Was Jesus a protestant?

[OMM]

... would he even know what a protestant is?

[Minimalist]

If jesus had existed he would have been a jew.

And he wouldn't have know what the fuck a 'christian' was!

[brewerb]

He was a charismatic con man tramp making his way living under an oppressive regime.

If you break the word apart I suppose he could be a protest ant.

[mordant]

... would he even know what a protestant is?

Jesus is just an avatar in whose mouth words have been put to support the triumphant faction of early Christianity that we now think of as the proto-orthodox. Jesus, if he was even real, would not have had any idea of the many competing orthodoxies that duked it out in the early decades, much less the thousands of sects that Christianity ultimately splintered into. Hell, Paul even seems to know little of the Jesus described in the gospels, and he's a near-contemporary.

[Cavebear]

I always love the "Was Jesus a Jew" question? Of course he was. On the assumption that he actually existed at all or other than some wandering would-be Rabbi, a question to him about his "jewishness" would have been met with some confusion. His parents were jewish, his associates were jewish, his culture was jewish. The only non-jews in his world were mostly Romans or foreign merchants.

[Huggy Bear]

I guess by definition he was a protestant, obviously not by denomination.

Protestant means 'to Protest' specifically the catholic church. Jesus obviously protested the religious establishment.

[OakTree500]

Is it not widely reported he was Jewish?

[Minimalist]

I guess by definition he was a protestant, obviously not by denomination.

Protestant means 'to Protest' specifically the catholic church. Jesus obviously protested the religious establishment.

Reasonable observation, there.  There were fringe groups who also opposed the temple cult - like the Essenes.  There could well have been others who made even less of a mark on history.


You know, Huggy, I've always wondered about the information contained here:

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/pha...nd-essenes

There's a chart showing the relative differences between the pre-70 stances of the Sadducees, Pharisees, and Essenes.  It seems to me that of the groups discussed this jesus stuff is most reflective of a pharisee background.  Yet, the gospels indicate that the Pharisees are the primary opponent...with the Sadducees barely getting a mention and the Essenes absent.  This suggests to me that by the time this gospel stuff was cobbled together the Temple had been destroyed and the raison d'etre for the Sadducees existence had ceased to exist.  On top of that, as they were concentrated in Jerusalem at the temple a lot of them would have been killed in the fighting/sack/massacre which took place.  Thus the Sadducees disappear from the stage in the aftermath of Titus getting pissed.  Again, by the time these tales were written down the Pharisees had been elevated to the bad guys as the ones who were actually running the temple at the time these later xtians set their story were no longer functional.

Just seems to me as the Pharisees accepted "resurrection" that they would have been almost natural allies for what eventually emerged as xtian creed.

I know you can't accept that but I would be curious to hear your take on it.  

[Aliza]

...The only non-jews in his world were mostly Romans or foreign merchants.  

And his dad.

[Cavebear]

...The only non-jews in his world were mostly Romans or foreign merchants.  

And his dad.

OK, you cracked me up on "his dad". It is always good to be reminded that no one ever thinks of all possibilities.

I see 3 ways of considering the existence of "god" here. First, that there isn't actually any deity. And that is my base point. But second, that there are actually multiple gods each promoting a version of themselves to their specific believers. But multiple gods seem logically troublesome. How can there be more than one omnipotent power? Multiple co-equal omniscience seems a bit weird. Third, maybe there is just one god and it listens to everyone, understanding that no human can understand it completely, but that doesn't bother it.

I give the first something above 99% likely (that there isn't any deity). And I live and think that way. But of course, there are the other 2 possibilities. I don't worry about those but many people are dedicated to the ideas. Certainly, more people are dedicated to there being only one god and think all the other ideas are blasphemous and evil.

[Aliza]

And his dad.

OK, you cracked me up on "his dad".  It is always good to be reminded that no one ever thinks of all possibilities.

I see 3 ways of considering the existence of "god" here.   First, that there isn't actually any deity.  And that is my base point.  But second, that there are actually multiple gods each promoting a version of themselves to their specific believers.  But multiple gods seem logically troublesome.  How can there be more than one omnipotent power?  Multiple co-equal omniscience seems a bit weird.  Third, maybe there is just one god and it listens to everyone, understanding that no human can understand it completely, but that doesn't bother it.

I give the first something above 99% likely (that there isn't any deity).  And I live and think that way.  But of course, there are the other 2 possibilities.  I don't worry about those but many people are dedicated to the ideas.  Certainly, more people are dedicated to there being only one god and think all the other ideas are blasphemous and evil.

I think there's a G-d who doesn't care if you believe or not. I think that deity is so far above us that it's absurd to think he's sitting around the universe thinking, "Oh shit! Joe Smith of Jackson, Mississippi doesn't believe in me!" 

I think the deity gave us some instructions on how to live a good, meaningful life, and the rest is on us.

[1Sam15]

OK, you cracked me up on "his dad".  It is always good to be reminded that no one ever thinks of all possibilities.

I see 3 ways of considering the existence of "god" here.   First, that there isn't actually any deity.  And that is my base point.  But second, that there are actually multiple gods each promoting a version of themselves to their specific believers.  But multiple gods seem logically troublesome.  How can there be more than one omnipotent power?  Multiple co-equal omniscience seems a bit weird.  Third, maybe there is just one god and it listens to everyone, understanding that no human can understand it completely, but that doesn't bother it.

I give the first something above 99% likely (that there isn't any deity).  And I live and think that way.  But of course, there are the other 2 possibilities.  I don't worry about those but many people are dedicated to the ideas.  Certainly, more people are dedicated to there being only one god and think all the other ideas are blasphemous and evil.

I think there's a G-d who doesn't care if you believe or not. I think that deity is so far above us that it's absurd to think he's sitting around the universe thinking, "Oh shit! Joe Smith of Jackson, Mississippi doesn't believe in me!" 

I think the deity gave us some instructions on how to live a good, meaningful life, and the rest is on us.

Why do you think god created humans at all since omniscient god  new it would regret creating them?

Gen 6:6

[Aliza]

I think there's a G-d who doesn't care if you believe or not. I think that deity is so far above us that it's absurd to think he's sitting around the universe thinking, "Oh shit! Joe Smith of Jackson, Mississippi doesn't believe in me!" 

I think the deity gave us some instructions on how to live a good, meaningful life, and the rest is on us.

Why do you think god created humans at all since omniscient god  new it would regret creating them?

Gen 6:6

So we could live our lives and experience things.

[1Sam15]

Why do you think god created humans at all since omniscient god  new it would regret creating them?

Gen 6:6

So we could live our lives and experience things.

But why did omnigod, knowing it would regret making us, make us?

[1Sam15]

Why does god force born people?

[Aliza]

Why does god force born people?

Yeah... so... I hate to tell you this, but the people in the delivery room "force-born" other people. 

Have you ever been in a delivery room? It's all people in there.

[1Sam15]

Why does god force born people?

Yeah... so... I hate to tell you this, but the people in the delivery room "force-born" other people. 

Have you ever been in a delivery room? It's all people in there.

So god has nothing to do with who is forced born or not, aka miscarriage?

What does god do for me or anyone?

[Aliza]

Yeah... so... I hate to tell you this, but the people in the delivery room "force-born" other people. 

Have you ever been in a delivery room? It's all people in there.

So god has nothing to do with who is forced born or not, aka miscarriage?

What does god do for me or anyone?

Miscarriages are biological. Shit happens. 

What does my G-d do for you? How the fuck should I know. G-d doesn't report to me.

[1Sam15]

So god has nothing to do with who is forced born or not, aka miscarriage?

What does god do for me or anyone?

Miscarriages are biological. Shit happens. 

What does my G-d do for you? How the fuck should I know. G-d doesn't report to me.

What’s your god do for anyone?

[Aliza]

Miscarriages are biological. Shit happens. 

What does my G-d do for you? How the fuck should I know. G-d doesn't report to me.

What’s your god do for anyone?

I'm not interested in convincing you, buddy.

[Szuchow]

Miscarriages are biological. Shit happens. 

What does my G-d do for you? How the fuck should I know. G-d doesn't report to me.

What’s your god do for anyone?

Diddly squat.

[Minimalist]

I think there's a G-d who doesn't care if you believe or not. I think that deity is so far above us that it's absurd to think he's sitting around the universe thinking, "Oh shit! Joe Smith of Jackson, Mississippi doesn't believe in me!" 

I think the deity gave us some instructions on how to live a good, meaningful life, and the rest is on us.

Archaeology shows that 'god' was a 'goddess" for the earliest part of human existence....


https://www.vice.com/en/article/paw8bv/g...ana-grande

Archaeological evidence suggests that God was considered female for the first 200,000 years of human life on earth, even if male-dominated religions sought to displace the matriarchal order.

[Aliza]

I think there's a G-d who doesn't care if you believe or not. I think that deity is so far above us that it's absurd to think he's sitting around the universe thinking, "Oh shit! Joe Smith of Jackson, Mississippi doesn't believe in me!" 

I think the deity gave us some instructions on how to live a good, meaningful life, and the rest is on us.

Archaeology shows that 'god' was a 'goddess" for the earliest part of human existence....


https://www.vice.com/en/article/paw8bv/g...ana-grande

Archaeological evidence suggests that God was considered female for the first 200,000 years of human life on earth, even if male-dominated religions sought to displace the matriarchal order.

G-d in Judaism is both genders.

[Minimalist]

Don't tell the fundies....they'll shit a brick!

[Cavebear]

OK, you cracked me up on "his dad".  It is always good to be reminded that no one ever thinks of all possibilities.

I see 3 ways of considering the existence of "god" here.   First, that there isn't actually any deity.  And that is my base point.  But second, that there are actually multiple gods each promoting a version of themselves to their specific believers.  But multiple gods seem logically troublesome.  How can there be more than one omnipotent power?  Multiple co-equal omniscience seems a bit weird.  Third, maybe there is just one god and it listens to everyone, understanding that no human can understand it completely, but that doesn't bother it.

I give the first something above 99% likely (that there isn't any deity).  And I live and think that way.  But of course, there are the other 2 possibilities.  I don't worry about those but many people are dedicated to the ideas.  Certainly, more people are dedicated to there being only one god and think all the other ideas are blasphemous and evil.

I think there's a G-d who doesn't care if you believe or not. I think that deity is so far above us that it's absurd to think he's sitting around the universe thinking, "Oh shit! Joe Smith of Jackson, Mississippi doesn't believe in me!" 

I think the deity gave us some instructions on how to live a good, meaningful life, and the rest is on us.

OK, while I don't think there is a deity (I'm pretty sure the universe would be a very different place if there was one), I agree we probably couldn't understand it at all. It would be way beyond an ant trying to comprehend a human, for example.

Please allow me to ramble a bit...

My dad was vaguely "deist". He thought there was something that created everything, but then went off to do other things and left us to ourselves. Mom was a lapsed catholic. She used to joke she was raised to believe that "if you were bad you went to hell, but if you were ever, you became a Protestant". LOL. Which says everything anyone needs to know abut my maternal grandparents (though grandad was a happy easy-going tailor who "married up" into New England American-Canadian-French society).

My paternal grandparents were more interesting. Grampa was a friendly soul who got the family through the Great Depression doing odd jobs and gardening organically. He is why I garden organically. And he had the most amazing woodshed. Inches of wood-shavings on the floor. Gramma was some sort of Quaker/Amish/Pennsylvannia Deutch. She spent most of her time in the kitchen (which I remember as being the size of my house). Her big wall-hanging said "The hurrier I go, the behinder I get" (which I think reflected her germanic ancestry).

The eating area (in the kitchen) alone was the size of my living room. She was an amazing cook ("oh it's just food). I "helped" when we visited each Summer. Now Mom made good normal meals (though she never met a vegetable she couldn't boil to death). But gramma could have made a chef cry in envy. OMG, the chicken&dumplings! I say I helped" because we would pick veggies out of the 1/2 acre garden, sit on the front steps de-string green beans and de-silking corn.

And I have to mention her card-skills. I used to awaken at 6 am and gramma was already up. We played rummy. And she was lethal about it! Didn't matter that I was 12, she tried to kill me every hand. I learned to compete. And after dinner, the whole family (an uncle and kids lived with them) to play cards. Not poker or bridge; something called "cinch" or "set-back".

Related to Hearts, but "meaner". I won't bore anyone with all the rules, but you basically bid the number of tricks you would take (without naming a suit. The highest bidder then named trump the suit and everyone had to throw away their non-trump cards and get new cards to 9 (it required 2 decks of cards). Then it was like hearts. Gramma was a killer. Sometimes she would say "Oh, I filled" (all her cards were trumps). And everyone would just wince!

All that is just to explain that an "interesting" lineage leads to an odd person. I am who I am because of all those slightly unusual combinations of genes and culture. Paternal Grump saw the first airplane flight (in a movie theater). And in 1969, he commented "saw the first flight and now we are on the moon". I should mention the maternal grandparents were both 1896 and the paternal ones were both 1900...

So they and my parents produced me. And of course everyone should be grateful.

You mentioned that you appreciated my post and the tone of it. The "tone" is actually my normal self (when not being aggravated by idiots - and you are not one of those). So I thank you for your tolerance of me. I suppose all the above details were sort of a small thank-you gift to help you (et al) understand me better. I've enjoyed this conversation...