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Three Biggest Objections To The Christian God.
#51

Three Biggest Objections To The Christian God.
(04-12-2024, 04:51 AM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote: Jesus was Jewish, and therefore he did fulfill that requirement. 

So was Moe Howard of The Three Stooges.

They were! And just like Jesus, they were not the messiah.
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#52

Three Biggest Objections To The Christian God.
(04-12-2024, 05:21 AM)airportkid Wrote: "He must be a direct male descendant of King David"

This fixation on male ancestry as if it carries any meaning is misguided.  I assume it's based on genetic retention of crucial qualities.

But it fails to reckon with why sexual reproduction emerged as the dominant form of procreation:  it scrambles genes so that parasites and pathogens are more easily defeated.  Successive generations resemble their distant forebears less and less with each generation.

Believing that having King David as a direct line ancestor 30 generations ago makes you possess all the desirable qualities of the original is more or less the same reasoning that homeopathy employs - the greater the dilution the more pronounced the effect.  It's hogwash.

The expectation is that he will inherit his Y-chromosome indirectly from King David. There's no expectation that he will conduct himself just like King David. The Y-chromosome does not make one possess the traits necessary to be the messiah; it just validates the person. 

And we say there are five possible messiahs alive at any moment so the traits, while rare, are not totally unique. Any one of them at any moment can wake up one morning and take it upon themselves to become a world leader and usher in peace across the globe. If one of those five people is successful in accomplishing the tasks, then they're the messiah.
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#53

Three Biggest Objections To The Christian God.
(04-12-2024, 05:21 AM)airportkid Wrote: This fixation on male ancestry as if it carries any meaning is misguided.  I assume it's based on genetic retention of crucial qualities.
A part of abrahamisms ethnocentric pedigree.
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#54

Three Biggest Objections To The Christian God.
(04-12-2024, 09:49 AM)Aliza Wrote: And we say there are five possible messiahs alive at any moment so the traits, while rare, are not totally unique. Any one of them at any moment can wake up one morning and take it upon themselves to become a world leader and usher in peace across the globe. If one of those five people is successful in accomplishing the tasks, then they're the messiah.

No wonder Jews have been waiting for over 2000 years for a messiah; that's one big IF right there.
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#55

Three Biggest Objections To The Christian God.
(04-12-2024, 09:49 AM)Aliza Wrote: The Y-chromosome does not make one possess the traits necessary to be the messiah; it just validates the person.

I don't even know what that means.  Validate the person?  In what manner?

(04-12-2024, 09:49 AM)Aliza Wrote: And we say there are five possible messiahs alive at any moment so the traits, while rare, are not totally unique.

Five seriously undercounts the number of descendants after 30 generations.  At 2 kids apiece per couple after 30 generations there are more than a billion descendants.  At the current world population of 8 billion that makes every 8th person a descendant.  If the so-called "validation" is what makes one a possible messiah, there are over a billion possible messiahs.  And every successive generation increases that proportion.  The likelihood of a genuine messiah emerging grows exponentially.  If sheer ancestry is the sole determinant - which seems to be the case, we should be seeing messiahs in every leadership position by now around the planet.
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#56

Three Biggest Objections To The Christian God.
I'm not sure that genetics applies to characters in establishment myths. The guy in old magic book doesn't have any descendants on earth, and never did.
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#57

Three Biggest Objections To The Christian God.
(04-12-2024, 12:50 PM)airportkid Wrote:
(04-12-2024, 09:49 AM)Aliza Wrote: The Y-chromosome does not make one possess the traits necessary to be the messiah; it just validates the person.

I don't even know what that means.  Validate the person?  In what manner?

(04-12-2024, 09:49 AM)Aliza Wrote: And we say there are five possible messiahs alive at any moment so the traits, while rare, are not totally unique.

Five seriously undercounts the number of descendants after 30 generations.  At 2 kids apiece per couple after 30 generations there are more than a billion descendants.  At the current world population of 8 billion that makes every 8th person a descendant.  If the so-called "validation" is what makes one a possible messiah, there are over a billion possible messiahs.  And every successive generation increases that proportion.  The likelihood of a genuine messiah emerging grows exponentially.  If sheer ancestry is the sole determinant - which seems to be the case, we should be seeing messiahs in every leadership position by now around the planet.

Okay, wait. I said y chromosome. This lineage goes father to son only not father to daughter, even less so from father to daughter to any of her descendants whether they're male or female, and also not from father to adoptive son. 

Yes, the pool of potential Davidic Jewish men is very large, but we're not looking at a billion people. There are only 15.7 million Jews around today. There are 12 tribes (not that most of them know what their tribe is), but let's just throw some loosey-goosey numbers out there and say 1/12 of 15.7 million people are from David's tribe, Judah, so 1.3 million alive today are from Judah. We're only looking at the male population, so 654K are males from Judah. Of course, the Davidic house is a sliver of the tribe of Judah. I have no idea what the population would be, but we're talking numbers like under 654K and not over a billion.

And how do we validate this? Well men who have a family heritage of being from a particular tribe do a DNA test to see if they have the same markers in their y-chromosomes. If they do, it lends credibility to their story. If they don't... then their story is invalidated.

But the big test here is whether the fellow in question actually does the job. If he brings about world peace, -like REAL world peace, not a promise of world peace, and if the entire world recognizes one G-d, we live in a world with open miracles, then the DNA can be assumed cause that guy is the messiah. 

And well done to THAT guy. We all want world peace.
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#58

Three Biggest Objections To The Christian God.
-and all of that sounds batshit crazy. Is it just me, or is the idea that a person doesn't believe in one set of superstitious claims because they believe in some other set of superstitious claims a nonstarter?

In for a penny, in for a pound.
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#59

Three Biggest Objections To The Christian God.
(04-12-2024, 10:46 PM)Rhythmcs Wrote: -and all of that sounds batshit crazy.  Is it just me, or is the idea that a person doesn't believe in one set of superstitious claims because they believe in some other set of superstitious claims a nonstarter?

In for a penny, in for a pound.

Do you really object to someone’s beliefs that cause you no harm even if you think it’s ridiculous?  I object to Christianity because of Christian behavior and their obsession with conversion, including forcing it upon society.

Many other religions are pretty harmless.  Native American shamanic beliefs cause me no grief as well as most sects of Buddhism or Jainism.  I don’t consider their beliefs true but, they also don’t knock on my door or shove it down my throat.  Christianity could take a valuable lesson from them.
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#60

Three Biggest Objections To The Christian God.
(04-12-2024, 03:29 AM)Aliza Wrote:
(04-12-2024, 01:07 AM)Minimalist Wrote: These are the criteria which jews laid out for this messiah asshole to fulfill.


Jesus...like a really shitty ball player, went 0 for 6.  Send his ass to the minors.

@possibletarian I'm quoting this because it's more or less accurate. But assuming Jesus was a real person, he's actually 1 for 7. Jesus was Jewish, and therefore he did fulfill that requirement. 

The Jewish Messiah is just a regular, mortal fellow who has a specific pedigree and either achieves these great deeds, or those deeds are in place at the time he rules, ie: world peace, rebuilds the temple, Jews all following the commandments, everyone serves one G-d. I've more often been taught the messiah accomplishes these tasks, but if someone else accomplishes them and the would-be messiah ends up at the right place at the right time, then I understand that would also qualify. 

The Christians came along and took our concept of Messiah and changed it radically to mean that this person would be a deity, literally G-d's offspring. They tried to retroactively change the heritage requirements and how Jews view genealogy, and they added this "second coming" clause to explain away why none of the events that are required have taken place.... yet. 

Oh, and Jesus was an illegitimate bastard (a mamzer) based on the NT depiction of the circumstances of his birth and that kind of matters in Jewish culture.

Thanks, pretty much what I had read from others  Big Grin

I might do a side by side comparison chart to send to my Christian friends !
Those who ask a lot of questions may seem stupid, but those who don't ask questions stay stupid.
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#61

Three Biggest Objections To The Christian God.
(04-12-2024, 10:46 PM)Rhythmcs Wrote: -and all of that sounds batshit crazy.  Is it just me, or is the idea that a person doesn't believe in one set of superstitious claims because they believe in some other set of superstitious claims a nonstarter?

In for a penny, in for a pound.

Some would call us crazy for participating in this forum, they'd consider it a nonstarter/waste of time and energy.

I don't get bent out of shape until someone starts poking me with their religion. (looks sideways at Steve)
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#62

Three Biggest Objections To The Christian God.
(04-12-2024, 09:32 AM)Aliza Wrote:
(04-12-2024, 04:51 AM)Minimalist Wrote: So was Moe Howard of The Three Stooges.

They were! And just like Jesus, they were not the messiah.

Somewhat funnier, though.  Jesus...as portrayed...was a real nebbish.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#63

Three Biggest Objections To The Christian God.
(04-13-2024, 03:42 AM)Minimalist Wrote:
(04-12-2024, 09:32 AM)Aliza Wrote: They were! And just like Jesus, they were not the messiah.

Somewhat funnier, though.  Jesus...as portrayed...was a real nebbish.

There is a story about this dude, Yeshuah. His mother, Miriam, banged a Roman soldier and her husband Yoseph, was like, "Hey, that's okay. I'll take the baby as my own. Just don't ever let it happen again." And Miriam was like, "OMG, you're such a mensch!" But when the kid got older, he got kicked out of Jewish school (so to speak). The Rabbi had asked him if this woman was beautiful, but he meant her spirit, and Yeshuah was like, "Nah bro, her eyes are screwed up. Maybe if she smiled once in awhile she'd be prettier." and the Rabbi was like, "Get out. Go back to carpentry or whatever the fuck you do for a living. That's more your speed." And rather than learn from the mistake and continue his educational pursuits, he got mad and joined up with some un-educated Jews and some gentiles to teach against the Torah; a horrible sin in the Jewish world. He never even approached the rabbi to talk about letting him study again. Instead, he went around with his new friends blatantly breaking SO MANY Jewish laws right in front of people. They even practiced black magic (optical illusions marketed as real magic). That was kind of the worst of it because people would see his "magic" and be pulled into his bullshit. This guy was a terrible sinner, refusing to cleave to his culture's teachings. He was a disgruntled, sad, pitiful man, and he couldn't even get any sizable Jewish population to be like, "Yeah! This shit is awesome! Money changers? Yeah, fuck 'em!" And for the few that did buy his bullshit, they ABANDONONED his ass after he died, because they saw no world peace, no universal understanding of G-d, no open miracles, and no dead people showed up. I think dead people showing up across the globe would be pretty fucking impressive and I'm sure everyone world-wide would remember such an event if it happened. So yeah, this guy Yeshuah? Not the messiah; also, a bit of a neb.

But this other guy? We'll call him "Saul...." Man, THAT guy had some chutzpah!
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#64

Three Biggest Objections To The Christian God.
I always wondered why the Jewish people did not use the new testament. This explains it, thanks Aliza. What I do want to point out is that Aliza is not trying to push her religion on the rest of us like some who come here. In fact, I am amazed at her tact and restraint while moderating this site. How DID it come about that you are moderating the site? There must be an interesting story about that.
Formerly WiCharlie Sun
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#65

Three Biggest Objections To The Christian God.
(04-13-2024, 01:19 AM)pattylt Wrote:
(04-12-2024, 10:46 PM)Rhythmcs Wrote: -and all of that sounds batshit crazy.  Is it just me, or is the idea that a person doesn't believe in one set of superstitious claims because they believe in some other set of superstitious claims a nonstarter?

In for a penny, in for a pound.

Do you really object to someone’s beliefs that cause you no harm even if you think it’s ridiculous?  I object to Christianity because of Christian behavior and their obsession with conversion, including forcing it upon society.

Many other religions are pretty harmless.  Native American shamanic beliefs cause me no grief as well as most sects of Buddhism or Jainism.  I don’t consider their beliefs true but, they also don’t knock on my door or shove it down my throat.  Christianity could take a valuable lesson from them.
When that person is in the business of telling us how and why some other persons beliefs are ridiculous, yeah.

At any rate, we have one abrahamist talking about other abrahamists, there's no sense in which their abrahamic beliefs have caused no harm.
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#66

Three Biggest Objections To The Christian God.
(04-13-2024, 01:38 PM)Rhythmcs Wrote: When that person is in the business of telling us how and why some other persons beliefs are ridiculous, yeah.

At any rate, we have one abrahamist talking about other abrahamists, there's no sense in which their abrahamic beliefs have caused no harm.

It reminds me of the bon mot, "When you understand why you don't believe in other gods, you'll understand why I don't believe in yours."
On hiatus.
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#67

Three Biggest Objections To The Christian God.
(04-13-2024, 01:19 AM)pattylt Wrote: ... Do you really object to someone’s beliefs that cause you no harm even if you think it’s ridiculous ... ?

The notion that unquestioning belief in something about which there are serious questions can be harmless is itself, to my mind, misguided.  The harms that can arise out of religious belief are legion, and well established.  And they can be unanticipated.  Belief in angels and demons often accompany religious belief.  A fellow pilot, a 99, in her 60s, a woman of significant charm and accomplishment, went to Connecticut to attend a conference.  She had gray hair she kept short.  Standing at the reception desk checking into her hotel a man she'd never met nor known rushed at her from behind and stabbed her in the neck, killing her.  The man, seeing her short gray hair, believed she was his deceased father come back as a demon to haunt him.  In his mind, killing a demon had no legal prohibitions.

Now, that is something of an extreme case, the man had a history of clinically mental disorder, but he was a free man at large in open society, with a delusion that resulted in a fatality.

Say you're considering one of two cars.  Both have many features and are hugely complex.  They are in every important respect identical, but one of the two has a known tendency to suddenly pull to the right.  It can usually be easily overcome, but adds workload to driving it.  No technician has ever been able to figure out how to stop it from doing that.  Which of the two would you consider least likely to cause operating problems?  Of two otherwise identical candidates for a management position, one of whom believes the earth is flat, whom do you hire?

Personally, I do not regard irrational belief of any kind to be "harmless".
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#68

Three Biggest Objections To The Christian God.
(04-13-2024, 12:28 PM)Charladele Wrote: I always wondered why the Jewish people did not use the new testament.  This explains it, thanks Aliza. What I do want to point out is that Aliza is not trying to push her religion on the rest of us like some who come here.  In fact, I am amazed at her tact and restraint while moderating this site.  How DID it come about that you are moderating the site?  There must be an interesting story about that.

I appreciate that. Still, the anti-theists are going hate. Fundamentalism can go from one extreme right to another when people leave religion. 

How did I come to moderate AD? Well, I started AD along with Mathilda and Dom. I met a lot of really great people on the old forum, TTA, and I wasn't ready to let the community go when they shut it down. So I did my part to help us continue here. I set the MyBB boards up and tried to make it similar to TTA. A few years ago, Mathilda was no longer able to run the forum, so I took over from there. I appreciated Dom's continued moderation over the years, but I fear she's not coming back at this point. Thankfully, @Mathilda is around more, so that's awesome. @Revenant77x still logs in from time to time to check in on us. *Waves to Rev*
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#69

Three Biggest Objections To The Christian God.
(04-13-2024, 04:48 PM)airportkid Wrote: The notion that unquestioning belief in something about which there are serious questions can be harmless is itself, to my mind, misguided.  The harms that can arise out of religious belief are legion,

You conflate two things here. Unquestioning or irrational belief is indeed misguided, and can be dangerous. But religious belief is not always unquestioning or irrational* and there are plenty of unquestioning believers who are not religious. 

*I know, I know. Belief in a god is not necessarily rational. But there are plenty of well-reasoned arguments for the existence of god, and beyond that, it is perfectly possible to build a rational belief system based on an unproven basic assumption or hypothesis. For example, that two parallel lines do not intersect....
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#70

Three Biggest Objections To The Christian God.
(04-13-2024, 09:41 PM)atheist_walks_in Wrote:
(04-13-2024, 04:48 PM)airportkid Wrote: The notion that unquestioning belief in something about which there are serious questions can be harmless is itself, to my mind, misguided.  The harms that can arise out of religious belief are legion,

You conflate two things here. Unquestioning or irrational belief is indeed misguided, and can be dangerous. But religious belief is not always unquestioning or irrational* and there are plenty of unquestioning believers who are not religious. 

*I know, I know. Belief in a god is not necessarily rational. But there are plenty of well-reasoned arguments for the existence of god, and beyond that, it is perfectly possible to build a rational belief system based on an unproven basic assumption or hypothesis. For example, that two parallel lines do not intersect....

Not to derail but I've yet to find someone who can argue/debate a god into existence.

However, I'll allow them belief in their mental construct if it helps them make it thru life.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#71

Three Biggest Objections To The Christian God.
(04-13-2024, 11:12 PM)brewerb Wrote: Not to derail but I've yet to find someone who can argue/debate a god into existence.

However, I'll allow them belief in their mental construct if it helps them make it thru life.

Yes, indeed. I said, "rational belief system." Not "reality."
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#72

Three Biggest Objections To The Christian God.
I've been reading some about reformed epistemology on account of the discussion about William Lane Craig in one of the threads. Reformed Epistemology basically sets up a framework in which believing is rational, even if evidence to the contrary weighs against that belief, or is insufficient. The main issue I keep coming back to is to whether being a rationally justified belief isn't something of a low bar to clear in terms of the individual. The fact that someone can be rational in believing something seems different from the belief itself being rational.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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#73

Three Biggest Objections To The Christian God.
(04-13-2024, 01:19 AM)pattylt Wrote:
(04-12-2024, 10:46 PM)Rhythmcs Wrote: -and all of that sounds batshit crazy.  Is it just me, or is the idea that a person doesn't believe in one set of superstitious claims because they believe in some other set of superstitious claims a nonstarter?

In for a penny, in for a pound.

Do you really object to someone’s beliefs that cause you no harm even if you think it’s ridiculous?  I object to Christianity because of Christian behavior and their obsession with conversion, including forcing it upon society.

Many other religions are pretty harmless.  Native American shamanic beliefs cause me no grief as well as most sects of Buddhism or Jainism.  I don’t consider their beliefs true but, they also don’t knock on my door or shove it down my throat.  Christianity could take a valuable lesson from them.

Flat Earth, telekinesis, moon hoax, remote viewing.

All those beliefs are essentially harmless. But if any proponent of those beliefs were to post here they will be questioned robustly. Why should religious beliefs get a buy?
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#74

Three Biggest Objections To The Christian God.
(04-13-2024, 04:48 PM)airportkid Wrote: Personally, I do not regard irrational belief of any kind to be "harmless".

So long as the harm is kept to oneself, why should I care? If you believe aliens are visiting the Earth, or that you have telepathy, that doesn't harm me. If you try to put your Abrahamic beliefs into law, that's a different story.

Not all irrationality carries the same gravitas.
On hiatus.
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#75

Three Biggest Objections To The Christian God.
(04-13-2024, 09:41 PM)atheist_walks_in Wrote:
(04-13-2024, 04:48 PM)airportkid Wrote: The notion that unquestioning belief in something about which there are serious questions can be harmless is itself, to my mind, misguided.  The harms that can arise out of religious belief are legion,

You conflate two things here. Unquestioning or irrational belief is indeed misguided, and can be dangerous. But religious belief is not always unquestioning or irrational* and there are plenty of unquestioning believers who are not religious....

Name one.

Quote:Christianity:
The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that present in humanity because a rib lady was convinced by talking snake to a magic apple. Makes perfect sense.

This isn't one.
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