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God Doesn't Exist

God Doesn't Exist
(4 hours ago)SteveII Wrote: In regards to God's tangible effects on Christians who take their faith seriously, in no apparent order:

Forgiveness,

hope,

a changed life (changes in attitudes, desires),

the conveniently named Fruits of the Spirit:
    (love,
     joy,
     peace,
     patience,
     kindness,
     goodness,
     faithfulness,
     gentleness
     and self-control),

a presence (supernatural comfort and confidence),

guidance,

wisdom,

humility,

compassion for others,

and a desire to share their experience.

You left out bigotry, jealousy, sanctimony, hypocrisy, uncontrolled rage, vengefulness, unfounded belief, prejudice, greed, and obdurance.

But then I suppose you'd claim those didn't come from a god, only the favorable list did, and are you contending that atheists are incapable of all of those qualities?

As evidence of tangible effects that only a god could produce, that is pathetically infantile.  Can't you do better than that?
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God Doesn't Exist
(4 hours ago)SteveII Wrote:
(Today, 05:08 AM)airportkid Wrote: Like experience, evidence in and of itself is meaningless; it's its interpretation.  Anything and everything is evidence, evidence of what is the pertinent question.

I don't think that is right at all. You seem to be conflating 'facts' with 'evidence'. Evidence refers to pieces of information or facts that help us establish the truth of something. Evidence is not a concrete thing, it is a property of a thing (object, experience or other fact) in relation to a truth claim. It is fundamentally an abstraction. Whether an object, experience, or fact is evidence may rely on some interpretation, but most evidence has intrinsic qualities to it. For example, footprints in the sand may not tell you who walked by, but it surely tells you that somebody walked by.

An experience (consistent or otherwise) on the other hand is a concrete thing that certainly has the property of establishing the truth of something else--in other words, serves as evidence.

Quote:To the believer in a supernatural god, the beauty of a sunset, the symmetry of a daisy, the absence of rain during a Sunday picnic, that Beatrix Lushly in your 11th grade chemistry class said yes to a date is often interpreted as a godly intervention.  But such interpretations are incompetent, mostly because they fail to account for more likely interpretations.

I'm not sure I know any Christians who would say that no rain for the Sunday picnic is evidence of God. At the very least we would be thankful, at most, we might give credit to God for the nice weather in recognition of his ultimate sovereignty of such things, but that it not the same thing as "interpreted as a godly intervention." That implies that there would not have been nice weather except for God's intervention. The nature of such 'miracles' is that there is absolutely no way to know if indeed it was or it was a convenient weather pattern that worked our nicely for the picnic.

Quote:At no time in all human history has anyone indicated, incontestably, that such and such event, feeling or emergence could have only been by divine cause.  It's claimed all the time, but never incontestably.  There are always alternative possible explanations that do not invoke the supernatural.

And that prompts a crucial question:  what have WLC or theists in these threads experienced that is incontestably divine?  What is their god's tangible effect on this earth?  Absent that god, what would this earth look like?  What would this earth look like as indicated by incontestably evaluated evidence?

Should an actual answer emerge, it would be earthshaking, and not hidden in the postings of an internet forum.

In regards to God's tangible effects on Christians who take their faith seriously, in no apparent order: Forgiveness, hope, a changed life (changes in attitudes, desires), the conveniently named Fruits of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control), a presence (supernatural comfort and confidence), guidance, wisdom, humility, compassion for others, and a desire to share their experience. I'm sure I missed some. I don't know what 'incontestable' would even mean for an internal personal experience.  You either believe the person or you don't--its the nature of a personal experience.

Regarding your "Absent that god, what would this earth look like?" Well, starting with the big picture, why would there be anything at all? You have no account of why there is something rather than nothing. You have no account why the reality we have is conducive to the formation of matter let along life. You have no account of how life sprung from non-life. You have no good account of the diversity of life on this planet. And you have no account how consciousness came about. Even if you had an inkling of an account, they wouldn't provide intrinsic value and purpose--an interesting universal desire we all have given that we evolved to simply survive.

But if you mean how would people behave differently, well, the 20th Century would be a good place to start to see what people are capable of when they make themselves to be God. There is a reason Richard Dawkins recently acknowledged he was happy identifying as a cultural Christian, "is at home in the Christian ethos" and it's "a fundamentally decent religion" because it is dawning on him just how much western society owes to the influence of Christianity.

Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy Archive/Abstract Objects: https://plato.stanford.edu/archivES/FALL...t-objects/
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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God Doesn't Exist
(6 hours ago)pattylt Wrote: Steve, the point is that no one comes to Christianity before hearing about it.

(4 hours ago)SteveII Wrote: Except the Muslims having dreams about Jesus...

Probably because Jesus is considered a prophet in Islam.  Muslims living in Western countries would also be inundated by Jesus-talk, the same way that non-believers are constantly hearing Jesus this, Jesus that.  The main difference is that Muslims are already believers, and more likely to buy into a Jesus dream.

For the record, I've never dreamt of Jesus (or any other religious figure, for that matter).
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God Doesn't Exist
(1 hour ago)Astreja Wrote:
(6 hours ago)pattylt Wrote: Steve, the point is that no one comes to Christianity before hearing about it.

(4 hours ago)SteveII Wrote: Except the Muslims having dreams about Jesus...

Probably because Jesus is considered a prophet in Islam.  Muslims living in Western countries would also be inundated by Jesus-talk, the same way that non-believers are constantly hearing Jesus this, Jesus that.  The main difference is that Muslims are already believers, and more likely to buy into a Jesus dream.

For the record, I've never dreamt of Jesus (or any other religious figure, for that matter).

There are people who have dreamt of other religious figures than Jesus too. I heard of Christians having visitation from the Egyptian goddess Isis and ditching Christianity in favor of neo-pagan kemetism. Dreams and hallucinations have been found to be very, very strongly culturally influenced and Christianity iconography and mythology is pervasive in pretty much every corner of the world. In late 19th century China there famously was the man who thought he was Jesus' divine brother after having a dream of him while in the midst of a deep depression. His following actions would lead to a rebellion against the Qing emperor that would result in short of 30 million dead people.
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