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What Prohibits God From Being Natural?

What Prohibits God From Being Natural?
(05-05-2024, 04:43 PM)Charladele Wrote: What we know about the natural world:

-No living being could exist for over 4.54 billions of years. Even the longest living creatures like sharks and horse shoe crabs eventually die and turn back into elements.

-No living being without a material brain has the ability to think.  After all, none of us could think before we were born.

-No sentient being without a physical form would be able to produce sounds or interact with the physical world (ie. create the earth with a "word" or talk to Adam and Eve).

-No sentient life form has yet been able to create another sentient life form that is completely different than itself using available materials.

-Whether living or not, everything is made up of materials found in the universe, and though death or decayed, everything returns to the universe.

-Human language emerged over a long period of time and probably appeared before the first hominids began migrating out of Africa, some 100,000 years ago, and many other animals also have a form of language.

-The universe is in a constant state of flux.  Living things all die.  Even stars, planets, and solar systems constantly degrade, transform, and reform. We have witnessed this out in the universe, the constant reforming of everything.  Our own solar system will someday cease to exist, probably long after humans no longer inhabit it.

-Human animals have managed to thrive on earth by gathering into social groups, and developing thinking skills, but we are only superior to other animals because we THINK WE ARE! Put one human up against one hyena and we would see who is more superior!

In conclusion, an invisible, non-material deity cannot exist.  He only lives in our imaginations and our delusional thoughts.  He has not been felt, heard from, or been seen by man since man evolved from a primitive ape-like creature millions of years ago (and we have the actual fossilized evidence to prove a good portion of that journey). There have even been studies that have proven that prayer has no effect on anything or anyone.  Your precious bible was written by humans and most of it has never been backed by any true discovery. There has been no evidence of a world-wide flood. There has never been any evidence that Moses' people were enslaved by Egyptians or that his people wandered the desert for 40 years. No writers of Jesus' time period ever mentioned anything about any Jesus and "miraculous" activities (other than in the bible). The story of Noah's ark is an impossible fairy tale that could have never happened with what we know about nature and the natural universe

That was a long, drawn out non sequitur and your conclusion just a rambling mess of unrelated assertions. Perhaps you should try responding in smaller chunks on more focused points if you want a back-and-forth discussion.
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What Prohibits God From Being Natural?
(05-06-2024, 12:32 PM)SteveII Wrote: That was a long, drawn out non sequitur and your conclusion just a rambling mess of unrelated assertions. Perhaps you should try responding in smaller chunks on more focused points if you want a back-and-forth discussion.

How is that a non sequitur? This post presents a series of facts about life in the universe that are evidence that a deity as presented in ancient mythology to be impossible; in other words evidence that prohibits God from being natural since the laws of nature would make it impossible.
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What Prohibits God From Being Natural?
(05-06-2024, 01:35 PM)epronovost Wrote:
(05-06-2024, 12:32 PM)SteveII Wrote: That was a long, drawn out non sequitur and your conclusion just a rambling mess of unrelated assertions. Perhaps you should try responding in smaller chunks on more focused points if you want a back-and-forth discussion.

How is that a non sequitur? This post presents a series of facts about life in the universe that are evidence that a deity as presented in ancient mythology to be impossible; in other words evidence that prohibits God from being natural since the laws of nature would make it impossible.

Literally no one believes in a God confined by the universe nor the laws of nature.
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What Prohibits God From Being Natural?
(05-06-2024, 02:04 PM)SteveII Wrote:
(05-06-2024, 01:35 PM)epronovost Wrote: How is that a non sequitur? This post presents a series of facts about life in the universe that are evidence that a deity as presented in ancient mythology to be impossible; in other words evidence that prohibits God from being natural since the laws of nature would make it impossible.

Literally no one believes in a God confined by the universe nor the laws of nature.

This is ridiculously insulting towards pantheist, a variety of deists, the millions of human through history that sincerely believed in god-kings, animist current and past, etc.

It's not because something is no longer popular that no one believes in it. Get your head out of your ass and think with your head once in while. I don't think you ignore the fact that these religious movements and practices exists even today.
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What Prohibits God From Being Natural?
(05-06-2024, 02:11 PM)epronovost Wrote:
(05-06-2024, 02:04 PM)SteveII Wrote: Literally no one believes in a God confined by the universe nor the laws of nature.

This is ridiculously insulting towards pantheist, a variety of deists, the millions of human through history that sincerely believed in god-kings, animist current and past, etc.

It's not because something is no longer popular that no one believes in it. Get your head out of your ass and think with your head once in while. I don't think you ignore the fact that these religious movements and practices exists even today.

Pantheist don't believe in a God. Deist believe in a supreme creator being certainly not constrained by the universe and the laws of physics. I was not talking about the millions of people in history who believed nonsense. "Believes' is in the present tense. If someone wants to worship nature or animals or some other 'spirits' they don't really call them "God" --you're back to pantheism.
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What Prohibits God From Being Natural?
[Image: Screenshot-2024-05-06-at-10-14-10-panthe...Search.png]
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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What Prohibits God From Being Natural?
(05-06-2024, 03:17 PM)Dānu Wrote: [Image: Screenshot-2024-05-06-at-10-14-10-panthe...Search.png]

Definitely not confined by the universe nor the laws of nature--especially in the context we are talking about where Charladele rambles on about why there can't be a God because...soundwaves.
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What Prohibits God From Being Natural?
(05-06-2024, 02:36 PM)SteveII Wrote: Pantheist don't believe in a God.

While that might be true for some pantheist, this would be false for most. As the name imply, pantheism is a form of theism and thus there is a God. God is not a seperate and distinct entity from the rest of nature though. 


Quote:Deist believe in a supreme creator being certainly not constrained by the universe and the laws of physics.

Again, this is overly generous assumption and characterisation of deism; can you stop painting people with a wide brush, especially people you do not know much about nor care for?

Quote:was not talking about the millions of people in history who believed nonsense.
 

I hope you include yourself in this category, but somehow I doubt so. Your magical man is certainly not non-sense, but their magical men certainly is. After all, everybody knows that your stories of magic are so much more reasonable than the magical stories of others even the magical stories of people you do not know.


I would also like to note that there are still people worshiping deities from the ancient world from Zeus to Isis as well as Shinto, traditional Chinese relgion, tengri and a variety of ancestor cults. COuld you afford to be a little less racist? You certainly don't like to be called delusional here so it would be nice if you didn't do the same to people of other faiths, especially when such people are part of oppressed and maligned minorities like tribal people all around the world. There is a certain difference in vileness in calling a wealthy white American Christian a delusional moron for their religious belief and doing the same to a tribe member who have been dispossessed, maligned and oppressed. I think you can get why one is rude, the other one is particularly despicable.

Quote:If someone wants to worship nature or animals or some other 'spirits' they don't really call them "God

Of course they do. In fact, in many languages, the distinction between gods and spirits actually doesn't exist and in others it's only through a development of linguistic and theology that spirits, angels, demons and gods became different kinds of being. In semitic religions, demons were a type of gods for example. You would have to wait until the 10th century BC to see a sharp distinction between lesser spiritual beings, so called spirits, angels and demons, and proper divine beings.
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What Prohibits God From Being Natural?
Quote:Instead, Spinoza argues the whole of the natural world, including human beings, follows one and the same set of natural laws (so, humans are not special), that everything that happens could not have happened differently, that the universe is one inherently active totality (which can be conceived of as either “God” or “Nature”), and that the mind and the body are one and the same thing conceived in two ways.

Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy || Baruch Spinoza | Metaphysics
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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What Prohibits God From Being Natural?
Actually, soundwaves are a perfectly good example of why God cannot exist. For one entity to communicate verbally with another entity, both have to have a physical mouth and physical working ear parts. Your God has neither. So he could never have "talked" to all the people that the bible claimed he talked to. He never could have "narrated" the bible to humans either.

Your argument against that is that God is not a physical entity. Bingo! Case closed! Nothing can live OUTSIDE the universe! There is no such PLACE as outside the universe. No one can go there, except in one's imagination (and when you say "imagination" you have to move your hands in a gesture of a rainbow!)
Formerly WiCharlie Sun
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What Prohibits God From Being Natural?
And the irony of the year award goes to...

(05-06-2024, 12:32 PM)SteveII Wrote: That was a long, drawn out non sequitur and your conclusion just a rambling mess of unrelated assertions. Perhaps you should try responding in smaller chunks on more focused points if you want a back-and-forth discussion.
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What Prohibits God From Being Natural?
(05-06-2024, 06:20 PM)Charladele Wrote: Actually, soundwaves are a perfectly good example of why God cannot exist.  For one entity to communicate verbally with another entity, both have to have a physical mouth and physical working ear parts.  Your God has neither.  So he could never have "talked" to all the people that the bible claimed he talked to.  He never could have "narrated" the bible to humans either.

Your argument against that is that God is not a physical entity.  Bingo!  Case closed!  Nothing can live OUTSIDE the universe!  There is no such PLACE as outside the universe. No one can go there, except in one's imagination (and when you say "imagination" you have to move your hands in a gesture of a rainbow!)

I want to start by making clear that you brought up the concept of God (albeit inaccurately). I am correcting your conception and not trying to prove anything. In other words, I don't want to hear "yeah, but you can't prove that". That is not my intent here. You have already granted for the sake of the discussion the concept of God existing.

You are confused on several levels here.  I'll start at the lower level because it make the other levels make sense.

The conception of the Christian God is that, prior to creating anything, all that existed was God, without beginning. So, that means that if God exists, God is equal to ultimate reality. You have to consider for a few seconds what that means. Every other thing that exists is contingent upon him.  There is absolutely nothing physical about God. There is not a place where God is.  God did not make the universe from existing stuff. The physical reality we call the universe just came into existence because that's a thing that God, as the ultimate reality, can do. Notice that that also means that our physical reality depends on him for its continued existence and there is no part of any level of contingent reality that God is not aware of. In no sense is the idea of God 'living' outside the universe even coherent.

Although an imperfect analogy, think of a story in the mind of an author. The story's existence is contingent upon the author's mind for its existence and will cease to exist should the author not sustain it. It is an imperfect analogy because God can make a distinctly separate physical universe, from nothing, that contains trillions upon trillion of contingent parts--including people with freewill.

So now we can understand the distinction between the natural and supernatural. Natural is the matter, energy and the laws governing them within the universe--as one big contingent physical sub-reality. The supernatural, is God or things that God creates not part of the one big contingent physical entity we refer to as the universe.

Back to your 'sound' question (any miracles for that matter). God (who is supernatural) causes natural effects. That's it. No big mystery. God, aka ultimate reality, can cause things to happen that do not have natural causes. If God wants soundwaves to form so we can hear them, it is nothing compared to willing a universe into being from nothing. Perhaps that is not even what is going one. Perhaps he causes the eardrums to report something that didn't actually physically exist or maybe the experience just appeared in our mind. It does not matter--thinking that something is difficult for God to actualize means you have misunderstood the context.  

I would also note that many non-religious people believe there is something outside our universe. Many cosmologists posit things outside of our universe, many models propose universe-creating energy or multiverses or some other mechanism to account for what looks like an unavoidable conclusion that our universe had a beginning.
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What Prohibits God From Being Natural?
(05-06-2024, 08:34 PM)SteveII Wrote: I would also note that many non-religious people believe there is something outside our universe. Many cosmologists posit things outside of our universe, many models propose universe-creating energy or multiverses or some other mechanism to account for what looks like an unavoidable conclusion that our universe had a beginning.

You're conflating two very different concepts here. The word universe is used for two very different things. First, the visible universe, or the slice of reality where everything we can see, touch, measure, evaluate, study, etc... resides. Then there's the definition that include everything that can exist. No one posits anything outside of "everything that can exist," since that includes all possible multiverses, etc...

With every breath you expose a vast ignorance of that which you try to tear down and disprove. Of course, christers like you have been trying to tear down reality to make room for your gawd for a long, long time.
[Image: Bastard-Signature.jpg]
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What Prohibits God From Being Natural?
Ah, but you see, you are trying to gaslight a person who grew up in the ultimate gaslighting religion/cult. Only it went even further. It taught that because we were God's perfect creations, we had no fear of injury, sickness, or death. We could overcome those things with prayer and study. It was the ultimate in the belief of the metaphysical. If we kept our minds right and didn't let in any sinful thoughts like fear or doubt or disbelief, we could heal our bodies of any kind of trauma or virus or, yes, even old age.

So growing up, I wasn't allowed to be sick. Yep! You heard that right. I was supposed to believe that the only thing real was God. Everything else (the universe, people, animals) were just illusions. If I felt a cold coming on, I wasn't allowed to complain about it. I was supposed to sit down and pray really hard and study my bible. If my illness didn't go away, it wasn't God's fault. Heck no! It was obviously mine. I wasn't keeping my disbelief at bay. I wasn't turning away doubt. I wasn't using "Mind over matter."

Do you know what damage that does to a child? Anytime I would go and tell my parent's that I didn't feel well I would hear denial. "You can't be as sick as you say." "You don't look sick." "You need to start thinking positive thoughts and it will go away." After a while, I just shut down. I quite trying. I developed severe anxiety which led to any number of panic attacks. I couldn't trust anyone. I couldn't even trust my own feelings. I became suicidal before 4th grade. But there was never any help. Because, if one denies the existent of physical illness, you can be certain no sway will be given to mental problems. If it wasn't for a kind teacher that I had in 5th and also 6th grade, I would have offed myself.

As it was, my brother almost died. He had appendicitis. The thing about Christian Scientists is that they not only deny the existence of illnesses, they try not to learn anything about those illnesses, for fear that the knowledge of symptoms might put ideas in their heads. So my brother complained about pain for three days while they denied him. "It must be something you ate that didn't agree with you." "It must be growing pains."

My mother, who did not grow up as a Christian Scientist, finally relented and took my brother to the emergency room. My brother's appendix had burst and flooded his abdomen with infected pus. If the wait had gone on one more night, he'd have died.

Never once did I find any "healing" through God. And you know what. I saw people die. Of all the usual suspects: cancer, old age, etc. And you know what these Christians do? Despite seeing a dead body in the casket, they DENY the person is dead. "Oh, he has just gone on to another plane of existence."

That's where you are now too. You have been gaslighted so bad, you actually believe that you will end up in some eternal bliss after you are dead. Go ahead. Tell me all about it. Tell me how God is going to take all his special little children up to heaven where they will live forever in wonderland.

Nope. Sorry my delusional little buddy. I've been through too much to be taken in again by such thinking. After years of battling my demons, most of which was brought on by this religion, I will keep my feet firmly on the good old solid earth, breath the air, and be a real person, made up of real stuff and all that.
Formerly WiCharlie Sun
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What Prohibits God From Being Natural?
(05-06-2024, 08:34 PM)SteveII Wrote: So now we can understand the distinction between the natural and supernatural. Natural is the matter, energy and the laws governing them within the universe--as one big contingent physical sub-reality. The supernatural, is God or things that God creates not part of the one big contingent physical entity we refer to as the universe.
This is a constant issue.  The faithful use some other word when they really just mean to say god.  Some term that intelligent people understand some other way.  There's no room for voodoo or esp in that "supernature".  It's just god stuff.  Guess we'll need some hypernature to explain how godstuff and vodoo stuff works in whatever environment it's in.
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What Prohibits God From Being Natural?
The definition precludes this god horseshit from being natural.

Quote:nat·u·ral

adjective

  1. existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.


Human brain farts are not "natural."
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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What Prohibits God From Being Natural?
(05-07-2024, 12:59 AM)Minimalist Wrote: The definition precludes this god horseshit from being natural.

Quote:nat·u·ral

adjective

  1. existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.


Human brain farts are not "natural."

Since god is imaginary the horseshitters can make up anything they want.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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What Prohibits God From Being Natural?
Horseshit is more "natural" than god.


Just ask any horse.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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What Prohibits God From Being Natural?
(05-06-2024, 10:00 PM)Charladele Wrote: Ah, but you see, you are trying to gaslight a person who grew up in the ultimate gaslighting religion/cult.  Only it went even further.  It taught that because we were God's perfect creations, we had no fear of injury, sickness, or death.  We could overcome those things with prayer and study.  It was the ultimate in the belief of the metaphysical.  If we kept our minds right and didn't let in any sinful thoughts like fear or doubt or disbelief, we could heal our bodies of any kind of trauma or virus or, yes, even old age.

So growing up, I wasn't allowed to be sick.  Yep!  You heard that right.  I was supposed to believe that the only thing real was God.  Everything else (the universe, people, animals) were just illusions.  If I felt a cold coming on, I wasn't allowed to complain about it.  I was supposed to sit down and pray really hard and study my bible.  If my illness didn't go away, it wasn't God's fault. Heck no!  It was obviously mine.  I wasn't keeping my disbelief at bay.  I wasn't turning away doubt. I wasn't using "Mind over matter."

Do you know what damage that does to a child?  Anytime I would go and tell my parent's that I didn't feel well I would hear denial.  "You can't be as sick as you say."  "You don't look sick." "You need to start thinking positive thoughts and it will go away."  After a while, I just shut down.  I quite trying.  I developed severe anxiety which led to any number of panic attacks.  I couldn't trust anyone.  I couldn't even trust my own feelings.  I became suicidal before 4th grade.  But there was never any help.  Because, if one denies the existent of physical illness, you can be certain no sway will be given to mental problems.  If it wasn't for a kind teacher that I had in 5th and also 6th grade, I would have offed myself.

As it was, my brother almost died.  He had appendicitis.  The thing about Christian Scientists is that they not only deny the existence of illnesses, they try not to learn anything about those illnesses, for fear that the knowledge of symptoms might put ideas in their heads.  So my brother complained about pain for three days while they denied him.  "It must be something you ate that didn't agree with you."  "It must be growing pains."

My mother, who did not grow up as a Christian Scientist, finally relented and took my brother to the emergency room.  My brother's appendix had burst and flooded his abdomen with infected pus.  If the wait had gone on one more night, he'd have died.

Never once did I find any "healing" through God.  And you know what.  I saw people die.  Of all the usual suspects: cancer, old age, etc.  And you know what these Christians do?  Despite seeing a dead body in the casket, they DENY the person is dead.  "Oh, he has just gone on to another plane of existence."

That's where you are now too.  You have been gaslighted so bad, you actually believe that you will end up in some eternal bliss after you are dead.  Go ahead.  Tell me all about it.  Tell me how God is going to take all his special little children up to heaven where they will live forever in wonderland.

Nope.  Sorry my delusional little buddy.  I've been through too much to be taken in again by such thinking.  After years of battling my demons, most of which was brought on by this religion, I will keep my feet firmly on the good old solid earth, breath the air, and be a real person, made up of real stuff and all that.

First, I am sorry for your experience growing up. That sound's terrible.

BUT, I am not a Christian Scientist, nor your delusional little buddy and I'm not sure you know what gaslighting is. YOU made an argument (such as it was) about how God was impossible which relied on a rather simplistic concept of God that no one actually holds to. That's called a strawman argument. I posted a short reply about the form of your argument to which you doubled-down on you claims in reply. I then took the time to outline a more thorough explanation of the concepts in a clearly academic manner.

To which you reply gaslight...terrible childhood...I'm delusional. That's not a discussion, that's an ad hominem and a bunch of irrelevant stuff meant to cover up the fact you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to Christian doctrine, logical arguments, and philosophy of religion.

Fine, you might be here at AD (or at least in this particular sub-forum) to post random nonsense about how Christians are stupid, pat yourself on the back for your enlightened logical mind, and never be challenged for it. If that is the case, you fit right in with a bunch of the people here. But if you post nonsense about what Christians believe or make bad arguments, I am going to call them out.

Since you are new (to me) and may know nothing about me, I will say I am not here to proselytize. Don't assume it in your replies. I don't care what you believe (although 'why' might be of interest from time to time). I am here to discuss subjects that are of interest to me, doing research along the way, and through the process of discussion/debate, become more familiar with the subject and improve my ability to articulate a wide range of facts, concepts, and processes.
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What Prohibits God From Being Natural?
Christians Scientists believe abstractions, by their conceptual existence alone, can have concrete effects and actions. Steve believes the same. I'd call that delusional, every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

How's your church numbers holding up Steve?
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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What Prohibits God From Being Natural?
"It's supernatural!"
https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/statu...1277982755
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What Prohibits God From Being Natural?
(05-07-2024, 01:50 AM)Minimalist Wrote: Horseshit is more "natural" than god.


Just ask any horse.

Or any horse manure shoveler. Big Grin
Two paths diverged in the woods, and I managed to take both...
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What Prohibits God From Being Natural?
If god kills most of a population does it hear the screams?
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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