confusing keeping track of what points are being made.  That said, as others have noted, he thought he had a rhetorical "gotcha" and didn't understand why it wasn't landing.

He's not yet reached his 18th birthday. I didn't realize that right away until I read more of his stuff.

He's a typical young buck who thinks he, unlike countless 17 year old before him, has it all sorted out and easily in hand.

Life will teach him otherwise, and it was an honor to participate in that educational process. Lesson the First being, have a little deference and humility when you come into a new group of people and listen more than speak until you actually know your topic matter and the actual positions and motivations of the people you're interacting with. Or put more succinctly: don't assume too much.

Pa Thump had a pithy way of putting it: "You've got two ears and one mouth for a reason, use them in that order."