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Freedom seems to me to be something of a paradox
#1

Freedom seems to me to be something of a paradox
If one is completely free to do as one wishes, one is inevitably riddled with dilemmas about what to do. If, on the other hand, one's choices are drastically constrained, one is free from these dilemmas and merely exists. Option anxiety, I think it is sometimes called. Might this line of thinking perhaps account in part for high rates of criminal (incarceration worthy) recidivism? 

EG: "Boy, I wish I was back in prison, life was so simple there, so few choices, so few responsibilities, the psychological freedom! I miss it so! Maybe I'll go rob a liquor store..."

Any truth to this theory or the deluded ramblings of an inebriated 40 something?
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#2

Freedom seems to me to be something of a paradox
Freedom is just another word for nothin' left to lose
Nothin', don't mean nothin' hon' if it ain't free, no-no



I expect you won't like this reply.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#3

Freedom seems to me to be something of a paradox
Very thought provoking actually, IMO, brewerb..WOOF! Lose everything, all your freedom by being incarcerated, then there's nothing left to lose and you're truly free. I take your post (nice song too - listened to it all) as being in support of my OP I think. Here, I'll take your avatar for walkies, even though it's raining : )
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#4

Freedom seems to me to be something of a paradox
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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#5

Freedom seems to me to be something of a paradox
Good song too Danu IMHO, but doesn't really address the question at hand, I think....true freedom is perhaps an absence of having to make choices - a total lack of freedom?!

The freedom paradox. Neat, I say  Tongue
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#6

Freedom seems to me to be something of a paradox
I'm of the opinion we completely lack the type of freedom most people think they have. It isn't missed. What people suffer from is too much information.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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#7

Freedom seems to me to be something of a paradox
If I look at myself and introspect, I think I "lack freedom" in that my moral compass is the boss of me, and I am forever in conflict between my animalistic greed for sensory pleasure VS moral correctitude. YMMV
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#8

Freedom seems to me to be something of a paradox
(03-30-2024, 09:24 PM)Dānu Wrote: What people suffer from is too much information.

Ignorance is bliss, yet knowledge is essential. Bloody hell I'm on fire! No....no. Drunk though. Last ever piss-up tonight. Going out with a bang watching The Voyage of Charles Darwin on youtube and posting on a relatively obscure internet forum with some of my, dare I say it, friends.
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#9

Freedom seems to me to be something of a paradox
(03-30-2024, 08:13 PM)Dexta Wrote:  Might this line of thinking perhaps account in part for high rates of criminal (incarceration worthy) recidivism? 

EG: "Boy, I wish I was back in prison, life was so simple there, so few choices, so few responsibilities, the psychological freedom! I miss it so! Maybe I'll go rob a liquor store..."

Any truth to this theory or the deluded ramblings of an inebriated 40 something?

There has been studies showing that very long prison sentences in hash environment tend to make people maladapted to a return to civil society as they lose the ability and the skills (if they even had them in the first place since many people go to jail in their youth) necessary to handle a normal autonomous adult life, but this is more in link to trauma than a genuine love for being taken care for. 

Usually, people do like to have some choices, but they can be overwhelmed by them too. I'd say linking this with people genuinely preferring prison is going a bit too far, but one could use this sort of behavior to explain the appeal to authoritarian strongmen who offer simple solutions to big problem and basically tell you "give me power and I'll handle your problems and anxieties".
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#10

Freedom seems to me to be something of a paradox
Could lobotmy be a solution? A bit extreme but still a possible solution.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#11

Freedom seems to me to be something of a paradox
(03-30-2024, 09:57 PM)brewerb Wrote: Could lobotmy be a solution? A bit extreme but still a possible solution.


The difference between changing peoples' minds about behaviour using lobotomy VS psychotherapy is...moot. I mean, don't get me wrong I'd love to take a scalpel to some people's grey matter for a...er...no
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#12

Freedom seems to me to be something of a paradox
I know somebody who professes to enjoy eating sliced sheep's brain fried in garlic on toast. A "braver" man than I.
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#13

Freedom seems to me to be something of a paradox
(03-30-2024, 10:03 PM)Dexta Wrote:
(03-30-2024, 09:57 PM)brewerb Wrote: Could lobotmy be a solution? A bit extreme but still a possible solution.


The difference between changing peoples' minds about behaviour using lobotomy VS psychotherapy is...moot. I mean, don't get me wrong I'd love to take a scalpel to some people's grey matter for a...er...no

The lobotomized certainly don't worry about freedoms or choices.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#14

Freedom seems to me to be something of a paradox
(03-30-2024, 10:06 PM)brewerb Wrote:
(03-30-2024, 10:03 PM)Dexta Wrote: The difference between changing peoples' minds about behaviour using lobotomy VS psychotherapy is...moot. I mean, don't get me wrong I'd love to take a scalpel to some people's grey matter for a...er...no

The lobotomized certainly don't worry about freedoms or choices.

You think I should be lobotomised? I don't think you can elect to have that done with the NHS....like cosmetic surgery. Perhaps a private surgeon.
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#15

Freedom seems to me to be something of a paradox
(03-30-2024, 10:18 PM)Dexta Wrote:
(03-30-2024, 10:06 PM)brewerb Wrote: The lobotomized certainly don't worry about freedoms or choices.

You think I should be lobotomised? I don't think you can elect to have that done with the NHS....like cosmetic surgery. Perhaps a private surgeon.

bold mine: I didn't say you should be. It's just an alternative that solves one part of the dilemma.

I don't know of any country where it is still performed. If someone really wanted one my guess is that they'd have to go black market.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#16

Freedom seems to me to be something of a paradox
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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#17

Freedom seems to me to be something of a paradox
The first 10 seconds of this clip says it all.


Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#18

Freedom seems to me to be something of a paradox
(03-30-2024, 08:13 PM)Dexta Wrote: If one is completely free to do as one wishes, one is inevitably riddled with dilemmas about what to do. If, on the other hand, one's choices are drastically constrained, one is free from these dilemmas and merely exists. 

Option anxiety, I think it is sometimes called. Might this line of thinking perhaps account in part for high rates of criminal (incarceration worthy) recidivism? 

This experience is a real thing, though I don't often hear it being discussed.  In many European countries (Italy comes to mind), shoppers visit a grocery a fraction of the size of a typical American grocery and come away with everything they need.  When some Americans who spend significant time abroad return home, they experience shock at the magnitude of options in the grocery.  Not everyone experiences the same sort of shock, but it isn't uncommon.

I'm ignorant of the statistics on recidivism, but this idea of option anxiety is certainly real.  My guess is that natural selection plays a large role in how options affect our ability to make decisions, but I'm no anthropologist.  I appreciate Buddhist ideas that are applicable here, though it can be a tremendous challenge.
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#19

Freedom seems to me to be something of a paradox
I'm not sure that recidivism is really an issue of people choosing to be criminals so much as a state choosing to criminalize those peoples existence from any number of angles.

....but...that other thing.......They™ have to stock more stuff than they know the consumer will (ultimately) choose. If I want to sell a watermelon, I can never just put the watermelon on the table. I have to put two on the table. I may know that I only have one watermelon customer - but I also know that my watermelon customer is more likely to forego watermelon than grab the only one for sale. So it makes sense for me to put two up there, even if I throw the other one away, because 50% is more than nothing. I've been known to buy small shitty melons from the store to stock with my melons - to move those melons - scrape up 10%

I also know that the average customer never even eats the watermelon. The whole thing is theater.
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#20

Freedom seems to me to be something of a paradox
(04-06-2024, 11:29 PM)The Paladin Wrote: I'm ignorant of the statistics on recidivism, but this idea of option anxiety is certainly real.  My guess is that natural selection plays a large role in how options affect our ability to make decisions, but I'm no anthropologist.  I appreciate Buddhist ideas that are applicable here, though it can be a tremendous challenge.

I doubt it. I mean there might be some idiots who wants to return to prison but recidivism is a systemic problem not a moral failing or anxiety over too many choices.

The United States has a current recidivism rate of 70% within 5 years (U.S. Prison Population, 2019). This means that, within 5 years of their release, 70% of prisoners will have reoffended. In comparison, Norway has one of the lowest recidivism rates in the world at 20% within 5 years.

Obviously people in US aren't degenerates and those in Norway saints - it's not individuals moral character at play that explains such large difference but I suspect focus on punitiveness vs focus on reintegration and most probably host of other factors inherent to the system in both countries.
There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.


Socrates.
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#21

Freedom seems to me to be something of a paradox
There's an economic incentive to criminalize and process in the us. The prison lobby is stronk.
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#22

Freedom seems to me to be something of a paradox
(04-07-2024, 06:38 AM)Rhythmcs Wrote: There's an economic incentive to criminalize and process in the us.  The prison lobby is stronk.

This makes a lot of sense, particularly if you think about how difficult it is for people once they are released.  Getting back in is much easier than staying out.  Society in general seems to want to keep prisons full.
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#23

Freedom seems to me to be something of a paradox
That's the success of the prison lobby. It encourages us, the un-incarcerated..to contend that there's some fundamental difference between us and the incarcerated so as to soften the blow of the profitably punitive measures it hopes to enact...against "them". Nobody but the prison owner wants to keep prisons full.
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