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Do not conflate the artist and the art?
#1

Do not conflate the artist and the art?
Michael likely-pedo Jackson springs to mind. Me? I can enjoy his music these days, for the most part, although occasionally I get a "CREEP!" moment and have to walk away. Thoughts?
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#2

Do not conflate the artist and the art?
It’s the same problem with JK Rowling. She wrote marvelous stories that created a new generation of book readers then had to go all anti trans and it made her ugly. I admire her stories but have no desire to contemplate the woman.
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#3

Do not conflate the artist and the art?
(04-15-2024, 05:18 PM)pattylt Wrote: It’s the same problem with JK Rowling.  She wrote marvelous stories that created a new generation of book readers then had to go all anti trans and it made her ugly.  I admire her stories but have no desire to contemplate the woman.

She did?! Can you quote any of her alleged anti-trans statements please?

ETA: likely earliest derail ever lolz
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#4

Do not conflate the artist and the art?
Isn't Rowling one of those people who portray trans-women as just men trying to sneak into restrooms with women? Isn't she one of the people driving this moral panic?
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#5

Do not conflate the artist and the art?
I actually like some of L Ron Hubbard's syfy books. The pseudo religion, it's practices and it's followers............. not so much.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#6

Do not conflate the artist and the art?
Yeah, there's lots of artists whose personal lives are unsavory and often criminally so. I'm usually pretty good about separating the two.
On hiatus.
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#7

Do not conflate the artist and the art?
Just because I can admire the talent, doesn't mean I condone their behavior.
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#8

Do not conflate the artist and the art?
While you can seperate the artist and the work (like you can in the case of Michael Jackson), I don't think this is always pertinent or even desirable. You can't seperate Orwell's work from his politics and actions or you loose all of its context. The same goes for the far less savory H.P Lovecraft.
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#9

Do not conflate the artist and the art?
[Image: main-qimg-c95ed56f8f09295082bca5968891bf74-lq]


This was entirely my first thought.
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#10

Do not conflate the artist and the art?
(04-15-2024, 05:29 PM)Dexta Wrote:
(04-15-2024, 05:18 PM)pattylt Wrote: It’s the same problem with JK Rowling.  She wrote marvelous stories that created a new generation of book readers then had to go all anti trans and it made her ugly.  I admire her stories but have no desire to contemplate the woman.

She did?! Can you quote any of her alleged anti-trans statements please?

ETA: likely earliest derail ever lolz

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/m...ly-unhappy

Here’s a quick one but there’s lots of discussion.  I gather it started when she “liked” a tweet from someone objecting to an article discussing a person menstruating and the tweet made the comment that it should have said woman.  Rowling then went on to defend her position but the trans community still found her views objectionable.  

I don’t think she dislikes trans, she claims she doesn’t, but she is also a bit insensitive to them.  Yes, the label anti trans might be too strong but it’s also apparent she’s not a fan.

I don’t care.  I didn’t read the Harry Potter books to get her views on sexuality so I can ignore her.
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#11

Do not conflate the artist and the art?
(04-15-2024, 08:59 PM)Spooky Wrote: [Image: main-qimg-c95ed56f8f09295082bca5968891bf74-lq]


This was entirely my first thought.

Is that Vlad's house?

NVM, found the artist. It now makes sense.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#12

Do not conflate the artist and the art?
I always thought Dilbert was funny even though Scott Adams was a creatard asshole.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#13

Do not conflate the artist and the art?
(04-15-2024, 03:55 PM)Dexta Wrote: Michael likely-pedo Jackson springs to mind. Me? I can enjoy his music these days, for the most part, although occasionally I get a "CREEP!" moment and have to walk away. Thoughts?

I can admire the music and ignore the person. When I was young, Alice Cooper was a favorite in spite of the content. I mean "Dead Babies was awful in a way, but there was something I liked about him. Same with Michael Jackson. Some songs are great and I listen to them for that. Many people who did great works of art were not actually good people. I accept their art while ignoring their flaws.

Many people have very serious flaws, but produce good art or sports or politics. I can't usually keep track of all that.
Two paths diverged in the woods, and I managed to take both...
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#14

Do not conflate the artist and the art?
(04-15-2024, 10:24 PM)pattylt Wrote:
(04-15-2024, 05:29 PM)Dexta Wrote: She did?! Can you quote any of her alleged anti-trans statements please?

ETA: likely earliest derail ever lolz

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/m...ly-unhappy

Here’s a quick one but there’s lots of discussion.  I gather it started when she “liked” a tweet from someone objecting to an article discussing a person menstruating and the tweet made the comment that it should have said woman.  Rowling then went on to defend her position but the trans community still found her views objectionable.  

I don’t think she dislikes trans, she claims she doesn’t, but she is also a bit insensitive to them.  Yes, the label anti trans might be too strong but it’s also apparent she’s not a fan.

I don’t care.  I didn’t read the Harry Potter books to get her views on sexuality so I can ignore her.

She despises trans people now to the point of obsession. She denies the well documented crimes of the Nazis in targetting trans people and burning all the books in Magnus Hirschfeld's Institut für Sexualwissenschaft. A German court in Cologne has ruled that denying Nazi crimes against trans people is a form of holocaust denial.

JK Rowling has recently threatened to sue a British journalist Rivkah Brown, a Jewish woman, for calling her out on this, forcing her to retract the statement and issue an apology to avoid bankruptcy.

She's the perfect example of how you can't separate art from the artist. She uses her fame to spread hatred against trans people, and is using her fortune to fund court cases that roll back their human rights.
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#15

Do not conflate the artist and the art?
(04-16-2024, 05:14 AM)Cavebear Wrote:
(04-15-2024, 03:55 PM)Dexta Wrote: Michael likely-pedo Jackson springs to mind. Me? I can enjoy his music these days, for the most part, although occasionally I get a "CREEP!" moment and have to walk away. Thoughts?

I can admire the music and ignore the person.  When I was young, Alice Cooper was a favorite in spite of the content.  I mean "Dead Babies was awful in a way, but there was something I liked about him.  Same with Michael Jackson.  Some songs are great and I listen to them for that.  Many people who did great works of art were not actually good people.  I accept their art while ignoring their flaws.  

Many people have very serious flaws, but produce good art or sports or politics.  I can't usually keep track of all that.




Precisely my problem with wokism.  It demands that people be perfect and people are anything but.  I recall when the then-governor of Virgina, Ralph Northam came under fire because 35 years earlier he wore "blackface" at a party and a photo ended up in a yearbook.  You would have thought the Wokies were having their balls ripped off with a chain saw the way they screamed.  But he did not resign.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/a-scan...pened-next

Quote:In 2019, Virginia Governor Ralph Northam faced a scandal involving a racist photograph in his medical school yearbook. But he decided not to resign, and instead focused on reconciliation, becoming one of the most consequential governors in Virginia's history. Margaret Edds' new book, "What the Eyes Can't See," examines Northam's redemption story and Virginia's racial history.



We can't all be perfect our entire lives like these SJWs claim to be.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#16

Do not conflate the artist and the art?
(04-16-2024, 10:57 AM)Mathilda Wrote:
(04-15-2024, 10:24 PM)pattylt Wrote: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/m...ly-unhappy

Here’s a quick one but there’s lots of discussion.  I gather it started when she “liked” a tweet from someone objecting to an article discussing a person menstruating and the tweet made the comment that it should have said woman.  Rowling then went on to defend her position but the trans community still found her views objectionable.  

I don’t think she dislikes trans, she claims she doesn’t, but she is also a bit insensitive to them.  Yes, the label anti trans might be too strong but it’s also apparent she’s not a fan.

I don’t care.  I didn’t read the Harry Potter books to get her views on sexuality so I can ignore her.

She despises trans people now to the point of obsession. She denies the well documented crimes of the Nazis in targetting trans people and burning all the books in Magnus Hirschfeld's Institut für Sexualwissenschaft. A German court in Cologne has ruled that denying Nazi crimes against trans people is a form of holocaust denial.

JK Rowling has recently threatened to sue a British journalist Rivkah Brown, a Jewish woman, for calling her out on this, forcing her to retract the statement and issue an apology to avoid bankruptcy.

She's the perfect example of how you can't separate art from the artist. She uses her fame to spread hatred against trans people, and is using her fortune to fund court cases that roll back their human rights.

I hadn’t paid attention to her views developing a complete anti trans bias.  Too sad.  At first, she was insisting she wasn’t.  I guess if trans groups start calling you out, your real views become known or, perhaps, the attacks forced her into current view.  To me, if you’re actually pro trans community and you get challenged, I’d take the lesson to heart because I’m pro trans people.  Seems she just showed her true colors instead.
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#17

Do not conflate the artist and the art?
(04-16-2024, 04:11 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
(04-16-2024, 05:14 AM)Cavebear Wrote: I can admire the music and ignore the person.  When I was young, Alice Cooper was a favorite in spite of the content.  I mean "Dead Babies was awful in a way, but there was something I liked about him.  Same with Michael Jackson.  Some songs are great and I listen to them for that.  Many people who did great works of art were not actually good people.  I accept their art while ignoring their flaws.  

Many people have very serious flaws, but produce good art or sports or politics.  I can't usually keep track of all that.




Precisely my problem with wokism.  It demands that people be perfect and people are anything but.  I recall when the then-governor of Virgina, Ralph Northam came under fire because 35 years earlier he wore "blackface" at a party and a photo ended up in a yearbook.  You would have thought the Wokies were having their balls ripped off with a chain saw the way they screamed.  But he did not resign.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/a-scan...pened-next

Quote:In 2019, Virginia Governor Ralph Northam faced a scandal involving a racist photograph in his medical school yearbook. But he decided not to resign, and instead focused on reconciliation, becoming one of the most consequential governors in Virginia's history. Margaret Edds' new book, "What the Eyes Can't See," examines Northam's redemption story and Virginia's racial history.



We can't all be perfect our entire lives like these SJWs claim to be.


So I must be having a stroke.  I actually agree with you completely. 

Gonna go make some toast now.
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#18

Do not conflate the artist and the art?
(04-16-2024, 05:46 PM)pattylt Wrote:
(04-16-2024, 10:57 AM)Mathilda Wrote: She despises trans people now to the point of obsession. She denies the well documented crimes of the Nazis in targetting trans people and burning all the books in Magnus Hirschfeld's Institut für Sexualwissenschaft. A German court in Cologne has ruled that denying Nazi crimes against trans people is a form of holocaust denial.

JK Rowling has recently threatened to sue a British journalist Rivkah Brown, a Jewish woman, for calling her out on this, forcing her to retract the statement and issue an apology to avoid bankruptcy.

She's the perfect example of how you can't separate art from the artist. She uses her fame to spread hatred against trans people, and is using her fortune to fund court cases that roll back their human rights.

I hadn’t paid attention to her views developing a complete anti trans bias.  Too sad.  At first, she was insisting she wasn’t.  I guess if trans groups start calling you out, your real views become known or, perhaps, the attacks forced her into current view.  To me, if you’re actually pro trans community and you get challenged, I’d take the lesson to heart because I’m pro trans people.  Seems she just showed her true colors instead.

It's doubling down on your bias. She might have chosen to chill out, but she leaned into it. I know a few people who chilled out, started examining their own biases and grew. Apparently she is not one of those.
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#19

Do not conflate the artist and the art?
(04-16-2024, 08:26 PM)Spooky Wrote:
(04-16-2024, 04:11 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Precisely my problem with wokism.  It demands that people be perfect and people are anything but.  I recall when the then-governor of Virgina, Ralph Northam came under fire because 35 years earlier he wore "blackface" at a party and a photo ended up in a yearbook.  You would have thought the Wokies were having their balls ripped off with a chain saw the way they screamed.  But he did not resign.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/a-scan...pened-next




We can't all be perfect our entire lives like these SJWs claim to be.


So I must be having a stroke.  I actually agree with you completely. 

Gonna go make some toast now.



Have a drink instead.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#20

Do not conflate the artist and the art?
(04-16-2024, 04:11 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
(04-16-2024, 05:14 AM)Cavebear Wrote: I can admire the music and ignore the person.  When I was young, Alice Cooper was a favorite in spite of the content.  I mean "Dead Babies was awful in a way, but there was something I liked about him.  Same with Michael Jackson.  Some songs are great and I listen to them for that.  Many people who did great works of art were not actually good people.  I accept their art while ignoring their flaws.  

Many people have very serious flaws, but produce good art or sports or politics.  I can't usually keep track of all that.




Precisely my problem with wokism.  It demands that people be perfect and people are anything but.  I recall when the then-governor of Virgina, Ralph Northam came under fire because 35 years earlier he wore "blackface" at a party and a photo ended up in a yearbook.  You would have thought the Wokies were having their balls ripped off with a chain saw the way they screamed.  But he did not resign.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/a-scan...pened-next

Quote:In 2019, Virginia Governor Ralph Northam faced a scandal involving a racist photograph in his medical school yearbook. But he decided not to resign, and instead focused on reconciliation, becoming one of the most consequential governors in Virginia's history. Margaret Edds' new book, "What the Eyes Can't See," examines Northam's redemption story and Virginia's racial history.



We can't all be perfect our entire lives like these SJWs claim to be.

I don't object to "woke". It originally meant being aware of discrimination through history. I think that now it more generally means just being aware of history itself. Which would be good. Many people are astonishingly ignorant of basic history. And basic math and basic science, but that is another topic.

I read of people who think The Germans were our allies in WWII (because they are today) against the Russians. I never know whether to laugh or cry...
Two paths diverged in the woods, and I managed to take both...
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#21

Do not conflate the artist and the art?
(04-15-2024, 06:41 PM)brewerb Wrote: I actually like some of L Ron Hubbard's syfy books. The pseudo religion, it's practices and it's followers............. not so much.
Roman Polanski. Loved Chinatown but he's a pedophile and still living in exile from the US as a result. Two things CAN be true at the same time.
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#22

Do not conflate the artist and the art?
(04-17-2024, 01:48 AM)mordant Wrote:
(04-15-2024, 06:41 PM)brewerb Wrote: I actually like some of L Ron Hubbard's syfy books. The pseudo religion, it's practices and it's followers............. not so much.
Roman Polanski. Loved Chinatown but he's a pedophile and still living in exile from the US as a result. Two things CAN be true at the same time.

Agreed but I can understand why separating the two can be difficult for some. I got slapped for liking Manny Pacquiao as a boxer.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#23

Do not conflate the artist and the art?
(04-16-2024, 10:38 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
(04-16-2024, 08:26 PM)Spooky Wrote: So I must be having a stroke.  I actually agree with you completely. 

Gonna go make some toast now.



Have a drink instead.

Don't have to tell me twice...or at all really.  

I need to write down what that wine was the wife bought.  Finished the back half of the bottle last night watching a movie.
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