Do stereotypes have any truth to them?

[Jamie Smithie]

Stereotypes are everywhere, those mental shortcuts we all use to make sense of the world around us. But are they ever actually accurate, or are they just lazy assumptions that end up doing more harm than good?

Some people say stereotypes come from a tiny bit of truth, like patterns you might see in certain groups. For example, the idea that some cultures put a big emphasis on family probably comes from something real. But even if that’s true, does it really justify lumping entire groups of people together based on one generalization?

Some say that stereotypes often miss the details, the context and individuality. They flatten people into one-dimensional caricatures. Even “positive” stereotypes, like saying Asians are good at math, can put unfair pressure on people. And the harmful ones? Some say they’ve been used to justify racism, sexism, and other kinds of oppression forever.

Here are some common views about some groups :

Black people are lazy and have a bad attitude
Gay men are flamboyant and childish
Lesbians are masculine
Jewish people are preoccupied with money and control
Immigrants don’t assimilate and feel entitled

So where do we draw the line? Are stereotypes ever helpful, or are they just a bad habit humanity can’t seem to break? Do they actually tell us anything about reality, or are they just reflections of our own biases? Curious to hear what you all think!

[Dexta]

Black people are lazy and have a bad attitude

Immigrants don’t assimilate and feel entitled

I've never heard of those "stereotypes."

[Dexta]

People who think black looking people are stereotypically lazy and have bad attitudes, are stereotypically racist arseholes? Does that work?

[Deesse23]

Copy Pasta from: https://atheistforums.org/thread-66288-p...pid2220766

[brewerb]

Copy Pasta from: https://atheistforums.org/thread-66288-p...pid2220766

Yeah, he's hitting both.

[Mathilda]

Please don't cross post across discussion forums

[Thumpalumpacus]

So where do we draw the line?

Easy: take individuals as individuals, without shoving them into a pigeonhole.

Are stereotypes ever helpful, or are they just a bad habit humanity can’t seem to break?

Most likely the latter, I think.

[pattylt]

Being active in a gay forum had me laughing my ass off at “gays are effimate”. But, even more so in the ability of gays to decorate. The first is disproven by how many “bears” are gay…men that are large, burly and often quite hairy. The second from how many times one gay would request someone to help them pick and choose home items because they had no clue what looked good or went together.

There are effeminate gays…there are also plenty that are normal or very masculine. It’s like saying all women are petite…I can disprove that! I’m built like a Viking shield maiden, large and muscular in my youth and was pretty damn strong…often more so than men my size.

Growing up in a mixed racial society, I often saw blacks having to work twice as hard as us privileged white folks. For Asians, I didn’t grow up amongst them and assumed they were always rather quiet and ploite, until I met many that were not!

Stereotypes are harmful much more often than helpful. Since I can think of many exceptions, I’m having a hard time coming up with any helpful stereotypes. Growing up Jewish, I know for a fact they aren’t all focused on money…other than to survive and knew plenty of poor Jews. I do know that, in general, Jews focus on education heavily but so do many non Jews. Stereotypes just fail way more often than succeed.

I’d love to think all atheists are rational and skeptical but that flys out the window on some discussion boards or meetups. It’s time to force it out of our vocabulary or relegate it to an unacceptable word to use for anyone.

[Jamie Smithie]

I think a lot of people nowadays misunderstand what a stereotype is. A stereotype is a ridiculous or exaggerated characterization. 


Examples : 

Jamaican = a guy wearing red, yellow and green, smoking a spliff, listening to Bob Marley and saying "Yeah maaaan!""

Spanish = a flamenco dancing bullfighter

French = riding a bike, wearing a striped top and beret with a thin moustache and garlic or onions around his neck and saying "haw haw haw!"

Black employee = arrives late, has a bad attitude, is rude, makes excuses, is lazy, leaves early, sucks his teeth when reprimanded

Porn star = will fuck anyone

Gay man = talks with a lithp, wears flowery shirts and may have an std

etc etc


A stereotype is not merely a generalization. Generalizations are necessary, and there are certainly patterns among different types of people. Although the stereotypes that I listed above are kind of ridiculous, we all know that to some extent there is truth to them. They come from somewhere.

Very few spanish people are flamenco dancing bullfighters, but those things are typically spanish and there are many people who appreciate both, and some of them do one or the other. I'm sure that the vast majority of flamenco dancing bullfighters (however few there may be) are in fact spanish. It's unlikely that there will be any nigerians among them. 

There are certainly jamaicans who do at least some of the things listed above. I've even seen a couple doing every single one of them. Most jamaicans don't, but there are some who do, certainly more than swedish people. 

The gay lisp, I've witnessed it many times, as well as the other things mentioned. I've even heard gays refer to the "gay accent". They know it's a thing, we all know it's a thing, and it's childish to deny it. 

Pretty much all of what I listed above are things that I've noticed among some people more than others, and patterns do exist. 

It makes me laugh when someone says "you shouldn't generalize". Of course you should generalize. 

Picture a cat. Now picture a car. Now picture a couple arguing and clothes being thrown out the window. 

How many legs did the cat have? How many wheels did the car have? Who's throwing the clothes out the window, the man or the woman? 

Exactly. 

I rest my case, and I hereby declare myself a genius.

[Dexta]

This newbie is screaming "homophobic racist" at my spider senses, I'm done with it.

[Dānu]

Before you ask if there is any truth in stereotypes, you need to decide what you mean by truth. Depending, your answer may be a lot or very little to none.

What do you mean by truth here? What in your eyes would it take for there to be some truth in stereotypes?

[Jamie Smithie]

This newbie is screaming "homophobic racist" at my spider senses, I'm done with it.

I'm not screaming. I'm just typing. What the hell's wrong with you, relax man.

[Antonio]

I think a lot of people nowadays misunderstand what a stereotype is. A stereotype is a ridiculous or exaggerated characterization. 


Examples : 

Jamaican = a guy wearing red, yellow and green, smoking a spliff, listening to Bob Marley and saying "Yeah maaaan!""

Spanish = a flamenco dancing bullfighter

French = riding a bike, wearing a striped top and beret with a thin moustache and garlic or onions around his neck and saying "haw haw haw!"

Black employee = arrives late, has a bad attitude, is rude, makes excuses, is lazy, leaves early, sucks his teeth when reprimanded

Porn star = will fuck anyone

Gay man = talks with a lithp, wears flowery shirts and may have an std

etc etc


A stereotype is not merely a generalization. Generalizations are necessary, and there are certainly patterns among different types of people. Although the stereotypes that I listed above are kind of ridiculous, we all know that to some extent there is truth to them. They come from somewhere.

Very few spanish people are flamenco dancing bullfighters, but those things are typically spanish and there are many people who appreciate both, and some of them do one or the other. I'm sure that the vast majority of flamenco dancing bullfighters (however few there may be) are in fact spanish. It's unlikely that there will be any nigerians among them. 

There are certainly jamaicans who do at least some of the things listed above. I've even seen a couple doing every single one of them. Most jamaicans don't, but there are some who do, certainly more than swedish people. 

The gay lisp, I've witnessed it many times, as well as the other things mentioned. I've even heard gays refer to the "gay accent". They know it's a thing, we all know it's a thing, and it's childish to deny it. 

Pretty much all of what I listed above are things that I've noticed among some people more than others, and patterns do exist. 

It makes me laugh when someone says "you shouldn't generalize". Of course you should generalize. 

Picture a cat. Now picture a car. Now picture a couple arguing and clothes being thrown out the window. 

How many legs did the cat have? How many wheels did the car have? Who's throwing the clothes out the window, the man or the woman? 

Exactly. 

I rest my case, and I hereby declare myself a genius.

My generalization ,humans are dumb fucks

[brewerb]

I am one of the stereotypes so................... no comment.

[Thumpalumpacus]

It makes me laugh when someone says "you shouldn't generalize". Of course you should generalize. 

The real issue is ought you particularize your generalities to individuals. Do you assume every Jamaican is a stoner, or every Spaniard a bullfighting aficionado, or every American redneck a racist, or every Californian a raging libtard?

What is it about stereotypes that makes your interactions with others easier -- or maybe, if you haven't considered it, harder?

Maybe you should tell us where you're from and what race and class you are, so we might apply your own logic to you and let's see how you feel about it.

I'm a white male from Texas. I lived in California for twenty+ years. When folks found out I was from Texas, the racial slurs started coming out of the woodwork. Maybe they thought they were speaking "my language"; or maybe they thought that they finally had found a receptive audience. The assumption that I was racist or at least receptive to that language was obvious.

But in one sense they were, by doing that, stereotyping me. I never forgot that.

[Jamie Smithie]

It makes me laugh when someone says "you shouldn't generalize". Of course you should generalize. 

The real issue is ought you particularize your generalities to individuals. Do you assume every Jamaican is a stoner, or every Spaniard a bullfighting aficionado, or every American redneck a racist, or every Californian a raging libtard?

What is it about stereotypes that makes your interactions with others easier -- or maybe, if you haven't considered it, harder?

Maybe you should tell us where you're from and what race and class you are, so we might apply your own logic to you and let's see how you feel about it.

I'm a white male from Texas. I lived in California for twenty+ years. When folks found out I was from Texas, the racial slurs started coming out of the woodwork. Maybe they thought they were speaking "my language"; or maybe they thought that they finally had found a receptive audience. The assumption that I was racist or at least receptive to that language was obvious.

But in one sense they were, by doing that, stereotyping me. I never forgot that.

There's nothing wrong with making assumptions, just as long as you're willing to change your mind if evidence proves the assumption wrong for the individual that you're dealing with. But in the absence of such evidence, one should be cautious, not naive. 

For example, I own a cafe and a black guy once came in looking for a job. I have a negative automatic assumption that black people are not the most reliable employees, and at first I had no intention of employing him. But when I saw his work history and references I decided to give him the job and he still works for me and he's one of my best guys. 

By contrast, I had another black guy speak to me about renting an apartment. Again, at first I had no intention but this time I was glad I went with my instincts because of how he came across. I could smell weed on him, his body language was very ghetto, and his overall manner made a bad impression. 

The second guy lived up to the "stereotype". The first guy did not. The first guy probably was aware of the so called stereotype (more like accurate observation and pattern recognition) and made a point of portraying himself in a more positive way, and good for him. 

Black men should keep their hair short and neat, dress like a man not a teenager, speak white, and smile more. Those were his own words.

[brewerb]

^^^ wow, no way. Black people use stereotypes when referring to other black people?

Damn glad white people don't have that problem. The hillbilly/hick neighbors might be amazed when I tell them but it's more likely they'll look at me like I'm speaking a foreign language.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Yup, concern troll.

[Dānu]

Are you acknowledging that your first inclination is to discriminate against black people without knowing anything else about them?

[Jamie Smithie]

Are you acknowledging that your first inclination is to discriminate against black people without knowing anything else about them?

Not quite, no. 

In one sense I prejudge, but in another sense I postjudge. I judge pre knowing the individual, but my judgment is post noticing patterns among the group. 

For example, would you be surprised if a chinese person told you that they were homeless? Probably, because chinese people tend to work hard at school and do well, and they tend to stick together and help each other, resulting n them either doing highly paid jobs or having successful businesses. You already had that idea in your mind based on previous observation. You prejudged the individual as being unlikely to be homeless, because of your post judgment about that demographic, i.e. you noticed that they tend not to end up homeless. 

So if a black person wants to rent an apartment from me I will by default refuse. Not because I know the person (they might be the nicest person in the world), but because of the problems that I've had in the past. Now, if I were psychic, I'd be in the privileged position of being able to make accurate judgments. But since I'm not, I have to go by patterns and past results, as compared to other groups. 

It's a shame but it has to be that way. The finger of blame should be firmly pointed at the countless black people who have created that so called stereotype. I feel bad for any decent blacks that I've turned down for employment or accommodation. But I have a livelihood to maintain and since I live in a predominantly white country I can afford to be as picky as I need to be.

Is it discrimination? Yes. I discriminate based on gut feeling, past patterns and results. I'd be very unwise not to. If I told you how far I take it you'd probably be shocked but that's how it has to be.

[Dānu]

I wouldn't prejudge a Chinese person as such. Nor would I be likely to do so on those grounds. I would take into account the base rate of homelessness, which is low. This is an example of a valid use of a statistical generalization being used to form base assumptions, as opposed to simply indulging one's prejudice to malign someone based on gross characteristics.

Regardless, as Thump correctly points out. The issue is not so much the existence of stereotypes but how one uses stereotypes in their decision making. Any statistical generalization, whether valid or not, is only correctly applied to the group as a whole. When used to draw inferences about individuals, it is not a valid nor reliable method of forming conclusions. When used to assess individuals, it is mere bigotry. Your prior experience itself is not justification as there are many possible reasons you have noticed such a pattern having little to do with the assumptions you draw from your stereotype. I rather suspect that you didn't notice the color of shoes worn by the applicants that you've dealt with. If you noticed that people who regularly wear brown shoes are poorer tenants, would you include shoe color as a criterion for successful applicants? In all likelihood, the reason you noticed such patterns was a result of a pre-existing bias rather than the cause of said bias.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Hey, @Jamie Smithie, would you PM me a link to your blog, please?

[Jamie Smithie]

I wouldn't prejudge a Chinese person as such.  Nor would I be likely to do so on those grounds.  I would take into account the base rate of homelessness, which is low.  This is an example of a valid use of a statistical generalization being used to form base assumptions, as opposed to simply indulging one's prejudice to malign someone based on gross characteristics.

Regardless, as Thump correctly points out.  The issue is not so much the existence of stereotypes but how one uses stereotypes in their decision making.  Any statistical generalization, whether valid or not, is only correctly applied to the group as a whole.  When used to draw inferences about individuals, it is not a valid nor reliable method of forming conclusions.  When used to assess individuals, it is mere bigotry.  Your prior experience itself is not justification as there are many possible reasons you have noticed such a pattern having little to do with the assumptions you draw from your stereotype.  I rather suspect that you didn't notice the color of shoes worn by the applicants that you've dealt with.  If you noticed that people who regularly wear brown shoes are poorer tenants, would you include shoe color as a criterion for successful applicants?  In all likelihood, the reason you noticed such patterns was a result of a pre-existing bias rather than the cause of said bias.

This kind of naive bullshit thinking is how idiots get themselves into trouble. If you acknowledge that "stereotypes" (truths about people based on patterns) exist, then you should take them into account when making decisions. 

I don't accept resumes from people called Shaniqua. Why? Simple. It's because Shaniqua is a stupid ghetto name, indicating that the person has stupid ignorant ghetto parents and live a ghetto lifestyle, as does their daughter. I may not know Shaniqua personally and she may be the loveliest girl in the world and a great worker, but with a name like that I reserve the right to prejudge her based on my postjudgment about people with such a name. 

That's how the world works. If you try to a good little politically correct dweeb, sooner or later you'll get stung. Fuck that.

[AutisticWill]

I wouldn't prejudge a Chinese person as such.  Nor would I be likely to do so on those grounds.  I would take into account the base rate of homelessness, which is low.  This is an example of a valid use of a statistical generalization being used to form base assumptions, as opposed to simply indulging one's prejudice to malign someone based on gross characteristics.

Regardless, as Thump correctly points out.  The issue is not so much the existence of stereotypes but how one uses stereotypes in their decision making.  Any statistical generalization, whether valid or not, is only correctly applied to the group as a whole.  When used to draw inferences about individuals, it is not a valid nor reliable method of forming conclusions.  When used to assess individuals, it is mere bigotry.  Your prior experience itself is not justification as there are many possible reasons you have noticed such a pattern having little to do with the assumptions you draw from your stereotype.  I rather suspect that you didn't notice the color of shoes worn by the applicants that you've dealt with.  If you noticed that people who regularly wear brown shoes are poorer tenants, would you include shoe color as a criterion for successful applicants?  In all likelihood, the reason you noticed such patterns was a result of a pre-existing bias rather than the cause of said bias.

This kind of naive bullshit thinking is how idiots get themselves into trouble. If you acknowledge that "stereotypes" (truths about people based on patterns) exist, then you should take them into account when making decisions. 

I don't accept resumes from people called Shaniqua. Why? Simple. It's because Shaniqua is a stupid ghetto name, indicating that the person has stupid ignorant ghetto parents and live a ghetto lifestyle, as does their daughter. I may not know Shaniqua personally and she may be the loveliest girl in the world and a great worker, but with a name like that I reserve the right to prejudge her based on my postjudgment about people with such a name. 

That's how the world works. If you try to a good little politically correct dweeb, sooner or later you'll get stung. Fuck that.

The 'Shaniquas' of the world can never get ahead, via hard work and diligence, becouse of bigoted shits like you. No matter how hard she works, no matter her personality, she will always be turned down for a higher position or a middle class job, by people like you. Thus she is stuck in the ghetto, poor, unable to afford good education for her children, and the cycle continues.

Fuck you.

[Jamie Smithie]

This kind of naive bullshit thinking is how idiots get themselves into trouble. If you acknowledge that "stereotypes" (truths about people based on patterns) exist, then you should take them into account when making decisions. 

I don't accept resumes from people called Shaniqua. Why? Simple. It's because Shaniqua is a stupid ghetto name, indicating that the person has stupid ignorant ghetto parents and live a ghetto lifestyle, as does their daughter. I may not know Shaniqua personally and she may be the loveliest girl in the world and a great worker, but with a name like that I reserve the right to prejudge her based on my postjudgment about people with such a name. 

That's how the world works. If you try to a good little politically correct dweeb, sooner or later you'll get stung. Fuck that.

The 'Shaniquas' of the world can never get ahead, via hard work and diligence, becouse of bigoted shits like you. No matter how hard she works, no matter her personality, she will always be turned down for a higher position or a middle class job, by people like you. Thus she is stuck in the ghetto, poor, unable to afford good education for her children, and the cycle continues.

Fuck you.

That's exactly right. It's unfortunate. The moral of the story is : don't call your kids stupid names that give a bad impression. Poor Shaniqua, assuming she's a good worker, will struggle, unless of course she changes her name. I still won't hire her, but I'm sure others will. Let's wish her all the best.