Three Biggest Objections To The Christian God.

[mordant]

I opened my house to you and you came in, made yourself comfortable, and called ME an intruder. 

Really??

FWIW, Aliza, I have never had the slightest malfunction with you or theists like you. If all theists had your attitude, and found their beliefs binding only on themselves, and refrained from proselytizing, and could engage respectfully as you do, I wouldn't see any significant impediments to human progress coming from theism.

[Cavebear]

Well, you put me in an awkward position.     I could slip around that saying "its not my forum", but, to be technical, yeah.  And there are degrees of "intruderness".  If I kept a list, you would be close to the top of "OK".  If I had a forum myself, you probably wouldn't be there.  But that's because it would be "my forum and my rules".  

Hey, at least I'm honest...    Damn, where's my flak jacket...

I appreciate the honesty, and I'm glad that I've created an environment where you're comfortable being honest... But you did kind of put yourself in an awkward position by saying that you're comfortable taking hospitality from me, but that you would prefer not to reciprocate. I gotta chew on that for a bit, but I don't think I could be that kind of person. 

I opened my house to you and you came in, made yourself comfortable, and called ME an intruder. 

Really??

*Sigh*. OK, yes, first I appreciate the site's existence very much. I've been to atheist sites that were just straight-out atheists/theists insulting each other. And I've been to one with such technical debate about the bible that I couldn't follow it at all. This one feels like a good balance. And besides, I really want to discuss other things, just with fellow atheists.

Second, I didn't know this was your site (meaning only that I've never quite figured out who is really in charge of it. If it truly is yours, then of course you can hardly be an "intruder". I just find it odd that there are theists at a a place called "Atheist Discussion Forum". I would never bother people at a site called "Theist Discussion Forum". There are sites that seem to have specific purposes and I leave those sites to people of those beliefs. I don't go trolling...

Third, if I had my own site, it would be up to me who participates, right? Since this is your site, you can have any rules you want. I just personally think it is odd that theists come here, and I admittedly don't like it when they do. The options of theists are not important to me (when they discuss theism). If a theist posts about politics or social issues without cluttering up the discussion about "God (any God) said so", I don't mind a bit. Any factually-accurate non-religious discussion is just fine with me.

Fourth, you mentioned you were Jewish. And I know the old cliché about "Some of my best friends...". I have posted before that In my case virtually all my friends have been Jewish. It's not that I believe in their deity and religious texts any more than any others. But none have ever tried to convert me to their's. That has made for peaceful and close friendships. They don't tell me I should become a Jew and I don't tell them they should become an Atheist. Neither side discusses it much or is trying to change the other. So we are comfortable around each other.

Fifth, I understand what you mean by "I gotta chew on that for a bit, but I don't think I could be that kind of person". I appreciate anyone who thinks first before reacting. Thought matters. I often read a post to come back to it later after I've had a chance to think about what was posted. Sometimes, I realize my initial impression missed some understanding.

In the same sense that leaving a question in my mind often leads to a solution later, leaving some post unimmediately-answered often leads to a better response. Oh, sure, some posts are easy to answer at once. I don't have much problem discussing politics immediately. But some take more time.

Lastly, I want to make sure you understand this is a friendly reply. I am not upset in any way. We disagree about theists (discussing theistic issues) on the site. But that doesn't change my generally positive opinion of you (and a couple others) personally. As I said, there are degrees of "intruderness". There is a great difference between someone posting "my belief in God helps me" and someone saying "You are going to Hell, you poor damned atheist". LOL!

Thank you for the considered reply, and I hope this more detailed post helps you to understand what I was thinking.

[Cavebear]

What if "world peace" was totally authoritarian?

You put your finger right on it -- I have trouble imagining how this would be accomplished any other way, especially by a single individual. And even if they could do it wisely, would it continue that way? The amount of power required to accomplish that would seem to be inevitably corrupting, especially once the individual died and passed on his or her power. 

Whatever his faults, I think Jesus Christ would be horrified by the things that are now done in his name. And that didn't take thousands of years to go bad. It started not long after he died and within a few hundred years people were being executed for disagreeing about the nature of the Trinity. Perhaps you can argue that, since he was not a "messiah" in the true sense of the word, it was inevitable that his work would fail. But it is hard to find many examples of single individuals who made lasting change. And the most common examples (MLK, for instance) never even achieved the goals they set for themselves in their own lifetimes, never mind what happened afterwards.

And this actually goes to the heart of my objection to the Xian god. He uses his power just like any human would. He's wildly inconsistent, being kind one moment and torturing or killing with abandon the next, demanding irrational  demonstrations of loyalty and raging when he doesn't get his way. He's a father who sends his son to be tortured to death (something he is so proud of, it becomes the primary symbol of his faith). Or he's a so-called Messiah who can't get his own message straight and thinks the failure of his mission is something to build a Mass around. Or he's some kind of weird spiritual being that makes people talk in tongues. Or he's some inexplicable combination of the three. Overally he's either incomprehensible or intolerable and often both. And he's always a he because, well, wouldn't he have to be.

So I fear that anyone with that much power would be inherently untrustworthy and eventually dangerous.

Thanks for the reply. I mostly agree. But I have a question. I'm not sure how to understand "Jesus Christ would be horrified " and " the Xian god. He uses his power just like any human would". Those could be read as assuming each is real or they could be read as "theists say..." I'm guessing from your handle you mean the latter, but a clarification wouldn't hurt.

And sometimes I like to add a small joke to lighten the mood...

A Priest, a Rabbi, and an Atheist walk into a bar. The Atheist stops and says "wait, I'm in the wrong joke"! OK, a little humor never hurts anything...

[Aliza]

I appreciate the honesty, and I'm glad that I've created an environment where you're comfortable being honest... But you did kind of put yourself in an awkward position by saying that you're comfortable taking hospitality from me, but that you would prefer not to reciprocate. I gotta chew on that for a bit, but I don't think I could be that kind of person. 

I opened my house to you and you came in, made yourself comfortable, and called ME an intruder. 

Really??

*Sigh*.  OK, yes, first I appreciate the site's existence very much.  I've been to atheist sites that were just straight-out atheists/theists insulting each other.  And I've been to one with such technical debate about the bible that I couldn't follow it at all.  This one feels like a good balance.  And besides, I really want to discuss other things, just with fellow atheists.  

Second, I didn't know this was your site (meaning only that I've never quite figured out who is really in charge of it.  If it truly is yours, then of course you can hardly be an "intruder".  I just find it odd that there are theists at a a place called "Atheist Discussion Forum".  I would never bother people at a site called "Theist Discussion Forum".  There are sites that seem to have specific purposes and I leave those sites to people of those beliefs.  I don't go trolling...

Third, if I had my own site, it would be up to me who participates, right?  Since this is your site, you can have any rules you want.  I just personally think it is odd that theists come here, and I admittedly don't like it when they do.  The options of theists are not important to me (when they discuss theism).  If a theist posts about politics or social issues without cluttering up the discussion about "God (any God) said so", I don't mind a bit.  Any factually-accurate non-religious discussion is just fine with me.

Fourth, you mentioned you were Jewish.  And I know the old cliché about "Some of my best friends...".  I have posted before that In my case virtually all my friends have been Jewish.  It's not that I believe in their deity and religious texts any more than any others.  But none have ever tried to convert me to their's.  That has made for peaceful and close friendships.  They don't tell me I should become a Jew and I don't tell them they should become an Atheist.  Neither side discusses it much or is trying to change the other.  So we are comfortable around each other.

Fifth, I understand what you mean by "I gotta chew on that for a bit, but I don't think I could be that kind of person".  I appreciate anyone who thinks first before reacting.  Thought matters.  I often read a post to come back to it later after I've had a chance to think about what was posted.  Sometimes, I realize my initial impression missed some understanding.  

In the same sense that leaving a question in my mind often leads to a solution later, leaving some post unimmediately-answered often leads to a better response.  Oh, sure, some posts are easy to answer at once.  I don't have much problem discussing politics immediately.  But some take more time.  

Lastly, I want to make sure you understand this is a friendly reply.  I am not upset in any way.  We disagree about theists (discussing theistic issues) on the site.  But that doesn't change my generally positive opinion of you (and a couple others) personally.  As I said, there are degrees of "intruderness".  There is a great difference between someone posting "my belief in God helps me" and someone saying "You are going to Hell, you poor damned atheist".  LOL!

Thank you for the considered reply, and I hope this more detailed post helps you to understand what I was thinking.

That was a thoughtful reply post, and I genuinely appreciate the tone you took. Thank you for that.

I’ve previously explained in this thread that I created this forum with Mathilda and Dom. There are several motivations that go into why I have continued to run AD despite not being an atheist myself. Religion in concept doesn’t bother me, but I dislike fundamentalism of all stripes. I find Christian fundamentalists to be far more outspoken than fundies of other religions, so that tends to be where my focus is.

My informal observation is that religious people who come to an atheist forum are either here to proselytize or they’re here to understand what atheists think because maybe they’re questioning their religion on some level. It’s not a firm observation, I don’t fall into either camp. – But creating a space for religious discussion that might help someone find their way out of a cult-level, fundamentalist religion is a big part of why this forum exists. Maybe atheism, agnosticism, or deism can be a better fit for them.

Note that you don’t have to participate in religious discussion if that topic bothers you. It's primarily contained to specific areas, namely the board called "Atheism & Theism." I called it that so members would know where to concentrate their discussion about religion and likewise which board to avoid if those topics bother them. 

Provided they are not proselytizing, theists are permitted to post here. They're full members of this forum and they can post anywhere they like, but the coffee house is usually free of the deeply religious people who are here just to proselytize because they find those boards to be a waste of their time. Posting outside of the Atheism & Theism board is a good indication of who is here to talk and meet people, and who is here to push their religion, btw. -But there will be a point where I’m not going to continue to stand for people on this forum bashing others solely because they think differently.

[Aliza]

I opened my house to you and you came in, made yourself comfortable, and called ME an intruder. 

Really??

FWIW, Aliza, I have never had the slightest malfunction with you or theists like you. If all theists had your attitude, and found their beliefs binding only on themselves, and refrained from proselytizing, and could engage respectfully as you do, I wouldn't see any significant impediments to human progress coming from theism.

Thank you so much for the kind words.

[Cavebear]

*Sigh*.  OK, yes, first I appreciate the site's existence very much.  I've been to atheist sites that were just straight-out atheists/theists insulting each other.  And I've been to one with such technical debate about the bible that I couldn't follow it at all.  This one feels like a good balance.  And besides, I really want to discuss other things, just with fellow atheists.  

Second, I didn't know this was your site (meaning only that I've never quite figured out who is really in charge of it.  If it truly is yours, then of course you can hardly be an "intruder".  I just find it odd that there are theists at a a place called "Atheist Discussion Forum".  I would never bother people at a site called "Theist Discussion Forum".  There are sites that seem to have specific purposes and I leave those sites to people of those beliefs.  I don't go trolling...

Third, if I had my own site, it would be up to me who participates, right?  Since this is your site, you can have any rules you want.  I just personally think it is odd that theists come here, and I admittedly don't like it when they do.  The options of theists are not important to me (when they discuss theism).  If a theist posts about politics or social issues without cluttering up the discussion about "God (any God) said so", I don't mind a bit.  Any factually-accurate non-religious discussion is just fine with me.

Fourth, you mentioned you were Jewish.  And I know the old cliché about "Some of my best friends...".  I have posted before that In my case virtually all my friends have been Jewish.  It's not that I believe in their deity and religious texts any more than any others.  But none have ever tried to convert me to their's.  That has made for peaceful and close friendships.  They don't tell me I should become a Jew and I don't tell them they should become an Atheist.  Neither side discusses it much or is trying to change the other.  So we are comfortable around each other.

Fifth, I understand what you mean by "I gotta chew on that for a bit, but I don't think I could be that kind of person".  I appreciate anyone who thinks first before reacting.  Thought matters.  I often read a post to come back to it later after I've had a chance to think about what was posted.  Sometimes, I realize my initial impression missed some understanding.  

In the same sense that leaving a question in my mind often leads to a solution later, leaving some post unimmediately-answered often leads to a better response.  Oh, sure, some posts are easy to answer at once.  I don't have much problem discussing politics immediately.  But some take more time.  

Lastly, I want to make sure you understand this is a friendly reply.  I am not upset in any way.  We disagree about theists (discussing theistic issues) on the site.  But that doesn't change my generally positive opinion of you (and a couple others) personally.  As I said, there are degrees of "intruderness".  There is a great difference between someone posting "my belief in God helps me" and someone saying "You are going to Hell, you poor damned atheist".  LOL!

Thank you for the considered reply, and I hope this more detailed post helps you to understand what I was thinking.

That was a thoughtful reply post, and I genuinely appreciate the tone you took. Thank you for that.

I’ve previously explained in this thread that I created this forum with Mathilda and Dom. There are several motivations that go into why I have continued to run AD despite not being an atheist myself. Religion in concept doesn’t bother me, but I dislike fundamentalism of all stripes. I find Christian fundamentalists to be far more outspoken than fundies of other religions, so that tends to be where my focus is.

My informal observation is that religious people who come to an atheist forum are either here to proselytize or they’re here to understand what atheists think because maybe they’re questioning their religion on some level. It’s not a firm observation, I don’t fall into either camp. – But creating a space for religious discussion that might help someone find their way out of a cult-level, fundamentalist religion is a big part of why this forum exists. Maybe atheism, agnosticism, or deism can be a better fit for them.

Note that you don’t have to participate in religious discussion if that topic bothers you. It's primarily contained to specific areas, namely the board called "Atheism & Theism." I called it that so members would know where to concentrate their discussion about religion and likewise which board to avoid if those topics bother them. 

Provided they are not proselytizing, theists are permitted to post here. They're full members of this forum and they can post anywhere they like, but the coffee house is usually free of the deeply religious people who are here just to proselytize because they find those boards to be a waste of their time. Posting outside of the Atheism & Theism board is a good indication of who is here to talk and meet people, and who is here to push their religion, btw. -But there will be a point where I’m not going to continue to stand for people on this forum bashing others solely because they think differently.

I thank you for understanding my post and POV (in general).

You point about theists coming here are here "to understand what atheists think because maybe they’re questioning their religion on some level" is interesting. While I have never seen a theist change their minds (or atheists either), I agree that some understanding may take place. Sometimes it takes people a long time to alter assumptions.

There are 2 general problems I have with theists here. Mostly that they come here to "convert us wicked atheists". I've never met a theist who cared enough to post who didn't seem determined to "save us all". And it isn't that I doubt their good intent. I've just heard the same stuff so many times before.

But also, that they assume we atheists can't have morals without the advice of a deity. Actually, I tend to say "ethics", as morals seem religious and ethics seem more humanistically-developed. So, I guess if theists read our posts discussing "right/wrong", solutions to social issues, and concerns about people world-wide and realize we are not some sort of evil demons, that is a good thing. Maybe some of them even leave because they decide we are "sort of OK".

I could argue with theists on the forum a lot more than I do. I try to leave them alone; I don't always succeed. Sometimes, claims are so outrageous, I just have to reply. I don't hate them. As Mr T used to say "I pity the fools".

Lastly, I still say that if I ever create an atheist form of my own (and I would need a serious techie to do it), I would be a good bit stricter than you are here. Well, it would, after all, be "my forum". But this is the best one so far...

Andt you have convinced me that you have a pretty well-managed forum with good intentions here. And I can live with that.