Is Prayer Ethical?

[airportkid]

Right off the bat, if a prayer succeeds:  an outcome happened BECAUSE a prayer asked for it (it wasn't a coincidence), science as a method can't work.  Events aren't taking place in accordance with laws derived from scientific method, they're taking place in accordance with the random whim of diverse and uncoordinated desires.  Repeatability of experiment would be impossible, if prayer actually had an effect.

Prayer is invoked precisely because a desired outcome is believed to be beyond the reach of nature to obtain.  If an outcome can be obtained by capabilities we can control, we don't pray, we just take the necessary actions on our own.  Our own actions, of course, are always taken in accordance with established natural laws; that's how we know they'll succeed.

Thus, to make a prayer for something beyond the reach of nature is to kick away the underpinnings of what we know DOES work.  We can do science, or we can do prayer in pursuit of desired outcomes; we cannot do both.

Prayer is lazy.  It is an investment of unchallenging mental effort of only a few minutes (if even that long) whose chief effect is to make the person praying feel self righteous about having done something noble.  Its sole benefit is emotional salve for the supplicant; it achieves zero benefit outside of that.  So it's selfish, in addition to being lazy.

Finally, consider that a prayer is directing a god to act outside its plan.  It also presumes to inform a god of something it doesn't already know.  This is not just absurd but insane, particularly when done repeatedly trying to secure the same outcome.

What's ethical?  Use the time spent praying instead to learn and acquire capabilities that we know DO work.  Resorting to prayer is unethical if that's the only effort undertaken.

[Dexta]

Short answer, IMO, no.

[Aliza]

Prayer is neither ethical nor unethical. It's just a way for people to console themselves. That's okay. Sometimes we need to console ourselves.

Now whether a person fails contribute to the scientific community because they're spending their time praying does not affect the ethics of their prayers. And I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people who do both.

[Dexta]

Prayer is neither ethical nor unethical. It's just a way for people to console themselves. That's okay. Sometimes we need to console ourselves.

Now whether a person fails contribute to the scientific community because they're spending their time praying does not affect the ethics of their prayers. And I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people who do both.

But what about the "absolves responsibility" implication of prayer? To illustrate, a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses knocked on my door a few years ago and I said I was concerned about global warming. One of them replied "that's the beauty of it, we don't need to worry about stuff like that because God's in control!" Fuck. That. Jazz.

[Aliza]

Prayer is neither ethical nor unethical. It's just a way for people to console themselves. That's okay. Sometimes we need to console ourselves.

Now whether a person fails contribute to the scientific community because they're spending their time praying does not affect the ethics of their prayers. And I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people who do both.

But what about the "absolves responsibility" implication of prayer? To illustrate, a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses knocked on my door a few years ago and I said I was concerned about global warming. One of them replied "that's the beauty of it, we don't need to worry about stuff like that because God's in control!" Fuck. That. Jazz.

*shrugs*

So a couple of Jehovah's Winesses think prayer is a viable solution. So what? There's a reason their movement remains so small.

[brewerb]

Prayer is neither ethical nor unethical. It's just a way for people to console themselves. That's okay. Sometimes we need to console ourselves.

Now whether a person fails contribute to the scientific community because they're spending their time praying does not affect the ethics of their prayers. And I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people who do both.

But what about the "absolves responsibility" implication of prayer? To illustrate, a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses knocked on my door a few years ago and I said I was concerned about global warming. One of them replied "that's the beauty of it, we don't need to worry about stuff like that because God's in control!" Fuck. That. Jazz.

Why would you expect them to be responsible to begin with?

[Dexta]

But what about the "absolves responsibility" implication of prayer? To illustrate, a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses knocked on my door a few years ago and I said I was concerned about global warming. One of them replied "that's the beauty of it, we don't need to worry about stuff like that because God's in control!" Fuck. That. Jazz.

Why would you expect them to be responsible to begin with?

Maybe I'm a just a goodie two shoes and am just projecting, but don't decent, reasonable people feel it is our RESPONSIBILITY do what they can to try and make the world a better place for one and all (eg: by not having an enormous carbon footprint, putting out the recycling, voting with our conscience etc etc etc)?

[Dexta]

But what about the "absolves responsibility" implication of prayer? To illustrate, a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses knocked on my door a few years ago and I said I was concerned about global warming. One of them replied "that's the beauty of it, we don't need to worry about stuff like that because God's in control!" Fuck. That. Jazz.

*shrugs*

So a couple of Jehovah's Winesses think prayer is a viable solution. So what? There's a reason their movement remains so small.

Yeah, I bet they're the only two theists on the planet who think like that. 

[Aliza]

Why would you expect them to be responsible to begin with?

Maybe I'm a just a goodie two shoes and am just projecting, but don't decent, reasonable people feel it is our RESPONSIBILITY do what they can to try and make the world a better place for one and all (eg: by not having an enormous carbon footprint, putting out the recycling, voting with our conscience etc etc etc)?

You are not going to convince everyone. You're just not! When in human history has 100% of the population agreed on anything? Like, literally anything? There are dipshits who think the earth is flat for fuck's sake. I'm sure we have dipshits who think the sky is green, and the grass is blue.

If you can get a sizable chunk of the population to agree and we can get shit done, then don't worry about the nut cakes until they become an actual problem. In fact, paying them any mind at all empowers them.

[epronovost]

Why would you expect them to be responsible to begin with?

Maybe I'm a just a goodie two shoes and am just projecting, but don't decent, reasonable people feel it is our RESPONSIBILITY do what they can to try and make the world a better place for one and all (eg: by not having an enormous carbon footprint, putting out the recycling, voting with our conscience etc etc etc)?

There is only one thing more terrible than idiots; it's idiots who tries to do things. I am paraphrasing here a famous saying by a German general, but the gist of it is that you probably don't want the people who genuinely believe in the power of prayers above everything else to solve problems to suddenly start doing stuff. It's likely that these individual have very little judgement or critical thinking skills required to solve problems. Them participating would basically be "in the way". If you can keep them busy doing basically nothing but reassuring themselves through prayers or other rituals, you can keep them from interfering in the actual solution.

[Minimalist]

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[TheGentlemanBastard]

Prayer is no more unethical than talking to any imaginary friend.

[brewerb]

Why would you expect them to be responsible to begin with?

Maybe I'm a just a goodie two shoes and am just projecting, but don't decent, reasonable people feel it is our RESPONSIBILITY do what they can to try and make the world a better place for one and all (eg: by not having an enormous carbon footprint, putting out the recycling, voting with our conscience etc etc etc)?

Of course they do. But then the JW's (and others) perceive a different world, a world that can be taken away or changed based on a whim.

[no one]

I would have to concur with our Lady Peacock, prayer has no lines in the play of ethics. The act of prayer in and of itself is neither pure, or corrupt. And even though prayer is absolute nonsense, what one prays for can be honorably noble or unscruplously immoral.

[Thumpalumpacus]

[Inkubus]

Possibly my favorite Carlin jibe:  

'What's the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and fuck up Your Plan?'

[pattylt]

I miss him

[Minimalist]

Him and Hitchens.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I miss him

Him and Hitchens.

We need more akin to both of them, especially these days. It's a target-rich environment, but there seems to be a lack of spitback. Either would troll the shit out of the fascists running riot everywhere, I think.

[Minimalist]

<sigh>   The Wokie cancel culture would harass the shit out of both of them.

[emjay]

I miss him

Him and Hitchens.

We need more akin to both of them, especially these days. It's a target-rich environment, but there seems to be a lack of spitback. Either would troll the shit out of the fascists running riot everywhere, I think.

There's always Ricky Gervais; he's the most outspoken atheist I can think of who has somehow never managed to get himself cancelled... the guy must have nine lives. Also Stephen Fry has a lot to say but says it more politely I think. Personally I don't usually watch people for their atheist/antitheist views, because I don't want to be reminded more than I have to be of the stupidity of religion - it's just depressing to me - but at the same time I do recognise and appreciate what they do, with their outspoken pushback against religion. So yeah, I agree with you we need more people like that.

[no one]

....or, less asshats pushing their ridiculously preposterous nonsense.

[emjay]

....or, less asshats pushing their ridiculously preposterous nonsense.

That would be better but sadly we live in a world as if overrun by junkies high on the fantasy of living forever. It's very depressing to think about.

[Thumpalumpacus]

We need more akin to both of them, especially these days. It's a target-rich environment, but there seems to be a lack of spitback. Either would troll the shit out of the fascists running riot everywhere, I think.

There's always Ricky Gervais; he's the most outspoken atheist I can think of who has somehow never managed to get himself cancelled... the guy must have nine lives. Also Stephen Fry has a lot to say but says it more politely I think. Personally I don't usually watch people for their atheist/antitheist views, because I don't want to be reminded more than I have to be of the stupidity of religion - it's just depressing to me - but at the same time I do recognise and appreciate what they do, with their outspoken pushback against religion. So yeah, I agree with you we need more people like that.

I was bemoaning Carlin's absence at this political juncture. His atheism doesn't matter to me. His insight does.

[emjay]

There's always Ricky Gervais; he's the most outspoken atheist I can think of who has somehow never managed to get himself cancelled... the guy must have nine lives. Also Stephen Fry has a lot to say but says it more politely I think. Personally I don't usually watch people for their atheist/antitheist views, because I don't want to be reminded more than I have to be of the stupidity of religion - it's just depressing to me - but at the same time I do recognise and appreciate what they do, with their outspoken pushback against religion. So yeah, I agree with you we need more people like that.

I was bemoaning Carlin's absence at this political juncture. His atheism doesn't matter to me. His insight does.

Sorry I got the wrong end of the stick.