Welcome to Atheist Discussion, a new community created by former members of The Thinking Atheist forum.

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Was Jesus a protestant?
#26

Was Jesus a protestant?
(04-17-2024, 01:41 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(04-17-2024, 01:06 PM)1Sam15 Wrote: What’s your god do for anyone?

I'm not interested in convincing you, buddy.

This is why I loathe believers.

Such a shitty attitude
Reply
#27

Was Jesus a protestant?
(04-17-2024, 03:49 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(04-17-2024, 03:44 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Archaeology shows that 'god' was a 'goddess" for the earliest part of human existence....


https://www.vice.com/en/article/paw8bv/g...ana-grande

G-d in Judaism is both genders.

That's a bit of a "recent spin" within Judaism though. For most of Jewish religious history G-d was a explicitly a dude with a body, a penis, using male tenses and honorifics and even a wife until the 8th century BC. Even today I would say most Jewish believers grant to G-d male secondary and tertiary gender characteristics even though G-d is no longer considered as masculine of body or even corporeal in any significant way. Basically G-d is as masculine as Optimus Prime, leader of the Autobot. Okay, maybe not as masculine than Optimus Prime since there is nothing more masculine than a baritone robot warrior and leader with cannons who is also truck.
The following 1 user Likes epronovost's post:
  • 1Sam15
Reply
#28

Was Jesus a protestant?
(04-17-2024, 11:15 PM)epronovost Wrote:
(04-17-2024, 03:49 PM)Aliza Wrote: G-d in Judaism is both genders.

That's a bit of a "recent spin" within Judaism though. For most of Jewish religious history G-d was a explicitly a dude with a body, a penis, using male tenses and honorifics and even a wife until the 8th century BC. Even today I would say most Jewish believers grant to G-d male secondary and tertiary gender characteristics even though G-d is no longer considered as masculine of body or even corporeal in any significant way. Basically G-d is as masculine as Optimus Prime, leader of the Autobot. Okay, maybe not as masculine than Optimus Prime since there is nothing more masculine than a baritone robot warrior and leader with cannons who is also truck.

Recent spin? No. In Jewish teaching, G-d is neither male nor female, but has attributes of both. Grammatically we refer to G-d as male, and we do so in most imagery as well, but that's not how we're taught to regard G-d. 

https://www.thetorah.com/article/the-gender-of-god
The following 1 user Likes Aliza's post:
  • Kathryn L
Reply
#29

Was Jesus a protestant?
(04-17-2024, 11:05 PM)1Sam15 Wrote:
(04-17-2024, 01:41 PM)Aliza Wrote: I'm not interested in convincing you, buddy.

This is why I loathe believers.

Such a shitty attitude

Sam, I don't want to talk to you and I don't really care if it negatively contributes to your view of theists.

You'll get over it.
Reply
#30

Was Jesus a protestant?
Quote:In Jewish teaching, G-d is neither male nor female, but has attributes of both. 


Early inscriptions - the few that there are - indicate the earliest incarnations of yhwh had a consort in Asherah.

[Image: content?id=IGR7-OSz7bUC&pg=PP1&img=1&zoo...WUA&w=1280]


Of course, later editors did their best to write her out of the narrative.... which is about what you can expect from men.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
Reply
#31

Was Jesus a protestant?
(04-17-2024, 11:33 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(04-17-2024, 11:05 PM)1Sam15 Wrote: This is why I loathe believers.

Such a shitty attitude

Sam, I don't want to talk to you and I don't really care if it negatively contributes to your view of theists.

You'll get over it.

Spot on!  Thumbs Up
Reply
#32

Was Jesus a protestant?
(04-17-2024, 11:29 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(04-17-2024, 11:15 PM)epronovost Wrote: That's a bit of a "recent spin" within Judaism though. For most of Jewish religious history G-d was a explicitly a dude with a body, a penis, using male tenses and honorifics and even a wife until the 8th century BC. Even today I would say most Jewish believers grant to G-d male secondary and tertiary gender characteristics even though G-d is no longer considered as masculine of body or even corporeal in any significant way. Basically G-d is as masculine as Optimus Prime, leader of the Autobot. Okay, maybe not as masculine than Optimus Prime since there is nothing more masculine than a baritone robot warrior and leader with cannons who is also truck.

Recent spin? No. In Jewish teaching, G-d is neither male nor female, but has attributes of both. Grammatically we refer to G-d as male, and we do so in most imagery as well, but that's not how we're taught to regard G-d. 

https://www.thetorah.com/article/the-gender-of-god

Yes, recent spin......as your own link concludes.....?

I find the whole bit fascinating. The dissolution of theism into deism as our contemporary and secularized minds...believers and non believers alike....become more and more uncomfortable with the fundamental aspects of theistic belief - that of a personal and intervening deity. Judaism is just a tiny sliver of that trend. The entirety of abrahamism in the west has been undergoing this transformation for centuries..and right alongside it the curious attempt to revise history so that, conceptually, the belief sets we identify with in present were not wrong (by our lights) in past.
Reply
#33

Was Jesus a protestant?
(04-18-2024, 05:37 AM)Rhythmcs Wrote:
(04-17-2024, 11:29 PM)Aliza Wrote: Recent spin? No. In Jewish teaching, G-d is neither male nor female, but has attributes of both. Grammatically we refer to G-d as male, and we do so in most imagery as well, but that's not how we're taught to regard G-d. 

https://www.thetorah.com/article/the-gender-of-god

Yes, recent spin......as your own link concludes.....?

I find the whole bit fascinating.  The dissolution of theism into deism as our contemporary and secularized minds...believers and non believers alike....become more and more uncomfortable with the fundamental aspects of theistic belief - that of a personal and intervening deity.  Judaism is just a tiny sliver of that trend.  The entirety of abrahamism in the west has been undergoing this transformation for centuries..and right alongside it the curious attempt to revise history so that, conceptually, the belief sets we identify with in present were not wrong (by our lights) in past.

Okay, so I guess I just considered 1800 years to be "not recent," which was when our rabbinic sages began to write the Talmud. They were recording Jewish views on the Torah and Judaism that were not previously written down. I won't dig any further into this. This is just how I was taught and I'm answering questions, not convincing.

You raise an interesting point, though, about revising history. Mine is a religion and culture who records books full of our mistakes so we learn what not to do, and you suggest that we're hiding from our history. -But one thing that we do change, and we'll openly admit to this, is our understanding of Torah when science comes in and contradicts it. That's something we do, and we find no issue with that. -And sure, there are fundamentalists among us who are VERY resistant to change their view, but that's a small portion of the Jewish population. I have always been taught than if we teach the world is flat because it says somewhere that there are corners of Earth, and then we launch a rocket and confirm that the Earth is round, we concede that we misunderstood that part of the bible and we took something figurative as literal. We update our understanding and move on with our lives. Maybe that's what makes Judaism a religion so sympathetic to science and education; we're a culture that is comfortable reviewing the facts and adjusting our outlook.
The following 4 users Like Aliza's post:
  • atheist_walks_in, Minimalist, pattylt, mordant
Reply
#34

Was Jesus a protestant?
The history that judaism wrote down and the history that happened as written does not comprise a single circle on a venn diagram. I can think of all sorts of reasons that judaism is further along on the same slide as all the other abrahamic religions. They range from existential concerns that each abrahamic faith (and every religion, really) share - to the things specific to the history of judaism in the west. Jewish people have often found themselves on the shitty end of our superstitions, opportunities for salient observations abounded.

It's not really an issue of "hiding" history, though - and certainly not some attempt to convince me of anything. You, for example, are still running with the idea that the beliefs you've expressed here are -the beliefs- and were common, going back a very long time - as a response to objections. I suspect that you do know they were not. That if you were to hop into a time machine and go back 1800 years and ask a jewish person whether god was male or female you know the answer you're likely to have received if for no other reason than accidents of history. In this case the prevalence of strong patriarchal views and societies over the duration of the period in question. Meanwhile, The views that you have are undoubtedly common today, even if less so in some demographics than others which you likely perceive to be antiquated, as a consequence of modern social mores in our broader society - not ancient tradition.

If you used your own link as source material, you'd find that the birth of this idea as you now have it was sometime in the medieval period, and at that same time we see christian and islamic scholars flirting with the same notions - even atheists - expressing a form of atheism that could evade the religious authorities at the time. That was when some scholars..it would still be a minority view then between scholars and pretty much unheard of to the rank and file, began to express the first grumblings of disappointment with their theologies in this regard. The notion, as you've faithfully communicated it, being that god should not be subject to anthropomorphization. However, there's a huge caveat to that objection. That god should not be subject to anthropomorphization in this way. It's not possible to have a theistic belief without some anthropomorphization - that's one of it's defining qualities. What separates it from other beliefs about the nature of gods.

Rather than reviewing facts and adjusting an outlook, this is an attempt to review facts so that -they- can be adjusted to a previously held outlook, as the prohibition on conceiving of gods as personal cannot be maintained in a religion that contends that gods are personal and intervening. The same thing is happening here, in thread, when you insist that the judaism you were taught is, somehow, the judaism from 1800 years ago. Bear in mind, I agree with you, strongly, on the principle of the matter. I think it is the height of human arrogance, stupidity, and laziness to contend that the author of creation, the very fabric of reality, is like us - but I don't have a belief in a religion premised on such deities to rationalize against that shared principle, through revisionism or any other means. I think that the abrahamic obsession with pedigree is a compounding factor here, to something that we do as human beings....believers or not, about all of our changing beliefs through time.

To that effect - spinozan pantheism is a sort of transitional form - a bridge between full throated abrahamic theism and the more passive and skeptical deism it's been resolving into, most prominently in the last two centuries, specifically in the west, and largely concentrated at the top end of the demographic pile in that context judged by wealth or propensity to progressivism.
The following 1 user Likes Rhythmcs's post:
  • Cavebear
Reply
#35

Was Jesus a protestant?
(04-18-2024, 09:58 AM)Aliza Wrote:
(04-18-2024, 05:37 AM)Rhythmcs Wrote: Yes, recent spin......as your own link concludes.....?

I find the whole bit fascinating.  The dissolution of theism into deism as our contemporary and secularized minds...believers and non believers alike....become more and more uncomfortable with the fundamental aspects of theistic belief - that of a personal and intervening deity.  Judaism is just a tiny sliver of that trend.  The entirety of abrahamism in the west has been undergoing this transformation for centuries..and right alongside it the curious attempt to revise history so that, conceptually, the belief sets we identify with in present were not wrong (by our lights) in past.

Okay, so I guess I just considered 1800 years to be "not recent," which was when our rabbinic sages began to write the Talmud. They were recording Jewish views on the Torah and Judaism that were not previously written down. I won't dig any further into this. This is just how I was taught and I'm answering questions, not convincing.

You raise an interesting point, though, about revising history. Mine is a religion and culture who records books full of our mistakes so we learn what not to do, and you suggest that we're hiding from our history. -But one thing that we do change, and we'll openly admit to this, is our understanding of Torah when science comes in and contradicts it. That's something we do, and we find no issue with that. -And sure, there are fundamentalists among us who are VERY resistant to change their view, but that's a small portion of the Jewish population. I have always been taught than if we teach the world is flat because it says somewhere that there are corners of Earth, and then we launch a rocket and confirm that the Earth is round, we concede that we misunderstood that part of the bible and we took something figurative as literal. We update our understanding and move on with our lives. Maybe that's what makes Judaism a religion so sympathetic to science and education; we're a culture that is comfortable reviewing the facts and adjusting our outlook.

To add on to this…every generation of Jewish scholars and rabbis reinterpret Torah for their time.  I’m not sure the majority ever considered Torah as “done” in the sense of its meaning.  Remember it’s a religion of orthopraxy (right practice) not orthodoxy (right belief).  It’s how the Mishna came about and it’s pretty obvious that changes in interpretation are made over time.  It’s a feature, not a bug. Sola Scriptura is a completely foreign concept in Judaism.
The following 5 users Like pattylt's post:
  • Aliza, mordant, epronovost, Cavebear, atheist_walks_in
Reply
#36

Was Jesus a protestant?
The idea of a religion from scripture alone is and has never been anything other than cover for endless revision. It's a example of the reassertion of historical and cultural pedigree by literary revisionism.

The theological revisions themselves are, imo, hit or miss - the historic and cultural revisionism that's used to emplace and advance them are always false and self serving.
The following 1 user Likes Rhythmcs's post:
  • pattylt
Reply
#37

Was Jesus a protestant?
(04-17-2024, 03:53 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Don't tell the fundies....they'll shit a brick!

Finally, a good use for fundies.
Reply
#38

Was Jesus a protestant?
It's important to remember a couple of salient facts about this 'scripture' horseshit.

1.  Even in the first century literacy rates were shockingly low.

Quote:And I would say the vast majority of Biblical scholars would agree that the illiteracy rates in Jesus's world were somewhere around 98 percent. 98 percent of Jesus's fellow Jews could neither read nor write. The notion that a tekton, as Jesus is referred to in the Bible, a woodworker, which would make him the second-lowest rung on the social ladder in his time just above the slave and the indigent and the beggar, the notion that he would have had any sort of formal education, let alone the kind of education necessary to debate theological points with the scribes and the Pharisees, is difficult  to reconcile with what we know of the history of the time.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-SEB-76135


2.  We have no indication that any of this stuff which eventually morphed into Judaism existed in written form prior to the third century BCE and that was written in Greek...probably by ex-pats living in Alexandria.

Religion was the province of the priest class and they used it to solidify their position in the social hierarchy and the commons were expected to do what they were told or the priest's primary ally, the king, would kick their asses.

3.  These were oral tales, pronounced from the mouths of the priests not any god, that were used to awe the great unwashed.  Oral tales are of course subject to editing by any one who feels like 'improving' the story!
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
The following 1 user Likes Minimalist's post:
  • mordant
Reply
#39

Was Jesus a protestant?
(04-19-2024, 04:18 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:And I would say the vast majority of Biblical scholars would agree that the illiteracy rates in Jesus's world were somewhere around 98 percent. 98 percent of Jesus's fellow Jews could neither read nor write. The notion that a tekton, as Jesus is referred to in the Bible, a woodworker, which would make him the second-lowest rung on the social ladder in his time just above the slave and the indigent and the beggar, the notion that he would have had any sort of formal education, let alone the kind of education necessary to debate theological points with the scribes and the Pharisees, is difficult  to reconcile with what we know of the history of the time.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-SEB-76135
Easily handled by the Christers though ... "It's a miracle -- he was the son of god, and because of that his knowledge of theological and spiritual matters were far beyond any human's. He didn't need to be educated by mere humans."

Someone here or elsewhere once called this "the inpenetrable FundaShield of ignorance ™".
The following 2 users Like mordant's post:
  • pattylt, Cavebear
Reply
#40

Was Jesus a protestant?
When their only answer to problems is to cite "miracles" their intellectual bankruptcy is clearly displayed.

There are no fucking miracles....and there are no fucking gods.

They need to grow the fuck up.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
The following 1 user Likes Minimalist's post:
  • Cavebear
Reply
#41

Was Jesus a protestant?
(04-19-2024, 09:32 PM)Minimalist Wrote: When their only answer to problems is to cite "miracles" their intellectual bankruptcy is clearly displayed.

There are no fucking miracles....and there are no fucking gods.

They need to grow the fuck up.
We used to sing a little ditty, "I Believe in Miracles" ... it is an example of how something that is intellectually bankrupt is recast as a virtue.
Quote:I believe in miracles
I’ve seen a soul set free
Miraculous the change in one
Redeemed thru Calvary
I’ve seen the lily push its way
Up through the stubborn sod
I believe in miracles
For I believe in God

Note that everything cited as a miracle in the chorus is not in fact a miracle and is totally explicable without god.

Note that by extension disbelief in miracles = disbelief in god.

As a Christian you must believe in both, although the definition of both can be, er, slippery.
The following 3 users Like mordant's post:
  • Minimalist, pattylt, Cavebear
Reply
#42

Was Jesus a protestant?
I think Jesus was just Jesus, going around teaching people about love and kindness, or what God was really supposed to be about, then a bunch of men got together and turned the whole thing into something formalized, which was the whole thing Jesus was trying to undo.
The following 4 users Like Kathryn L's post:
  • Inkubus, Rhythmcs, pattylt, atheist_walks_in
Reply
#43

Was Jesus a protestant?
I think jesus is just a character in a set of stories from authors that rarely or never collaborated. We can imagine that jesus was a real boy who said real stuff, if we want, but that won't have anything to do with the jesus come down to us in magic book...and whoever that guy was, if he was, is not the subject of magic book in general or in particular - because magic book is about a god called christ - not some rando named jesus who may or may not have said this or that thing.
The following 3 users Like Rhythmcs's post:
  • Inkubus, pattylt, atheist_walks_in
Reply
#44

Was Jesus a protestant?
(04-22-2024, 06:35 PM)Kathryn L Wrote: I think Jesus was just Jesus, going around teaching people about love and kindness, or what God was really supposed to be about, then a bunch of men got together and turned the whole thing into something formalized, which was the whole thing Jesus was trying to undo.

This is the best spin we can put on the whole sorry episode. And by episode; I mean Christianity. The biggest disaster in human history and it matters not a jot whether the guy in the story even existed.

Why do people believe such bollocks? Because we left the savanna too soon. Homo sapiens aren't ready.
The following 3 users Like Inkubus's post:
  • Kathryn L, pattylt, Minimalist
Reply
#45

Was Jesus a protestant?
(04-15-2024, 04:05 PM)OMM Wrote: ... would he even know what a protestant is?
On another forum someone pointed out that the first religious service held on what is now US soil may have been the ill-fated Spanish settlement down in Florida. That service was held by a Catholic priest. This was in 1559. A hurricane then destroyed the Spanish fleet, resulting in famine and other knock-on effects. The colony was disbanded within two years.

This is evidence that God, at least, may be Protestant ;-)
The following 1 user Likes mordant's post:
  • pattylt
Reply
#46

Was Jesus a protestant?
Or a hurricane......
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
The following 1 user Likes Minimalist's post:
  • pattylt
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)