Lithium-Ion batteries Causing More Than 10,000 Fires a Year in Australia.

[SYZ]

Firstly, I don't believe this claim at all, as it would mean around
30 fires caused every day due solely to Li-ion cells.

That dubious claim is reported in THIS ABC News article, 20 June.

A report from Pragmatic Research, funded by waste and
recycling bodies, estimated there are between 10,000 and
12,000 battery-related fires in the sector per year.

Okay... I've never heard of this one-man outfit called
Pragmatic Research, nor the person running it.  I also
couldn't find any site search option to check on the data
and methodology of this alleged Li-ion fires research.

(Anybody here know anything about Pragmatic?)

Waste Management and Resource Recovery Association
chief executive Gayle Sloan, representing more than 400
businesses, said the stakes are high.  She says if we don't
act on this, we're going to continue to see facilities and trucks
burn, we're going to end up potentially with genuine injuries
or significant injuries on our workers, and, dare I say, a death.

I'd agree with the thrust of this, as there're numerous reports
of Li-ion cell fires from all across the planet.  But, up to 12K
here in Australia annually?   I don't think so LOL.

Another report on the fire hazards of Li-ion cells says; "Lithium-ion
batteries cause fires every day in Australia, with state and territory
fire services indicating that more than 1,000 fires have been
caused by the batteries over the past year.
                 https://eliteagent.com/lithium-ion-batte...ouseholds/

This statistic is far more believable at around a couple a day.

The current(!) failure rate of Li-ion cells is around one in 10 million.
And of course that doesn't mean that every failure cause a fire.

I've been using Li-ion cells for probably twenty years now, and we've
got maybe 200 in use at the moment.  It's critical that one buys only
brand-name cells from reputable manufacturers such as Panasonic,
LG, or Samsung.  

   DO NOT PURCHASE UNBRANDED, CHEAP, OR KNOCKOFF CELLS!

It's extremely difficult to ascertain the difference between the knockoffs
and the genuine cells—other than checking their voltage, current drop
over time, and internal resistance (25-30 mohm average).

This is a typical (LG) knockoff, at AU$1.62 per unit made in China:



This is a genuine Panasonic, at AU$19.34 per unit made in Japan:


      Fun fact...  The Tesla Model S has 7,104 of these cells in its battery.   

[pattylt]

I’ve never heard of them but likely wouldn’t if they’re Australia based. My suspicion is they are an organization dedicated to anti electric cars or have some other issue with batteries or tech in general. A better argument would be disposing of lithium containing cells or the sourcing of lithium to make the cells but it sounds like they are arguing about the fire danger only? I mean, matches and lighters cause fires, too. So do bad cooks and incompetent BBQ operators. Even gender reveals have has some nasty fires.

[Paleophyte]

Sounds like a crock of shit. First they say:

there are between 10,000 and 12,000 battery-related fires in the sector per year.

Then they say:

She says if we don't act on this, we're going to continue to see facilities and trucks burn, we're going to end up potentially with genuine injuries or significant injuries on our workers, and, dare I say, a death.

So 10,000 to 12,000 fires per year that burn trucks and entire facilities but not one reported injury or death. The Devil's own luck!

Sounds like problems with the recycling process, which are typically low margin so they're run cheap and dirty. Try that with something that stores as much energy as a lithium ino battery and yes, you'll get trouble.

[mordant]

I’ve never heard of them but likely wouldn’t if they’re Australia based.  My suspicion is they are an organization dedicated to anti electric cars or have some other issue with batteries or tech in general. A better argument would be disposing of lithium containing cells or the sourcing of lithium to make the cells but it sounds like they are arguing about the fire danger only?  I mean, matches and lighters cause fires, too.  So do bad cooks and incompetent BBQ operators.  Even gender reveals have has some nasty fires.

I rarely intervene in my wife's household purchases but she bought a decent stock of "Amazon Essentials" AAA and AA batteries -- not Lithium Ion but just regular alkaline disposables -- they were manufactured in Singapore IIRC and there were a number of news reports of them spontaneously combusting before they are even put to use. IDK how much I believe it but they are cheap and they are Amazon so I said, stick to name brands from now on. We don't use that many anyway.

As for exploding EVs -- yes it happens, for the same reason that a gasoline powered car explodes when hit in a certain way that punctures the gas tank. Mile for mile of range, gasoline and batteries store the same amount of energy (they would have to). Batteries are a little harder to fatally rupture than a gas tank, but once they short out and catch fire, they burn just as well as gasoline -- just more like a cache of fireworks going off, more like a sustained meltdown than an all-at-once explosion but it will release just as much energy and destroy the car just as effectively -- just a bit more slowly at first, on average. Especially since battery cells are structurally part of the chassis, usually.

One of the things preventing solid state batteries from being adopted in EVs despite them being more energy dense, faster charging and providing greater range, is that they are more fragile. They work better currently in small, stationary devices than being jostled around over potholes for hundreds of thousands of miles. Hybrid designs are being introduced by Chinese manufacturers (with extensive state subsidies for R&D acceleration) that are said to lack that problem and have > 600 mile range and charge from empty to full in < 30 minutes though. Hitting the market this year -- over there anyway.

[Cavebear]

I use rechargeable batteries almost exclusively these days. Much cheaper in the long-term. But they do wear out or just plain go bad sooner than expected. So when I have a bad rechargeable, I cover the terminals with tape before dumping them in DIY store recycle bin.

But I doubt most people do. And there are barely a few reports of fires caused by that. So reports of 10,000 fires seems like a bad internet rumor caused by idiots looking for something to write about to collect a few eyeballs.

Something like that would be headline news on most major newspapers and I haven't seen that there. So I don't consider the problem to be real.

[SYZ]

Very good idea with the tape over the terminals.    

Battery & Steel Wool Fire

[Cavebear]

Very good idea with the tape over the terminals.    

Battery & Steel Wool Fire

I once started a fire with a loose bow and a dowel, but it took about 15 minutes with sawdust and wood-shavings. I did flint&steel as a Boy Scout. I have some "Fatwood" that can be lit with a match.

But I sure never tried to light steel wool! Impressive...

[Minimalist]

As for exploding EVs -- yes it happens,

Funny story on that point, Mord.  A few months ago I bought a brand new Kia Sportage.  The salesman was pushing a hybrid model and it was nice with all sorts of bells and whistles but its big selling point was fuel economy because of the battery.  He took great pride in explaining to me where the battery was and how it would never be in my way!  It was only slightly more expensive than the one I got but in truth I don't drive all that much.  I've had it for 4 months and I still don't have 2K miles on it.  I elected to go with the standard model.   Arrangements were made to go back the next day and do the switch.

That night on the news the lead story was of a fire in a house about a mile away from me - at least that told me what the sirens were that my dog was howling at - and it was caused by a hybrid vehicle suddenly igniting in a guy's garage.  The garage was a total loss and the house was heavily damaged.  Worse, the Fire Chief was out there talking about how rotten those fires were to fight because a) it's hard to get at the batteries and b) such fires are hard to put out.

I told the guy about it the next morning.  He laughed and said "I guess you made the right choice."

[Cavebear]

As for exploding EVs -- yes it happens,

Funny story on that point, Mord.  A few months ago I bought a brand new Kia Sportage.  The salesman was pushing a hybrid model and it was nice with all sorts of bells and whistles but its big selling point was fuel economy because of the battery.  He took great pride in explaining to me where the battery was and how it would never be in my way!  It was only slightly more expensive than the one I got but in truth I don't drive all that much.  I've had it for 4 months and I still don't have 2K miles on it.  I elected to go with the standard model.   Arrangements were made to go back the next day and do the switch.

That night on the news the lead story was of a fire in a house about a mile away from me - at least that told me what the sirens were that my dog was howling at - and it was caused by a hybrid vehicle suddenly igniting in a guy's garage.  The garage was a total loss and the house was heavily damaged.  Worse, the Fire Chief was out there talking about how rotten those fires were to fight because a) it's hard to get at the batteries and b) such fires are hard to put out.

I told the guy about it the next morning.  He laughed and said "I guess you made the right choice."

May I ask how many documented cases there are about that happening? I am curious because I hope my next car will probably be electric.

[SYZ]

Typically, EV batteries have an average mass of 454kg (1,000 pounds),
but for some models it's as much as 900kg (2,000 pounds).

Whatever, this is like driving everywhere with an extra  three or four
passengers in your car.  Which of course means you're wasting extra
energy doing that.  A full tank of petrol might have a mass of, say,
75 - 95kg in comparison.

Many critics of EVs claim that most city-based motorists would be better
off, environmentally, driving a small 4-cylinder IC vehicle, say 1L to 1.5L.

[SYZ]

May I ask how many documented cases there are about that happening?  I am curious because I hope my next car will probably be electric.

From 2010 to June 2023, EV FireSafe recorded 393 verified passenger
EV battery fires across the world, of which only four were in Australia.

[Alan V]

This is quoted from a CNN article:

Although some battery chemistries are safer than others, we are still a few years away from adoption of a better, safer lithium-ion alternative, according to Sridhar Srinivasan, a senior director at market research firm Gartner.

For example, LFP (lithium iron phosphate) batteries don’t overheat as much as other types of lithium-ion batteries. Future battery technologies in development, such as sodium-ion or solid state batteries, are also expected to address some of the safety issues of lithium ion.

[Minimalist]

Timing is everything in life!

https://www.rawstory.com/18-chinese-amon...lant-fire/

18 Chinese among 22 dead in South Korea battery plant fire

Twenty-two people were killed in a massive fire at a South Korean lithium battery plant on Monday, most of them Chinese nationals, in one of the country's worst factory disasters in years.


Over 100 people were working in the factory when workers heard a series of explosions from the second floor, where lithium-ion batteries were being inspected and packaged, firefighter Kim Jin-young told media.

The vast factory had an estimated 35,000 battery cells on the second floor in storage, with more batteries stored in other areas, the fire department said. The bodies were found in that area.

Lithium batteries burn hot and fast, and are difficult to control with conventional fire extinguishing methods.
"Due to fears of additional explosions, it was difficult to enter," the building initially, the fire department's Kim said, describing the tricky rescue operation.

[Paleophyte]

Typically, EV batteries have an average mass of 454kg (1,000 pounds),
but for some models it's as much as 900kg (2,000 pounds).

Whatever, this is like driving everywhere with an extra  three or four
passengers in your car.  Which of course means you're wasting extra
energy doing that.  A full tank of petrol might have a mass of, say,
75 - 95kg in comparison.

Many critics of EVs claim that most city-based motorists would be better
off, environmentally, driving a small 4-cylinder IC vehicle, say 1L to 1.5L.

If anybody drove small vehicles and if all electricity was created equal that might be a valid argument. Here in Canada less than 20% of our electricity is generated by fossils, so even an inefficient electric system produces less GHG than an IC. By contrast, in Australia, your EV is essentially burning coal.

[SYZ]

Rising production costs continue to act as a roadblock to price
parity between petrol and electric vehicles—and now one car
giant has put a figure on the gap.

Carlos Tavares, the worldwide head of the giant Stellantis car
group that includes Jeep, RAM, Alfa Romeo, Chrysler, Citroen,
Opel and Peugeot, says technology "is 40% more expensive"
in electric vehicles.  He said said manufacturers must find a way
to absorb the extra costs to make electric cars more affordable.

Currently, the cheapest EV in Australia is the 2023 GWM (Great
Wall Motors) Ora Extended Range at $39,800.

There are six other cheaper IC cars for less than $25,000 available
in Australia, starting from the MG 3 at $18,990.



On my limited financial budget, why would I even contemplate paying
an extra $15K to $20K simply to "go green"?  What's in it for me?

I want a return on my investment—rather than paying a subsidy to
support newly-developing vehicle technology, so I'll be happily sticking
with petrol in the foreseeable future.

[Alan V]

On my limited financial budget, why would I even contemplate paying
an extra $15K to $20K simply to "go green"?  What's in it for me?

You need to figure the cost of electricity versus gas over the lifetime of the vehicle into your equation.  Then you might find an EV more affordable.

[pattylt]

On my limited financial budget, why would I even contemplate paying
an extra $15K to $20K simply to "go green"?  What's in it for me?

You need to figure the cost of electricity versus gas over the lifetime of the vehicle into your equation.  Then you might find an EV more affordable.

Also, be sure to factor in the battery’s replacement cost.  It’s a great deal more than the typical car battery.
Resale value should also be considered…lots to think about and it’s often like comparing apples to oranges.

[Alan V]

You need to figure the cost of electricity versus gas over the lifetime of the vehicle into your equation.  Then you might find an EV more affordable.

Also, be sure to factor in the battery’s replacement cost.  It’s a great deal more than the typical car battery.
Resale value should also be considered…lots to think about and it’s often like comparing apples to oranges.

Also maintenance costs would be lower for EVs.  Altogether, it isn't an easy equation.  Perhaps there are some online sources of information for someone considering switching to an EV.

[SYZ]

A state-owned group which runs a number of Melbourne
medical facilities has banned its staff from charging their
electric vehicles in hospital car parks, citing fire risks.

Monash Health—which operates 11 hospitals and medical
centres in Melbourne—announced the new rules in an online
safety alert to staff, telling them they can no longer charge
electric cars and battery-powered mobility devices within
sites run by the group.

"Monash Health employees must immediately stop charging
their personal Light Electric Vehicles (LEVs) and Electric Vehicles
(EVs) within the confines of Monash Health sites, including
all car parking areas" the safety ruling said.

[Paleophyte]

On my limited financial budget, why would I even contemplate paying
an extra $15K to $20K simply to "go green"?  What's in it for me?

I'll throw in a factory optional not having your country burnt to the ground by wildfires, melted into a puddle by heat waves, or washed away by flash floods.

What's in it for you? Continued existence.

[SYZ]

Two caravans were destroyed by fire at a Bundaberg, QLD
caravan dealership today after a lithium-ion battery caught
fire near mattress.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-07-04/l.../104057396

It was obvious from the video that the blokes running the
show had no idea—from observing the nature of the flames
and their speed of propagation—that it was a Li-ion sourced
fire.  That, plus a bit of common sense.

   Hand-held fire extinguishers?  LOL.

   "Got a hose?"  LOL.

[Minimalist]

This story was on the local news a couple of days ago.

https://www.azfamily.com/video/2024/07/0...t-outside/