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Requirements for a Prophecy
#51

Requirements for a Prophecy
(03-06-2024, 07:32 PM)Jarsa Wrote: If I just tell him that the prophecy needs to be specific, there's going to be another argument over semantics. I need sort of a set of conditions, like an assessment that the prophecy needs to pass, so there is no room for arguments.

There's probably articles on the subject at infidels.org.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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#52

Requirements for a Prophecy
(03-06-2024, 07:30 PM)pattylt Wrote:
(03-06-2024, 07:24 PM)airportkid Wrote: I'd say that as a coarse rule of thumb anytime you share information you believe would astound everyone, and no one is, it'd be a good idea to ask yourself why, rather than immediately brand everyone an idiot.

Just like many Christian’s, Muslims can not grasp why people aren’t as enamored of the Quran as much as they are.

Maybe because it is a pile of shit....just like the bible?
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#53

Requirements for a Prophecy
(03-06-2024, 07:02 PM)pattylt Wrote: I remember a Muslim pushing the statement in the Quran about a baby starting as a clot.  It wasn’t a prophesy but “scientific information” known before science arose.

I just shrugged my shoulders and pointed out that’s exactly what an early miscarriage looks like and I’m pretty sure the women knew it….they passed a clot.  The Muslim was rather dejected that I wasn’t amazed by the Quran.

And it isn't even an original observation.  The "clot" observation was recorded in the work of the Greek physician Galen 400 years prior to the writing of the Quran.
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#54

Requirements for a Prophecy
(03-06-2024, 11:23 PM)Astreja Wrote:
(03-06-2024, 07:02 PM)pattylt Wrote: I remember a Muslim pushing the statement in the Quran about a baby starting as a clot.  It wasn’t a prophesy but “scientific information” known before science arose.

I just shrugged my shoulders and pointed out that’s exactly what an early miscarriage looks like and I’m pretty sure the women knew it….they passed a clot.  The Muslim was rather dejected that I wasn’t amazed by the Quran.

And it isn't even an original observation.  The "clot" observation was recorded in the work of the Greek physician Galen 400 years prior to the writing of the Quran.

Shhhhh, don’t tell the Muslims that!  Chuckle
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#55

Requirements for a Prophecy
(03-06-2024, 04:31 AM)Charlie24 Wrote: For example, when Moses and the Hebrews came to the waters in the wilderness, the waters were bitter and couldn't be consumed.

God told Moses to cut down a tree near the water and cast it into the water, when he did the waters became sweet.

The tree represented the Tree Christ was crucified on, through His sacrifice for our sins He has given us life as the water gave them life.

There are many types and shadows ot Christ in the Old Testament. I think one day when I get time I'll start an thread and point them out.
Yes, at the Bible institute I learned all about typology and understand what you're talking about, although to modern ears it probably would make more sense to call them "prototypes" rather than "types".

I also understand that nowhere in the Bible does it place this interpretation on the tree; it is presented rather more like just magic results because god said to do it. Sure, anyone in the Christian era trying to understand what (if anything) the tree symbolized would tend to say, "eureka! I know! it refers to the cross!". But I prefer not assume so much (indeed, no more than absolutely necessary, and preferably nothing at all). In any case, the following verse explains it well enough -- "I am the Lord that heals you". In the midst of bitterness god makes sweetness. That seems sufficient to explain the intent of the symbolism. It also makes sense in the context of the state of medicine in that era, which would come from things like tree bark and plant leaves.

The whole point of framing Christianity as an evolution of Judaism was the common belief in the ancient world that "nothing new can possibly be true -- we'd already know about it". Rather than start a brand spanking new religion, they claimed to fulfill a much more ancient one, which addressed the accusation of them coming up with some (presumed to be made-up) "new thing". So it was terribly important for the authors of the NT and the early church fathers to see what they needed to see in the OT passages they cited (and sometimes even misquoted to shift the meaning in their direction). To reinterpret the OT to fit the mythos they were building around Jesus.

All of this disintegrates when you read the OT without preconceptions in terms of what it actually says and in terms of what Judaism understood it to say (it's their holy book, after all). Rabbis a hundred years before Christ did not read these passages as messianic. Rabbis 500 years before Christ did not do so. A thousand years before Christ, probably only fragments of what became the Torah even existed; the oldest dating for canonical OT passages that I'm aware of was Psalm 29, somewhere between 10th and 12th centuries BCE.

The Jews always understood the Messiah to be an actual king from the reinstated line of David, whose purpose was to gather Jews back to Israel (not preach to ones already there) and restore the national glory of Israel. AND all this was supposed to happen at the End of Days. Christians reinterpreted / spiritualized the original concept of a Messiah to fit either the ministry of Jesus or, more likely, the evolved mythos of Jesus and the dogma of the porto-orthodox Christians.
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#56

Requirements for a Prophecy
Ambrose says:
PROPHECY, n. The art and practice of selling one's credibility for future delivery.
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#57

Requirements for a Prophecy
(03-06-2024, 02:29 AM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(03-06-2024, 02:03 AM)Jarsa Wrote: A Muslim friend of mine is putting together a doc with Islamic prophecies. I told him I would convert if he could give me a prophecy that has become fulfilled but isn't too vague. What are some requirements for the prophecies that I could tell him, so that it would be valid evidence for the existence of a god?

I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree, but I can tell you for sure if you can't find the faith to believe this one verse in Scripture, you will go to your grave without knowing anything about God.

Psalm 138:2

"I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name."

God has placed His Word (The Holy Bible) above His name. That is what He has given us to know Him, it is the path to knowing His existence and having a relationship with Him.

Without His Word, we have nothing!

Again with the proselytizing. Stop it!
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#58

Requirements for a Prophecy
Ingersoll prophecized about Charlie.

[Image: robert-green-ingersoll-575242.jpg]
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#59

Requirements for a Prophecy
A partial list of failed bible prophecies.

https://blackjeezus.wordpress.com/2010/0...hecy-fail/

I especially liked this comment by the author.

Quote:Is anyone else starting to notice that Isaiah is about as good at prophecy as Britney Spears is at taxidermy?
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#60

Requirements for a Prophecy
(03-06-2024, 05:42 AM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(03-06-2024, 05:33 AM)Dānu Wrote: Charly, no offense, but the last thing this world needs is overconfident morons like you plastering the world with the idiocy they are too stupid and ignorant and deluded to recognize as such.

I realize that, but the subject came up and I intend to follow it through.

I don't like for something to rise up in conversation and not explain it.

We certainly don't mind if you don't.  In fact, we'd rather you don't.  Deadpan Coffee Drinker
“Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. 
Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.”
― Napoleon Bonaparte
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#61

Requirements for a Prophecy
While on the subject of prophetic fuckups...how about these that the Holy Horseshitters simply invented?

Quote:[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.4)]Matthew 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value.[/color]


Jeremiah made no such prophecy. The words “30 pieces of silver” are actually from Zechariah, and they had nothing to do with any forthcoming Messiah.

[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.4)]Matthew 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?[/color]

There is no Old Testament passage that Jesus can be alluding to here.

[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.4)]Matthew 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.[/color]

There is no such Old Testament prophecy requiring the Messiah to be a Nazarene.

[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.4)]John 7:38 Jesus said, “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”[/color]

There is no Old Testament scripture that says what Jesus is saying here.

[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.4)]Luke 24:46 Thus it is written and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day.[/color]

There is no prophecy requiring the Messiah to rise from the dead in three days.


You know..... it almost looks as if the asswipes were just making shit up!

"Inerrant scripture," indeed!
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#62

Requirements for a Prophecy
(03-06-2024, 06:02 AM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(03-06-2024, 05:54 AM)Cavebear Wrote: Charlie, is there anything you believe that is not specifically stated in the Christian bible?  I mean, if there is something not in there, do you agree with it ever?

Every morning I have 2-3 cups of coffee, I don't think that's in Scripture but I believe the coffee is real.

As far as the way I am to conduct myself in this life, it's all found in the Scripture, nothing missing at all.

I'm thinking that is more important than anything in this world, it determines my destiny in future infinity.

So pi = exactly 3.0, dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time, and the geological layers were caused by the great flood?
A bully hides his fears with fake bravado. That is the opposite of self-assertiveness.
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#63

Requirements for a Prophecy
Even if there were a dozen "hitting the nail on the head" unambiguous spot on "prophesies" in the Quran it wouldn't mean god is real, to me in any case, just that the author made some lucky or perhaps even wise predictions about what might likely happen in the future.
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#64

Requirements for a Prophecy
(03-06-2024, 05:42 AM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(03-06-2024, 05:33 AM)Dānu Wrote: Charly, no offense, but the last thing this world needs is overconfident morons like you plastering the world with the idiocy they are too stupid and ignorant and deluded to recognize as such.

I realize that, but the subject came up and I intend to follow it through.

I don't like for something to rise up in conversation and not explain it.

If you could actually explain anything factually rather than in strictly biblical terms, we might consider your thoughts better. But I don't think you can actually think "factually". At least, I haven't seen any evidence of it. But give it a try...
A bully hides his fears with fake bravado. That is the opposite of self-assertiveness.
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#65

Requirements for a Prophecy
(03-09-2024, 10:23 AM)Dexta Wrote: Even if there were a dozen "hitting the nail on the head" unambiguous spot on "prophesies" in the Quran it wouldn't mean god is real, to me in any case, just that the author made some lucky or perhaps even wise predictions about what might likely happen in the future.

Or, far more likely, such "predictions" were made after the events had happened.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#66

Requirements for a Prophecy
I love those, especially when the later information the "prophets" tried to launder turns out to be incorrect.
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