What is Time

[SteveII]

Yes it is only a model.

LMAO.
Indeed ... a "model" that bends light around galaxies. LMAO. You are SO ignorant of science you can't even understand an explanation when one is provided.
Your ignorance is astounding.
We're supposed to buy this shit from the likes of you, who never took a science class in his life ?
Ya see, Stevie, unsupported assertions from total non-experts don't really fly here.

More confused non-arguments.

Nope. Arguments you neither know anything about, nor even wish to understand.
BTW, you FAILED to say exactly what is wrong with the GPS facts. You actually have no reason, and are unable to argue the facts.

By now Stevie-Weavie-II, we're used to your flagrantly obvious MO. If you have no rebuttal, you simply deflect. Over and over. It's what you do.
In the last few pages of the other thread, there are MANY things you are unable to reply to, thus you just toss poo. It's what you do, and call names ... just like this little non-argument, is one of your little pieces of shit. You were caught here .. by surprise, in your ignorance you never knew that this topic was so hotly debated in Philosophy and Theology. You have no training. You're the typical internet fraud. You were caught with your ignorant pants down. And now, you're making an utter fool of yourself. Please continue. You always did seem to do nothing but spout the canned Fundie line on everything. Now you've surpassed yourself.

You can show us NOT ONE Physics text that says time is "only a model". LOL.
Probably one of THE most ignorant things ever stated here.

Oh well, back to "Jesus loves me this I know, cuz the Bible tells me so".

https://www.pbs.org/video/pbs-space-time...-illusion/

I was going to answer, then thought better. I simply don't like you, your style, your lack of character, your obvious anger issues, and your lack of any abilities to hold a civil exchange of ideas that is probably on par with a 12 year old playground bully. Rather than scrape the bottom of the AD barrel, I am going to avail myself of the ignore feature.

[Mark]

Shouldn't serious posts to this thread necessarily include relevant music videos?

[Mark]

I'm asking for a friend.

[Bucky Ball]

LMAO. Indeed ... a "model" that bends light around galaxies. LMAO. You are SO ignorant of science you can't even understand an explanation when one is provided.
Your ignorance is astounding.
We're supposed to buy this shit from the likes of you, who never took a science class in his life ?
Yes it is only a model.

Ya see, Stevie, unsupported assertions from total non-experts don't really fly here.

More confused non-arguments.

Nope. Arguments you neither know anything about, nor even wish to understand.
BTW, you FAILED to say exactly what is wrong with the GPS facts. You actually have no reason, and are unable to argue the facts.

By now Stevie-Weavie-II, we're used to your flagrantly obvious MO. If you have no rebuttal, you simply deflect. Over and over. It's what you do.
In the last few pages of the other thread, there are MANY things you are unable to reply to, thus you just toss poo. It's what you do, and call names ... just like this little non-argument, is one of your little pieces of shit. You were caught here .. by surprise, in your ignorance you never knew that this topic was so hotly debated in Philosophy and Theology. You have no training. You're the typical internet fraud. You were caught with your ignorant pants down. And now, you're making an utter fool of yourself. Please continue. You always did seem to do nothing but spout the canned Fundie line on everything. Now you've surpassed yourself.

You can show us NOT ONE Physics text that says time is "only a model". LOL.
Probably one of THE most ignorant things ever stated here.

Oh well, back to "Jesus loves me this I know, cuz the Bible tells me so".

https://www.pbs.org/video/pbs-space-time...-illusion/

I was going to answer, then thought better. I simply don't like you, your style, your lack of character, your obvious anger issues,  and your lack of any abilities to hold a civil exchange of ideas that is probably on par with a 12 year old playground bully. Rather than scrape the bottom of the AD barrel, I am going to avail myself of the ignore feature.

That's what you said before. What you don't like, is that you can't answer the questions I pose, and this time thing a.) you never heard about being a problem in Philosophy and Theology, and b.) you KNOW it's a threat to your illogical belief system.

How predictable. No answers, so instead he tosses poo and tries to change the subject.
Actually I was surprised you replied at all, as you claimed to have me on ignore before.
As I said above, when you are faced with questions you cannot answer, you obfuscate and throw poo, and try to change the subject, ....
just as you are doing now. You have never met me, yet you *claim* to be able to judge character. Ooooh you have a magic Jesus Judgment Power Ring. LOL.
You think I care what an ignorant pompous ass thinks ? Always the "angry atheist" bullshit. More obfuscation.
I don't suffer fools.

[Old Man Marsh]

Time is motion. Time is gravity. Time is a bunch of dead scribes wondering why the sun is hiding.

[TheGentlemanBastard]

You know, if I thought Steve actually gave a shit about the science he's abusing and misrepresenting, I'd recommend PBS Space Time over at youtube to him. But, since he's to stubborn to watch a recommended video, to committed to his bullshit, and too arrogant and proud in his ignorance to seek any better scientific understanding than what is spoon-fed to him by his local shaman, I won't bother.

[SteveII]

You know, if I thought Steve actually gave a shit about the science he's abusing and misrepresenting, I'd recommend PBS Space Time over at youtube to him. But, since he's to stubborn to watch a recommended video, to committed to his bullshit, and too arrogant and proud in his ignorance to seek any better scientific understanding than what is spoon-fed to him by his local shaman, I won't bother.

Thank you for your post promoting civil discussion of ideas.

[skyking]

Steve you come here with an answer, God. Then you try and wrap science around it and it doesn't fit. That's just not how science works. Try to open your mind, and look at it as if you'd never heard of God look at it from the scientific angle.
Without your foreknowledge, you can't get from science to God.

[Bucky Ball]

You know, if I thought Steve actually gave a shit about the science he's abusing and misrepresenting, I'd recommend PBS Space Time over at youtube to him. But, since he's to stubborn to watch a recommended video, to committed to his bullshit, and too arrogant and proud in his ignorance to seek any better scientific understanding than what is spoon-fed to him by his local shaman, I won't bother.

Thank you for your post promoting civil discussion of ideas.

Always the deflection. Not one word about space-time. 
Then he hides behind the "civil" shit, pretending this fake moral superiority. 
It's so obvious.

Stevie-2
This is the science thread. you have failed to make a case.

The case was made and proven by Einstein 100 years ago.
We get you don't even know what that means.

[Mark]

You know, if I thought Steve actually gave a shit about the science he's abusing and misrepresenting, I'd recommend PBS Space Time over at youtube to him. But, since he's to stubborn to watch a recommended video, to committed to his bullshit, and too arrogant and proud in his ignorance to seek any better scientific understanding than what is spoon-fed to him by his local shaman, I won't bother.

Thank you for your post promoting civil discussion of ideas.

I haven''t focused very much much on the discussion about what time is.  I remember you mentioned it as something that came up on another thread.  Would you mind boiling down your point, if you have one, for this thread?  Is it really about the nature of time or is it God related?  I wonder whether your objective is either to show what you think about God is compatible with science, or, to show that what we think about science and time is actually more compatible with believing in God than believing in no God.  If it is the former, no problem as far as I'm concerned.  But if it is the latter you're never going to convince someone who fails to see how there is any justification for belief in a creator that what we think about time obliges us to believe in a creator.

[SteveII]

Steve you come here with an answer, God. Then you try and wrap science around it and it doesn't fit. That's just not how science works. Try to open your mind, and look at it as if you'd never heard of God look at it from the scientific angle.
Without your foreknowledge, you can't get from science to God.

Seems to me that many of you operate on the assumption that I must be wrong on the science if I am pressing a science point to carry a premise in an argument that has religious significance. Take this thread for example. I haven't mentioned God once as a point. My relational view of time is not only valid, but mainstream. Yet, I got more posts questioning my intelligence, integrity and motives (including this post). On topic, most of what we have so far are some assertions that spacetime is an object with some videos that I am not sure people understand but are somehow confident that it will not support what I am saying...because you know...Christian.

If, as the videos say, we take the 3 dimensions of space and combine it with the 1 dimension of time, we have something called spacetime. From the PBS video, the definition is:

"Spacetime refers to whatever external reality underlies our collective experiences of the space between things and the time between events"

Look at that sentence. Spacetime is a referent for the reality of our experiences of two measurements.

Does considering them together actually combine them? No. We can still measure and discuss them separately. In fact, if you are examining a static state of affairs, you have no use for a time component and there would be no variable for time in your math. Spacetime is necessary model because time and space are linked because relative events (including causality) happening in space are THE fundamental concepts of the structure of our universe.

Another point from the PBS video: "Causality is responsible for time"..."Causality is what's REAL"..."and what does causality have to do with spacetime...as it turns out...everything." This supports my statement in the OP very well:

4. Therefore time is a measurement of duration and not an actual object that exists. To use metaphysical speak, time is explanatorily posterior to the occurrence of events. If there are no relationships of events to measure, there is no time.

The last quarter of the video assumes a B Theory of Time, which I don't hold to, but I think is irrelevant to my OP. If someone is interested (and can be generally civil--it's sad that I have to say that), I would be willing debate that point too.

[SteveII]

You know, if I thought Steve actually gave a shit about the science he's abusing and misrepresenting, I'd recommend PBS Space Time over at youtube to him. But, since he's to stubborn to watch a recommended video, to committed to his bullshit, and too arrogant and proud in his ignorance to seek any better scientific understanding than what is spoon-fed to him by his local shaman, I won't bother.

Thank you for your post promoting civil discussion of ideas.

I haven''t focused very much much on the discussion about what time is.  I remember you mentioned it as something that came up on another thread.  Would you mind boiling down your point, if you have one, for this thread?  Is it really about the nature of time or is it God related?  I wonder whether your objective is either to show what you think about God is compatible with science, or, to show that what we think about science and time is actually more compatible with believing in God than believing in no God.  If it is the former, no problem as far as I'm concerned.  But if it is the latter you're never going to convince someone who fails to see how there is any justification for belief in a creator that what we think about time obliges us to believe in a creator.

I did make some point just above.

The concept of time came up in another thread on the KCA. The reply was confused about God creating Time. This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what time is. Then it was repeated by someone else. So...this thread, in the Science section.

As always, I use posts and replies as a way to research topics and articulate points. My goal at the end of the day is to understand a topic more than I did before and by writing and responding, it does two things: 1) it sets it more firmly in my mind and 2) practicing critical thinking improves critical thinking in all manner of circumstances.

I believe that what we think about science and time is actually more compatible with believing in God than believing in no God--although not the point of this particular thread. I don't image I would convince anyone here of anything--except possibly that Christians often don't conform to the caricature they have in their minds. How many people wondering through here start with the assumption that a Christian is an irrational idiot science denier?

[Mark]

Steve you come here with an answer, God. Then you try and wrap science around it and it doesn't fit. That's just not how science works. Try to open your mind, and look at it as if you'd never heard of God look at it from the scientific angle.
Without your foreknowledge, you can't get from science to God.

Seems to me that many of you operate on the assumption that I must be wrong on the science if I am pressing a science point to carry a premise in an argument that has religious significance. Take this thread for example. I haven't mentioned God once as a point. My relational view of time is not only valid, but mainstream. Yet, I got more posts questioning my intelligence, integrity and motives (including this post). On topic, most of what we have so far are some assertions that spacetime is an object with some videos that I am not sure people understand but are somehow confident that it will not support what I am saying...because you know...Christian.

If, as the videos say, we take the 3 dimensions of space and combine it with the 1 dimension of time, we have something called spacetime. From the PBS video, the definition is:

"Spacetime refers to whatever external reality underlies our collective experiences of the space between things and the time between events"

Look at that sentence. Spacetime is a referent for the reality of our experiences of two measurements.

Does considering them together actually combine them? No. We can still measure and discuss them separately. In fact, if you are examining a static state of affairs, you have no use for a time component and there would be no variable for time in your math.  Spacetime is necessary model because time and space are linked because relative events (including causality) happening in space are THE fundamental concepts of the structure of our universe.

Another point from the PBS video: "Causality is responsible for time"..."Causality is what's REAL"..."and what does causality have to do with spacetime...as it turns out...everything." This supports my statement in the OP very well:

4. Therefore time is a measurement of duration and not an actual object that exists. To use metaphysical speak, time is explanatorily posterior to the occurrence of events. If there are no relationships of events to measure, there is no time.

The last quarter of the video assumes a B Theory of Time, which I don't hold to, but I think is irrelevant to my OP. If someone is interested (and can be generally civil--it's sad that I have to say that), I would be willing debate that point too.

If you're really interested in discussing science and want a tightly moderated board you might like to try Biologos, the website Francis Collins started.  Many working scientists post there and most of them are Christian.  However, most will tell you they don't think you can reason your way to faith and they won't be shy about pointing out fallacies.

[skyking]

i am always civil. if i cut through to the point, it's because i know where the topic is ultimately going.

I believe that what we think about science and time is actually more compatible with believing in God than believing in no God

until you assume no god, and then try to get there any other way without already bringing that belief to the subject.
we have collectively been here and done that, countless ways.
you won't give up your belief, not even for a moment. we won't settle for special pleadings.

[no one]

Mark:


You beat me to it.

[Thumpalumpacus]

[Thumpalumpacus]

[Thumpalumpacus]

If time is merely a model or concept, how can we compute velocity at all? Any such computation, if time is simply a figment of mind, should return a divide-by-zero error, because v=d/t. Yet Newtonian mechanics work. That strongly implies that time, while relative, is still actual.

[SteveII]

i am always civil. if i cut through to the point, it's because i know where the topic is ultimately going.

I believe that what we think about science and time is actually more compatible with believing in God than believing in no God

until you assume no god, and then try to get there any other way without already bringing that belief to the subject.
we have collectively been here and done that, countless ways.
you won't give up your belief, not even for a moment. we won't settle for special pleadings.

You're welcome to point out when I seem to be presenting a logical fallacy.

[skyking]

therefore god is a non sequitur.
you don't see it that way and won't try looking at
therefore anything else

[Bucky Ball]

The concept of time came up in another thread on the KCA. The reply was confused about God creating Time. This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what time is. Then it was repeated by someone else. So...this thread, in the Science section.

The post was confused about nothing ... and notice, he didn't and can't even say what was confused. Always the obfuscation.
It's totally hilarious, .... this ignoramus trying to say others are "confused" when he himself has demonstrated he has no clue about what time is.
In fact in the other thread HE HIMSELF kept making the SAME errors, repeatedly using temporal concepts and terms in what he claimed was a timeless environment.

[TheGentlemanBastard]

You know, if I thought Steve actually gave a shit about the science he's abusing and misrepresenting, I'd recommend PBS Space Time over at youtube to him. But, since he's to stubborn to watch a recommended video, to committed to his bullshit, and too arrogant and proud in his ignorance to seek any better scientific understanding than what is spoon-fed to him by his local shaman, I won't bother.

Thank you for your post promoting civil discussion of ideas.

So, are you willing to view the show? With an open mind? It'll teach you plenty about what you're getting wrong, and how and why you're getting it wrong. Or, are you comfortable wallowing in your ignorance of what actual scientists have to say?

[Bucky Ball]

Seems to me that many of you operate on the assumption that I must be wrong on the science if I am pressing a science point to carry a premise in an argument that has religious significance. Take this thread for example. I haven't mentioned God once as a point. My relational view of time is not only valid, but mainstream. 

If it's mainstream, then quote (as you were asked) from a Physics textbook, (any one), how "your" time bends light as it passes galaxies. 
LOL. Take your "time". (You view of time is shared by NO ONE). Einstein proved it wrong 100 years ago. 

I was going to answer, then thought better. I simply don't like you.

Sure you were. The dog ate my homework too.

[Mark]

Mark:


You beat me to it.

Great minds.

[Mark]

Good call.  Not really about this thread but because you're a guitar guy, what do you think of this version of Knophler's big hit?