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The Intrinsic Honesty of Atheism
#1

The Intrinsic Honesty of Atheism
I think most of us who reached atheism from an earlier mindset of belief did so because we kept finding aspects of belief that conflicted with not just our experience of reality, but also our advancing knowledge that accompanies our accumulating experience.  Becoming atheist in essence was choosing to stay intellectually honest.  Becoming atheist ends having to rationalize or excuse or ignore the absurdities that theism unavoidably raises.  Atheists don't struggle to find sensible answers, unlike the theist posters herein who find it necessary to write thousands of words of convoluted sophistry to avoid answering (for them) difficult questions.

Does this mean that theism is therefore intrinsically dishonest?  Beyond a certain level of knowledge, I think so.  A child believing in a god hasn't attained enough experience or knowledge to know better.  But by adulthood, somewhere along that journey we all take (if we're paying attention - not everyone does), honesty starts having to be set aside in order to sustain belief.
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#2

The Intrinsic Honesty of Atheism
I answered in another thread "Why Atheism" thus: "Because truth is the central pillar of justice and righteousness." Seems on topic AK
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#3

The Intrinsic Honesty of Atheism
(04-21-2024, 06:45 PM)airportkid Wrote: I think most of us who reached atheism from an earlier mindset of belief did so because we kept finding aspects of belief that conflicted with not just our experience of reality, but also our advancing knowledge that accompanies our accumulating experience.  Becoming atheist in essence was choosing to stay intellectually honest.  Becoming atheist ends having to rationalize or excuse or ignore the absurdities that theism unavoidably raises.  Atheists don't struggle to find sensible answers, unlike the theist posters herein who find it necessary to write thousands of words of convoluted sophistry to avoid answering (for them) difficult questions.

Does this mean that theism is therefore intrinsically dishonest?  Beyond a certain level of knowledge, I think so.  A child believing in a god hasn't attained enough experience or knowledge to know better.  But by adulthood, somewhere along that journey we all take (if we're paying attention - not everyone does), honesty starts having to be set aside in order to sustain belief.

Interesting, I've noticed when science conflicts with your atheist beliefs, you tend to reject it out of hand, it's quite amazing to watch atheist's scramble and attempt to discredit peer reviewed research when it conflicts with atheist belief.

(12-10-2023, 12:59 PM)airportkid Wrote:
(12-10-2023, 11:39 AM)Huggy Bear Wrote: ... peer reviewed research, articles from professors of medical schools, and the experiences of highly regarded surgeons ...

None of it is credible...

*emphasis mine*
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#4

The Intrinsic Honesty of Atheism
(04-21-2024, 08:29 PM)Huggy Bear Wrote:
(04-21-2024, 06:45 PM)airportkid Wrote: I think most of us who reached atheism from an earlier mindset of belief did so because we kept finding aspects of belief that conflicted with not just our experience of reality, but also our advancing knowledge that accompanies our accumulating experience.  Becoming atheist in essence was choosing to stay intellectually honest.  Becoming atheist ends having to rationalize or excuse or ignore the absurdities that theism unavoidably raises.  Atheists don't struggle to find sensible answers, unlike the theist posters herein who find it necessary to write thousands of words of convoluted sophistry to avoid answering (for them) difficult questions.

Does this mean that theism is therefore intrinsically dishonest?  Beyond a certain level of knowledge, I think so.  A child believing in a god hasn't attained enough experience or knowledge to know better.  But by adulthood, somewhere along that journey we all take (if we're paying attention - not everyone does), honesty starts having to be set aside in order to sustain belief.

Interesting, I've noticed when science conflicts with your atheist beliefs, you tend to reject it out of hand, it's quite amazing to watch atheist's scramble and attempt to discredit peer reviewed research when it conflicts with atheist belief.

(12-10-2023, 12:59 PM)airportkid Wrote: None of it is credible...

*emphasis mine*

Bold mine

What are “atheist beliefs”?
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#5

The Intrinsic Honesty of Atheism
Quote:Interesting, I've noticed when science conflicts with your atheist beliefs, you tend to reject it out of hand, it's quite amazing to watch atheist's scramble and attempt to discredit peer reviewed research when it conflicts with atheist belief.

Your "peers" tend to be jesus freaks first and foremost.  Tell me, when has science ever said that some "god" was responsible for anything tangible?

I'd like a few examples.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#6

The Intrinsic Honesty of Atheism
OP: I'd limit an atheists honesty to belief/non belief in gods. In other aspects I know plenty of dishonest atheists. Under certain circumstances I can be dishonest.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#7

The Intrinsic Honesty of Atheism
While I would not quite classify theism as dishonest, dishonesty reeks of the willful intent to defraud, dupe, deceive, and even victimize those that place their trust in  you.
Now, even though theism is far from factual, or even being remotely accurate, in its purest tenets it attempts to explain the unexplainable, however the simple creatures that assumed and fabricated these elaborate explanations, were sorely lacking in even the most basic fundamentals of how the planet worked. Therefore, leading to fantastically preposterous tales of magic and wonder. Over time these tales became distorted, and grossly exaggerated. Basically, it's the worst game of telephone, ever.

Now, what is dishonest, are the brigades of charlatans and con artists that pursue a career in exploiting and swindling. Those morally bankrupt scoundrels, those that would use the horrors of dread and dismay to instill terror, and panic that only they can alleviate. (for a price)

As you you huggy, have you ever opened your yap trap, and the stupid hasn't fallen out?
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#8

The Intrinsic Honesty of Atheism
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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#9

The Intrinsic Honesty of Atheism
(04-21-2024, 08:36 PM)1Sam15 Wrote:
(04-21-2024, 08:29 PM)Huggy Bear Wrote: Interesting, I've noticed when science conflicts with your atheist beliefs, you tend to reject it out of hand, it's quite amazing to watch atheist's scramble and attempt to discredit peer reviewed research when it conflicts with atheist belief.


*emphasis mine*

Bold mine

What are “atheist beliefs”?

Let's not play games, y'all make claims all the time with zero evidence, you're in the same boat with the thiests.

(03-29-2024, 12:10 PM)Alan V Wrote: Without a brain, there is no consciousness.  Therefore an immaterial God with consciousness cannot exist.
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#10

The Intrinsic Honesty of Atheism
(04-22-2024, 01:43 AM)Huggy Bear Wrote:
(04-21-2024, 08:36 PM)1Sam15 Wrote: Bold mine

What are “atheist beliefs”?

Let's not play games, y'all make claims all the time with zero evidence, you're in the same boat with the thiests.

(03-29-2024, 12:10 PM)Alan V Wrote: Without a brain, there is no consciousness.  Therefore an immaterial God with consciousness cannot exist.

You're conscious, but apparently brainless, so you might have a point. You'll still need to show me your godling exists.
On hiatus.
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#11

The Intrinsic Honesty of Atheism
(04-22-2024, 01:43 AM)Huggy Bear Wrote:
(04-21-2024, 08:36 PM)1Sam15 Wrote: Bold mine

What are “atheist beliefs”?

Let's not play games, y'all make claims all the time with zero evidence, you're in the same boat with the thiests.

[Image: shooting-yourself-in-the-foot-cartoon.jp...6W_1ZKaDE=]
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#12

The Intrinsic Honesty of Atheism
(04-22-2024, 01:43 AM)Huggy Bear Wrote:
(04-21-2024, 08:36 PM)1Sam15 Wrote: Bold mine

What are “atheist beliefs”?

Let's not play games, y'all make claims all the time with zero evidence, you're in the same boat with the thiests.

(03-29-2024, 12:10 PM)Alan V Wrote: Without a brain, there is no consciousness.  Therefore an immaterial God with consciousness cannot exist.

What is the “atheist belief” you coward?
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#13

The Intrinsic Honesty of Atheism
(04-21-2024, 09:20 PM)brewerb Wrote: I'd limit an atheists honesty to belief/non belief in gods.

That should be implicit; my OP said atheism is honest, not atheistsBut if the nuances of language require spelling that out anyway, OK.
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#14

The Intrinsic Honesty of Atheism
(04-22-2024, 01:43 AM)Huggy Bear Wrote:
(04-21-2024, 08:36 PM)1Sam15 Wrote: What are “atheist beliefs”?

Let's not play games, y'all make claims all the time with zero evidence, you're in the same boat with the thiests.

(03-29-2024, 12:10 PM)Alan V Wrote: Without a brain, there is no consciousness.  Therefore an immaterial God with consciousness cannot exist.

Here is my full quote:

(03-29-2024, 12:10 PM)Alan V Wrote: This is my favorite argument for why God doesn't exist:

Science has shown that consciousness is brain-dependent.  All sorts of studies and observations support this: dementia, brain injuries, localization of functions, the effects of drugs, how consciousness changes with brain development, sleep and dreaming, and so on.

That means that when the brain dies, consciousness disappears.  So there is no afterlife.

Without a brain, there is no consciousness.  Therefore an immaterial God with consciousness cannot exist.

First of all, I presented this as an argument rather than a belief.  I consider that it has a very high probability of being true.

Second, I refer to all sorts of evidence, well-studied by scientists, showing that consciousness is brain-dependent.  Consciousness disappears without certain specific combinations of brain structures, brain activation, and brain chemistry.  We can all verify this in our own experiences when we sleep deeply.

Third, this information is worth much more than an elephant-load of speculation, folklore, or mythology about disembodied consciousness of any variety.

So at least many theists are dishonest. You can see this again and again in how they try to argue their own points by excluding relevant information.
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#15

The Intrinsic Honesty of Atheism
(04-22-2024, 10:02 AM)airportkid Wrote:
(04-21-2024, 09:20 PM)brewerb Wrote: I'd limit an atheists honesty to belief/non belief in gods.

That should be implicit; my OP said atheism is honest, not atheistsBut if the nuances of language require spelling that out anyway, OK.

You use both in the post.

Apparently you don't like the 'alternative viewpoints and perspectives' of socratic questioning.

Unpucker.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#16

The Intrinsic Honesty of Atheism
(04-21-2024, 08:29 PM)Huggy Bear Wrote: ...Interesting, I've noticed when science conflicts with your
atheist beliefs, you tend to reject it out of hand, it's quite
amazing to watch atheist's scramble and attempt to discredit
peer reviewed research when it conflicts with atheist belief.

Firstly—and unlike theism—atheists support no "beliefs" as
part of atheism.  Theists have an entire shopping list of beliefs.  
Faith itself is defined as "belief without evidence".

I'm guessing you don't have any in-depth comprehension of what
atheism really means.  Which is a common and confounding
problem for numerous theists.

Can you give us a couple of examples of what you've seen when
atheists "scramble" to discredit peer-reviewed science?

I've asked other theists here to prove that unicorns do not exist.
Can you answer that challenge, or do you think there's a possibility
they do?
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#17

The Intrinsic Honesty of Atheism
(04-21-2024, 08:36 PM)1Sam15 Wrote:
(04-21-2024, 08:29 PM)Huggy Bear Wrote: Interesting, I've noticed when science conflicts with your atheist beliefs, you tend to reject it out of hand, it's quite amazing to watch atheist's scramble and attempt to discredit peer reviewed research when it conflicts with atheist belief.


*emphasis mine*

Bold mine

What are “atheist beliefs”?
He's not going to be able to answer you. He doesn't even know what science or scientific evidence is.
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#18

The Intrinsic Honesty of Atheism
(04-21-2024, 06:45 PM)airportkid Wrote: Does this mean that theism is therefore intrinsically dishonest?  Beyond a certain level of knowledge, I think so.  A child believing in a god hasn't attained enough experience or knowledge to know better.  But by adulthood, somewhere along that journey we all take (if we're paying attention - not everyone does), honesty starts having to be set aside in order to sustain belief.
I think most theists don't mean to be dishonest; they see themselves as scrupulously honest in fact. However -- they are dishonest, at least with themselves, which means they can't be entirely honest with anyone else.

I think the statement "theism is intrinsically dishonest" is a fair and correct statement at least with regard to theistic belief-systems, which are not anchored in reality or based on valid evidence, but are just assertions about unexaminable things in supernatural realms.

I have always seen religions as requiring faith (in the religious sense) and that kind of faith represents a failed epistemology. With an improper foundation for knowledge, the knowledge is false, and you cannot but promote falsity.
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#19

The Intrinsic Honesty of Atheism
(04-21-2024, 08:41 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:Interesting, I've noticed when science conflicts with your atheist beliefs, you tend to reject it out of hand, it's quite amazing to watch atheist's scramble and attempt to discredit peer reviewed research when it conflicts with atheist belief.

Your "peers" tend to be jesus freaks first and foremost.  Tell me, when has science ever said that some "god" was responsible for anything tangible?

I'd like a few examples.

Still waiting, Huggy.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#20

The Intrinsic Honesty of Atheism
I see theists belief system(s) more as cognitive dissonance than intentional dishonesty. A dissonance that they have rationalized over the course of many years. I can guess at many motives but more than likely each has their own reasons just like they each have a personal conception of god(s)

From the outside it appears dishonest but from the inside.................

Edit: Would you tell a schizophrenic with delusions of grandeur or paranoia they were being dishonest?
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#21

The Intrinsic Honesty of Atheism
(04-23-2024, 02:21 AM)brewerb Wrote: I see theists belief system(s) more as cognitive dissonance than intentional dishonesty...

Yes.

Dissonance due to inconsistency between commitment and
information occurs when one commits to a belief, value, or
ideal (EG: religion) before having all of the information, or
new information contradicts the commitment one has made
to a belief.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#22

The Intrinsic Honesty of Atheism
They don't see it as dissonance at all.  They think they have all the truth they need in their silly little book of bullshit...no matter which one it happens to be.

Delusional people do not think they are delusional.  They think we are.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#23

The Intrinsic Honesty of Atheism
(04-23-2024, 06:22 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Delusional people do not think they are delusional.  They think we are.

It is significant that virtually every believer believes it possible to believe incorrectly, and believes there are many others who DO believe incorrectly, but NO believer believes there's even a possibility THEY believe incorrectly.  It's the same dynamic that has 95% of drivers believing they're above average at driving.  There are no limits to delusion - you could say it's one of humanity's most defining characteristics.
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#24

The Intrinsic Honesty of Atheism
(04-23-2024, 06:38 PM)airportkid Wrote:
(04-23-2024, 06:22 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Delusional people do not think they are delusional.  They think we are.

It is significant that virtually every believer believes it possible to believe incorrectly, and believes there are many others who DO believe incorrectly, but NO believer believes there's even a possibility THEY believe incorrectly.  It's the same dynamic that has 95% of drivers believing they're above average at driving.  There are no limits to delusion - you could say it's one of humanity's most defining characteristics.

I’d point out that if a believer does suddenly think he’s been believing incorrectly, he’ll switch churches to be in the right one.  Christians are becoming very good at stealing believers from some church to theirs.  On very rare occasions, they just realize they’re all wrong…oh, wait!  That’s happening more and more these days!
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#25

The Intrinsic Honesty of Atheism
(04-23-2024, 10:27 PM)pattylt Wrote:
(04-23-2024, 06:38 PM)airportkid Wrote: It is significant that virtually every believer believes it possible to believe incorrectly, and believes there are many others who DO believe incorrectly, but NO believer believes there's even a possibility THEY believe incorrectly.  It's the same dynamic that has 95% of drivers believing they're above average at driving.  There are no limits to delusion - you could say it's one of humanity's most defining characteristics.

I’d point out that if a believer does suddenly think he’s been believing incorrectly, he’ll switch churches to be in the right one.  Christians are becoming very good at stealing believers from some church to theirs.  On very rare occasions, they just realize they’re all wrong…oh, wait!  That’s happening more and more these days!

I did not know that christians switched religions very often!
Two paths diverged in the woods, and I managed to take both...
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