The "myth" of the dying church

[mordant]

Interesting grasping at straws here by an evangelical remarking on the "supposed demise" of the church, the rise of the nones, etc.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/geneveith/...ng-church/

His attempt to comfort himself consists basically of saying that we don't need the weaklings that are leaving the church anyway ... it will "purify" and "strengthen" the church. Good luck with that.

Of course in a sense he's right ... because the ones who don't leave will circle the wagons, radicalize, and bring us a little closer to "Handmaid's Tale" territory. So what he's pointing out is actually dangerous. A cornered animal is always dangerous.

[Free]

Interesting grasping at straws here by an evangelical remarking on the "supposed demise" of the church, the rise of the nones, etc.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/geneveith/...ng-church/

His attempt to comfort himself consists basically of saying that we don't need the weaklings that are leaving the church anyway ... it will "purify" and "strengthen" the church. Good luck with that.

Of course in a sense he's right ... because the ones who don't leave will circle the wagons, radicalize, and bring us a little closer to "Handmaid's Tale" territory. So what he's pointing out is actually dangerous. A cornered animal is always dangerous.

Time will eradicate religious beliefs. With time comes better educational techniques, including the teaching of rationalization, logic, and reasoning. 

The rise of reason will hew the dying forests of religious beliefs and create fertile soil for a brighter future for human kind.

[Phaedrus]

Time will eradicate religious beliefs.

That is science fiction. Religion, unfortunately, will never completely be eradicated. Rather, it will instead become the minority of no significance.

[mordant]

Time will eradicate religious beliefs.

That is science fiction. Religion, unfortunately, will never completely be eradicated. Rather, it will instead become the minority of no significance.

True, but I don't think Free probably meant it that literally. Insignificance works for me about as well as eradication. In some ways, even better.

[Free]

Time will eradicate religious beliefs.

That is science fiction. Religion, unfortunately, will never completely be eradicated. Rather, it will instead become the minority of no significance.

You'll always have the loons. We will end up with sleeper cells of Christians and Muslims plotting an attack strategy on the fresh young minds, and they will get a few here and there.

But essentially, if they do become a minority of no significance as you say, then its influence has indeed been effectively eradicated.

[Minimalist]

Ironically, the effect of nominal believers leaving is to purify the church and make it stronger.

I think Ernst Rohm once said something similar about the S.A.

Of course, he ended up dead.

[Alan V]

Time will eradicate religious beliefs.

That is science fiction. Religion, unfortunately, will never completely be eradicated. Rather, it will instead become the minority of no significance.

Human laziness, conformity, and lack of quality education being what they are, along with the human desire for an afterlife, I don't suppose religion will ever disappear or weaken to insignificance.  It just waxes and wanes.

Heck, I have an atheist friend who can't admit we die when we die, since he's still hoping for some version of an afterlife. He hangs out with Unitarian Universalists.

[mordant]

Time will eradicate religious beliefs.

That is science fiction. Religion, unfortunately, will never completely be eradicated. Rather, it will instead become the minority of no significance.

Human laziness, conformity, and lack of quality education being what they are, along with the human desire for an afterlife, I don't suppose religion will ever disappear or weaken to insignificance.  It just waxes and wanes.

Heck, I have an atheist friend who can't admit we die when we die, since he's still hoping for some version of an afterlife.  He hangs out with Unitarian Universalists.

The UU congregations are a mix of theists and atheists of various religious backgrounds. My local congregation has an unusually high proportion of former Buddhists (an arguably "atheist" religion) due to there being two Buddhist communities including a major temple in this fairly small city -- as well as a significant minority of actual atheists. As you suggest, that plus the mixture of liberal Christian / post-Christian believers seems to average out to a hazy, dilute belief in an afterlife in some people. I don't know anyone with an afterlife belief who has really thought it through, because it's an irrational, incoherent belief anyway -- quite apart from it being unsubstantiatable and highly unlikely.

Everyone [fails to] handle the fact of their mortality in different ways. You have to really accept your mortality in order to truly drop afterlife beliefs. Your friend just isn't ready to stop avoiding what they know on some level is staring them in the face.

It's not that I'm that advanced in this regard; I've just had my face rubbed in suffering and death enough that I have little choice but to see it for what it is. Sometimes I think it's pointless to push anyone in that direction unless life does it for them, or they think their own way through it on their own time. Let people have their illusions, so long as they don't impose them on you, I say.

[Alan V]

Everyone [fails to] handle the fact of their mortality in different ways. You have to really accept your mortality in order to truly drop afterlife beliefs. Your friend just isn't ready to stop avoiding what they know on some level is staring them in the face.

I guess there are different levels of acceptance.  I think the evidence clearly says we die when we die. Does that mean I will be ready when the time comes. No.

And I've certainly stopped believing in systems which say you have to prepare in some way for an afterlife.  If honesty isn't enough for some people, why should I care at all?

[mordant]

Everyone [fails to] handle the fact of their mortality in different ways. You have to really accept your mortality in order to truly drop afterlife beliefs. Your friend just isn't ready to stop avoiding what they know on some level is staring them in the face.

I guess there are different levels of acceptance.  I think the evidence clearly says we die when we die.  Does that mean I will be ready when the time comes.  No.

And I've certainly stopped believing in systems which say you have to prepare in some way for an afterlife.  If honesty isn't enough for some people, why should I care at all?

I have no problem with death -- only with the dying process and the lack of choice in the timing and manner of death. That's what I'm not particularly ready for, although, I'm letting go even of that. It will be what it will be.

My wife and I had dinner with another couple tonight. They're our age, and I mentioned that when our two dogs -- about halfway through their dog life spans -- are gone, that will probably be our last. Partly because they tie us down when we want to travel for longer periods, and partly because it will be getting dicey that we can see another dog through to the end. I mean we'll be pushing 70 when they're gone, and another dog would take us into our 80s.

This rather took them aback, and seemed like something that was maybe morbid for us to be thinking about. But to us it's just a practical consideration, and to not have it even occur to you strikes me as avoidant and/or wishful thinking.

One of our neighbors, despite being 72 and despite having a diagnosis of advanced pancreatic cancer, would not resign a board position she held when she was unable to fulfill her duties, and did not make hospice arrangements either. As a result, like most people, she only got the benefit of a couple days of hospice care at the end, when she could have had weeks of greater physical and emotional comfort and ease.

So it goes. I'm finding that it's better to keep such thoughts to myself though, because most people prefer to remain pretty firmly in denial of their mortality, even as it approaches. It's too bad, because it means in some ways they're not living as fully as they could and we're not helping each other when we won't openly discuss the elephant in the room. Acceptance is freeing.

[Alan V]

My wife and I had dinner with another couple tonight. They're our age, and I mentioned that when our two dogs -- about halfway through their dog life spans -- are gone, that will probably be our last. Partly because they tie us down when we want to travel for longer periods, and partly because it will be getting dicey that we can see another dog through to the end. I mean we'll be pushing 70 when they're gone, and another dog would take us into our 80s.

This rather took them aback, and seemed like something that was maybe morbid for us to be thinking about. But to us it's just a practical consideration, and to not have it even occur to you strikes me as avoidant and/or wishful thinking.

That reminds me of my mom who didn't downsize her house or belongings even though she knew, for most of a decade, that she was dying of cancer.  In the end, she couldn't take care of any of it and it all became an overwhelming burden to her.

At 63, I'm already reading certain books for the last time and giving them away. I hope to leave everything manageable by the time I disappear.

[Minimalist]

The churchies themselves admit the problem. 

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/...hows-31267

The decline in “membership” of a specific church or parish community appears especially pronounced among Catholics and young people.
Nearly one out of three millennials, defined as people born between 1980 and 2000, describe themselves as having no religion. Of the 68% who said they do have a religious faith, only 57% said they belong to a church.
Twenty years ago, when members of “Generation X” were the same age as millennials, 62% --nearly two out of three--were members of a church. Today, 54% of Generation X members belong to a church, and 79% said they have a religious belief of some sort.
Those born in 1945 or earlier were the most religious age group surveyed. Only nine percent said they did not have a religion, and nearly three out of four believers consider themselves to “belong” to a church.
Since 1998-2000, the percentage of Catholics who say they belong to a church has dropped by 13 points. In 1998-2000, 76% of Catholics said they were members of a church. By 2016-2018, this figure had dropped to 63%.

I wonder what the tipping point is when this shit is no longer economically viable?

[Alan V]

I wonder what the tipping point is when this shit is no longer economically viable?

I live in a suburb of Philadelphia, and several area churches have been closed and stand empty.

[Minimalist]

They can always be re-purposed into something more useful.

[mordant]

They can always be re-purposed into something more useful.

In Quebec City, we encountered a church that's been turned into a public library. I'm sure they dispense more accurate knowledge in one day than the church did in a whole decade of its original operations.

[Drich]

This should be an easy enough question to answer especially after the next census has been taken.

As it stands 74% in the Us belong to the church.. 74% of 350ish million people belong to God in some form or fashion of thier own choosing. and 6% represent the 'others.'

I don't see it.

I do not see the church dying. it see ebbs and flows. when things are good people sleep in on sunday... when things are tight and you need a job or better one to make ends meat then the church is standing room only. Thank trump and his economy for the church emptying out.

Not to mention there is and has been a huge movement to the mega churches. where do you think those members are sourced from? from those little churches you guys are turning into cafe's. it takes hundreds of these little neighborhood churches to fill a 10,000 seat mega church for 3 services every sunday. Not to mention there is a larger movement to catch your jesus on line. Ie video conference sermons and chats even places like this can be considered a worship or study.

The church is simply changing. it is not what it was nor can it be if it is to meet the needs of the people.

[possibletarian]

This should be an easy enough question to answer especially after the next census has been taken.

As it stands 74% in the Us belong to the church.. 74% of 350ish million people belong to God in some form or fashion of thier own choosing. and 6% represent the 'others.'

I don't see it.

I do not see the church dying. it see ebbs and flows. when things are good people sleep in on sunday... when things are tight and you need a job or better one to make ends meat then the church is standing room only. Thank trump and his economy for the church emptying out.

Not to mention there is and has been a huge movement to the mega churches. where do you think those members are sourced from? from those little churches you guys are turning into cafe's. it takes hundreds of these little neighborhood churches to fill a 10,000 seat mega church for 3 services every sunday. Not to mention there is a larger movement to catch your jesus on line. Ie video conference sermons and chats even places like this can be considered a worship or study.

The church is simply changing. it is not what it was nor can it be if it is to meet the needs of the people.

That's exactly what they said in the U.K., till census after census saw the results and attendance drop and drop year after year.

There is a certain truth to what you say about ebb and flow from religion as times are good and bad, but the number of people ebbing back towards christianity is declining rapidly.

[Minimalist]

Hey, look what the cat dragged in.  And still as fucking stupid as ever huh, Drippy?

Here's a little hint for you:  It's your churchie motherfuckers who are bemoaning the demise of religion.  As far as we are concerned it can't come fast enough.

https://religionnews.com/2018/12/10/reli...llennials/

Religion declining in importance for many Americans, especially for Millennials

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs...-religion/

Fertility and the Decline of American Religion

https://www.worldreligionnews.com/religi...ligion-u-s

Catholic Church Has Lost More Members Than Any Other Religion in the U.S.

https://www.christianheadlines.com/colum...-2019.html

White U.S. congregations are withering. From 1991 to 2014, the number of white Protestants declined by a third, a trend that will continue as they age: Though 20 percent of Americans are 18 to 34 years of age, only 1 in 10 white Protestant congregations reflects that in their attendance. As a result, more than half of U.S. congregations now have fewer than 100 members. Hundreds will close this year.

All of this whining from religitards is GOOD NEWS as far as I am concerned.  Keep whining, assholes.  Maybe even pray to your non-existent god.  That will do a lot of good.

[Drich]

This should be an easy enough question to answer especially after the next census has been taken.

As it stands 74% in the Us belong to the church.. 74% of 350ish million people belong to God in some form or fashion of thier own choosing. and 6% represent the 'others.'

I don't see it.

I do not see the church dying. it see ebbs and flows. when things are good people sleep in on sunday... when things are tight and you need a job or better one to make ends meat then the church is standing room only. Thank trump and his economy for the church emptying out.

Not to mention there is and has been a huge movement to the mega churches. where do you think those members are sourced from? from those little churches you guys are turning into cafe's. it takes hundreds of these little neighborhood churches to fill a 10,000 seat mega church for 3 services every sunday. Not to mention there is a larger movement to catch your jesus on line. Ie video conference sermons and chats even places like this can be considered a worship or study.

The church is simply changing. it is not what it was nor can it be if it is to meet the needs of the people.

That's exactly what they said in the U.K., till census after census saw the results and attendance drop and drop year after year.

There is a certain truth to what you say about ebb and flow from religion as times are good and bad, but the number of people ebbing back towards christianity is declining rapidly.

which again is why I started with this should be an easy thing to determine after the 2020 census... Not to mention there was never any mega churches in england like here. meaning churches that seat 10k people or more. I'm sure there are several churches in england that will accommodate 2000 or more which is the min requirement.. however Mega churches here in the US are still growing and poping up everywhere. and again what looks liked failed neighbrhood churches are really the result of the massive congergation sucking up members from every denomination.

I've been to one they are great and there is no hassle you can just be a member of the crowd and disappear if that is what you want. Lots of them are set up like coffee shops with free everything then lounge areas and going to church is like going to a theatrical event now. The bands play on a professional level often times will host a literal recording artist as art director, (of the churches near me was originally seeded/built by the good olde benny hinn (super televangelist) so it seats several thousand maybe 10 (looks like a massive ware house complex) the preacher now is some woman how happens to be married to the keyboard guy in Journey! who happens to be the music program director.) they rock out to jesus tunes but also have other music as well and special concerts and the like for members only. The church I went to pastor son was the hottest christian recording artist in the last 10 years and he too was a program director.. the cool thing there was he was a songwriter as well and out church where singing his hit songs before they came on the radio.. then they have broadway style plays every week or ever other week. I honestly do not know how they manage all of this stuff.

All i'm pointing out is just because the church does not look like you remember does not mean it is dead especially considering the numbers.

[Drich]

Hey, look what the cat dragged in.  And still as fucking stupid as ever huh, Drippy?

Here's a little hint for you:  It's your churchie motherfuckers who are bemoaning the demise of religion.  As far as we are concerned it can't come fast enough.

https://religionnews.com/2018/12/10/reli...llennials/

Religion declining in importance for many Americans, especially for Millennials

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs...-religion/

Fertility and the Decline of American Religion

https://www.worldreligionnews.com/religi...ligion-u-s

Catholic Church Has Lost More Members Than Any Other Religion in the U.S.

https://www.christianheadlines.com/colum...-2019.html

White U.S. congregations are withering. From 1991 to 2014, the number of white Protestants declined by a third, a trend that will continue as they age: Though 20 percent of Americans are 18 to 34 years of age, only 1 in 10 white Protestant congregations reflects that in their attendance. As a result, more than half of U.S. congregations now have fewer than 100 members. Hundreds will close this year.

All of this whining from religitards is GOOD NEWS as far as I am concerned.  Keep whining, assholes.  Maybe even pray to your non-existent god.  That will do a lot of good.

I see you still quote tertiary rags like if they where facts, Note I quoted idk actual census numbers and 74% is not a sign of anything dying. 6% however is not a great sign of life either... anyway glad to see you still kicking.

[Minimalist]

Those are your rags, dumbass.  Only religitards are upset that their power is diminishing.

I say "BRING IT ON."

The sooner you clowns vanish the better off we'll all be.

[possibletarian]

This should be an easy enough question to answer especially after the next census has been taken.

As it stands 74% in the Us belong to the church.. 74% of 350ish million people belong to God in some form or fashion of thier own choosing. and 6% represent the 'others.'

I don't see it.

I do not see the church dying. it see ebbs and flows. when things are good people sleep in on sunday... when things are tight and you need a job or better one to make ends meat then the church is standing room only. Thank trump and his economy for the church emptying out.

Not to mention there is and has been a huge movement to the mega churches. where do you think those members are sourced from? from those little churches you guys are turning into cafe's. it takes hundreds of these little neighborhood churches to fill a 10,000 seat mega church for 3 services every sunday. Not to mention there is a larger movement to catch your jesus on line. Ie video conference sermons and chats even places like this can be considered a worship or study.

The church is simply changing. it is not what it was nor can it be if it is to meet the needs of the people.

That's exactly what they said in the U.K., till census after census saw the results and attendance drop and drop year after year.

There is a certain truth to what you say about ebb and flow from religion as times are good and bad, but the number of people ebbing back towards christianity is declining rapidly.

which again is why I started with this should be an easy thing to determine after the 2020 census... Not to mention there was never any mega churches in england like here. meaning churches that seat 10k people or more. I'm sure there are several churches in england that will accommodate 2000 or more which is the min requirement.. however Mega churches here in the US are still growing and poping up everywhere. and again what looks liked failed neighbrhood churches are really the result of the massive congergation sucking up members from every denomination.

I've been to one they are great and there is no hassle you can just be a member of the crowd and disappear if that is what you want. Lots of them are set up like coffee shops with free everything then lounge areas and going to church is like going to a theatrical event now. The bands play on a professional level often times will host a literal recording artist as art director, (of the churches near me was originally seeded/built by the good olde benny hinn (super televangelist) so it seats several thousand maybe 10 (looks like a massive ware house complex) the preacher now is some woman how happens to be married to the keyboard guy in Journey! who happens to be the music program director.) they rock out to jesus tunes but also have other music as well and special concerts and the like for members only. The church I went to pastor son was the hottest christian recording artist in the last 10 years and he too was a program director.. the cool thing there was he was a songwriter as well and out church where singing his hit songs before they came on the radio.. then they have broadway style plays every week or ever other week. I honestly do not know how they manage all of this stuff.

All i'm pointing out is just because the church does not look like you remember does not mean it is dead especially considering the numbers.

You miss the point, less and less people are identifying as christian period.

mega churches are a sign of the decline of christianity, a huddling together in big groups instead of feeling comfortable in a smaller community, we had the same here people huddling in large and larger congregations (churches joining each other) which at the time was seem as a good cross denominational  exercise.

But year on year after shining big and bright for a while they started to decline, some getting even bigger memberships, but overall the number of christians declining.  I suspect the same will happen in the U.S. too, in fact that's what survey after survey shows.

It has the appearance of revival because there is lots of noise and light, it's a sure sign that christians have lost their confidence, and need more and more injects of 'praise noise and constant encouragement, hardly a people confident in their relationship with a god.

[Aractus]

Interesting grasping at straws here by an evangelical remarking on the "supposed demise" of the church, the rise of the nones, etc.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/geneveith/...ng-church/

What he's spectacularly wrong about is that followers of what he labels "liberal theology" are less spiritual or religious. That's utter rubbish, theologians like John Shelby Spong are deeply religious. Clearly he feels threatened by the liberal churches, this isn't that surprising really given the fact that they give people in conservative churches the positive framework to replace their dated dogmatic fundamentalist theology, and strip the church of its power and control over people.

[Minimalist]

The amusing thing is that he is arguing with stats that are being put out by religitards like him.  Except that they see the problem while Drippy plants his head in the sand.

http://www.churchleadership.org/apps/art...leid=42346

What is Going on with the Church in America?
The United States Census Bureau Records give some startling statistics, backed up by denominational reports and the Assemblies of God U.S. Missions:
· Every year more than 4000 churches close their doors compared to just over 1000 new church starts!
· There were about 4,500 new churches started between 1990 and 2000, with a twenty year average of nearly 1000 a year.
· Every year, 2.7 million church members fall into inactivity. This translates into the realization that people are leaving the church. From our research, we have found that they are leaving as hurting and wounded victims-of some kind of abuse, disillusionment, or just plain neglect!
· From 1990 to 2000, the combined membership of all Protestant denominations in the USA declined by almost 5 million members (9.5 percent), while the US population increased by 24 million (11 percent).
· At the turn of the last century (1900), there was a ratio of 27 churches per 10,000 people, as compared to the close of this century (2000) where we have 11 churches per 10,000 people in America! What has happened?
· Given the declining numbers and closures of Churches as compared to new church starts, there should have been over 38,000 new churches commissioned to keep up with the population growth.

Of course, I take great comfort in these stats which date back to around 2006-7 and which have only gotten worse since then.

Poor jebus.  Can't catch a break.

[skyking]

Q: How many people go to church each Sunday?
A: For years, the Gallup Research Organization has come up with a consistent figure — 40 percent of all Americans, or roughly 118 million people, who said they attended worship on the previous weekend. Recently, sociologists of religion have questioned that figure, saying Americans tend to exaggerate how often they attend. By actually counting the number of people who showed up at representative sample of churches, two researchers, Kirk Hadaway and Penny Marler found that only 20.4 percent of the population, or half the Gallup figure, attended church each weekend. 
As added proof for the accuracy of this smaller percentage of churchgoers, if 20.4% of Americans (approximately 63 million in 2010) attended the nation's 350,000 congregations weekly then the average attendance would be 180 people per congregation which is almost exactly the figure that numerous research studies have found.

here's a source, Drich.
Let's see yours
http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/fastfac...tml#attend