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Requirements for a Prophecy
#1

Requirements for a Prophecy
A Muslim friend of mine is putting together a doc with Islamic prophecies. I told him I would convert if he could give me a prophecy that has become fulfilled but isn't too vague. What are some requirements for the prophecies that I could tell him, so that it would be valid evidence for the existence of a god?
Gandalf 
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#2

Requirements for a Prophecy
(03-06-2024, 02:03 AM)Jarsa Wrote: A Muslim friend of mine is putting together a doc with Islamic prophecies. I told him I would convert if he could give me a prophecy that has become fulfilled but isn't too vague. What are some requirements for the prophecies that I could tell him, so that it would be valid evidence for the existence of a god?

I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree, but I can tell you for sure if you can't find the faith to believe this one verse in Scripture, you will go to your grave without knowing anything about God.

Psalm 138:2

"I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name."

God has placed His Word (The Holy Bible) above His name. That is what He has given us to know Him, it is the path to knowing His existence and having a relationship with Him.

Without His Word, we have nothing!
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#3

Requirements for a Prophecy
First of all, don't accept any Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy "prophesies." A lot of apologists try to claim credit for scientific discoveries, twisting their scriptures around them and claiming that ______ described the scientific phenomenon first.

My gold standard for prophesies: They have to be specific as to time and place, cannot be something that humans could make happen on purpose, and cannot be common knowledge of the era in which the prophesy was written. (For instance, it would be meaningless for the Quran to claim that the earth was round, because that was known by the Greeks a thousand years earlier.)
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#4

Requirements for a Prophecy
With regard to religious prophecy (specifically prophesying a future event that could only be the result of supernatural) I don't think there are any.

Don't fall for the completion backwards principle, identifying something as the end result and then scrubbing scripture for a link.

But good luck.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#5

Requirements for a Prophecy
(03-06-2024, 02:29 AM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(03-06-2024, 02:03 AM)Jarsa Wrote: A Muslim friend of mine is putting together a doc with Islamic prophecies. I told him I would convert if he could give me a prophecy that has become fulfilled but isn't too vague. What are some requirements for the prophecies that I could tell him, so that it would be valid evidence for the existence of a god?

I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree, but I can tell you for sure if you can't find the faith to believe this one verse in Scripture, you will go to your grave without knowing anything about God.

Psalm 138:2

"I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name."

God has placed His Word (The Holy Bible) above His name. That is what He has given us to know Him, it is the path to knowing His existence and having a relationship with Him.

Without His Word, we have nothing!

You need to purchase a dictionary.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#6

Requirements for a Prophecy
Easy. Tell him to use quranic science™ to lay out something, anything, we don't already know... and that should have him off your nuts until the other side of the heat death of the universe.
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#7

Requirements for a Prophecy
(03-06-2024, 02:33 AM)Astreja Wrote: First of all, don't accept any Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy "prophesies."  A lot of apologists try to claim credit for scientific discoveries, twisting their scriptures around them and claiming that ______ described the scientific phenomenon first.

My gold standard for prophesies:  They have to be specific as to time and place, cannot be something that humans could make happen on purpose, and cannot be common knowledge of the era in which the prophesy was written.  (For instance, it would be meaningless for the Quran to claim that the earth was round, because that was known by the Greeks a thousand years earlier.)
Muslims for some reason are particularly lavish in claiming the Quran is scientifically prescient. But these Islamic claims are uniformly silly, childish and incredibly desperate stretches. Muslim apologists sometimes make young earth creationists look convincing by comparison ... and that's saying a LOT. If I had a nickel for every time a Muslim has claimed that the Quaran predicted this or that scientific principle, I'd be wealthy. I should probably start collecting examples.

From what I can figure out, this tendency is because of a stridently literalist view of the Quran and the Hadiths. For example, there's a claim in the Hadiths that a caliph prevented one of his officers from getting ambushed by communicating with him telepathically; therefore, science is wrong in not embracing telepathy, because it's real, or it wouldn't be in that Hadith. Therefore science is suspect and anti-Islamic. There is even less of a concept or tradition of skepticism in Islam than in Christianity, if that's possible. There is not even an attempt to harmonize Islamic holy writ with science. I would guess that something like "theistic evolution" would never occur to a devout Muslim. The Christian equivalent would be to consider the notion of harmonizing the Genesis account with evolution as inherently blasphemous, such that 99% of Christians disbelieve the theory of evolution, rather than it being completely disbelieved by perhaps 5 % of Christians (a rough estimate of the number of conservative fundamentalist Christians worldwide, within the subset of about 17% evangelicals worldwide).

Also in play is that the Christian world is basically the Western world; it has way more practice in rationalizing the impedance mismatch between science and religion. And way more permission. For a long time, the printing press was forbidden in Muslim countries; owning one was punishable by death and owning a book (other than one that was hand-copied) subjected you to lengthy imprisonment -- this during a period when the West was building libraries of affordable and accessible books.
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#8

Requirements for a Prophecy
(03-06-2024, 03:12 AM)Rhythmcs Wrote: Easy.  Tell him to use quranic science™ to lay out something, anything, we don't already know... and that should have him off your nuts until the other side of the heat death of the universe.
Well that's easy, he just has to say that Allah is real -- that's something "we" don't already know. Better to say, invent some new innovative thing using the Quran, such as a solar panel that's 10x as efficient and 1/10th the cost of anything currently available, or a working nuclear fusion reactor that runs around the clock producing way more energy than it uses, or an EV with a range of 750 miles that recharges from empty to full in 60 seconds. Something the world actually could use.
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#9

Requirements for a Prophecy
(03-06-2024, 03:15 AM)mordant Wrote: [quote="Astreja" pid='418592' dateline='1709692402']


... such that 99% of Christians disbelieve the theory of evolution, rather than it being completely disbelieved by perhaps 5 % of Christians (a rough estimate of the number of conservative fundamentalist Christians worldwide, within the subset of about 17% evangelicals worldwide).

Did you mean 99% of Muslims?
“Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. 
Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.”
― Napoleon Bonaparte
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#10

Requirements for a Prophecy
I know of only two prophecies for something that a) were predicted long before they b) actually came true.

The first was H. L. Mencken writing in 1920 in The Baltimore Sun.

[Image: EIJkH51XkAEoGbz?format=jpg&name=small]


This prophecy came true on Jan. 21, 2001 when Dubya entered the White House and was grossly superceded on Jan. 21, 2017 when Fuckface entered the White House.  But a prophecy only has to come true once.

The second was Paddy Chayevsky's 1976 screenplay for Network in which he accurately predicted that the news media would become just another function of corporate greed in a ratings battle and devolve into idiocy.  In 1996, Rupert Murdoch founded FOX NEWS.


The fucking bible has nothing to match that and neither does the fucking koran.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#11

Requirements for a Prophecy
(03-06-2024, 03:24 AM)Chas Wrote:
(03-06-2024, 03:15 AM)mordant Wrote: [quote="Astreja" pid='418592' dateline='1709692402']


... such that 99% of Christians disbelieve the theory of evolution, rather than it being completely disbelieved by perhaps 5 % of Christians (a rough estimate of the number of conservative fundamentalist Christians worldwide, within the subset of about 17% evangelicals worldwide).

Did you mean 99% of Muslims?
I was giving a hypothetical Christian equivalent to Muslim thinking, although it's hyperbole to say that 99% of muslims reject, say, the theory of evolution. It's probably more like 30% (Pew's take on how many Muslims are fundamentalists, though one must keep in mind they are heavily concentrated in the very poor / backward and generally authoritarian theocracies, and 99% might not be a bad number within many of those countries).

About 17% of Christians are evangelicals on a worldwide basis, or 25% of Americans, and depending on your definition of "fundamentalist", some / most / all of those are also fundamentalists. My own sense is maybe 5% of Christians worldwide are true, strict, literalist, inerrantist, science-denying fundies. So Muslims by that rough reckoning are 6x as likely to be that way.
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#12

Requirements for a Prophecy
(03-06-2024, 03:25 AM)Minimalist Wrote: I know of only two prophecies for something that a) were predicted long before they b) actually came true.

The first was H. L. Mencken writing in 1920 in The Baltimore Sun.

[Image: EIJkH51XkAEoGbz?format=jpg&name=small]


This prophecy came true on Jan. 21, 2001 when Dubya entered the White House and was grossly superceded on Jan. 21, 2017 when Fuckface entered the White House.  But a prophecy only has to come true once.

The second was Paddy Chayevsky's 1976 screenplay for Network in which he accurately predicted that the news media would become just another function of corporate greed in a ratings battle and devolve into idiocy.  In 1996, Rupert Murdoch founded FOX NEWS.


The fucking bible has nothing to match that and neither does the fucking koran.

I have a better one, prophesied 700 years before the fact of Christ' birth.


Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Luke 2:7 - And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
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#13

Requirements for a Prophecy
(03-06-2024, 03:39 AM)Charlie24 Wrote: I have a better one, prophesied 700 years before the fact of Christ' birth...

ROFL2  Gee, I wonder if the author of Luke ever read the book of Isaiah...

The Gospels are essentially Old Testament fan fiction.  Disqualified as a prophesy because there's nothing the least bit special about babies being born, or about writing a story based on an older story.
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#14

Requirements for a Prophecy
(03-06-2024, 03:39 AM)Charlie24 Wrote: Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
A better translation would be,'For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."'

There is no future tense in the original Hebrew text. It is talking about God's approval of Hezekiah, who was at the time Isaiah wrote this passage, about to ascend to the throne.

New Testament authors co-opted (and often mis-quoted or quoted out of context) many such passages to make the claim that Jesus was the Messiah, and Christian "thinkers" have been obliged to run with that ever since.
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#15

Requirements for a Prophecy
(03-06-2024, 03:47 AM)mordant Wrote:
(03-06-2024, 03:39 AM)Charlie24 Wrote: Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
A better translation would be,'For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."'

There is no future tense in the original Hebrew text. It is talking about God's approval of Hezekiah, who was at the time Isaiah wrote this passage, about to ascend to the throne.

New Testament authors co-opted (and often mis-quoted or quoted out of context) many such passages to make the claim that Jesus was the Messiah, and Christian "thinkers" have been obliged to run with that ever since.

I don't even want to know where you found that. But if that's what you believe then drive on my man.
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#16

Requirements for a Prophecy
(03-06-2024, 03:47 AM)mordant Wrote: A better translation would be, 'For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."' (emphasis mine)

That changes the meaning a lot.  Charlie's version makes it appear that the child was '"the mighty God" rather than being given the name "the prince of peace" by the god.  I'm not well versed in Judaism, but I suspect it would be considered blasphemous to call a child "the mighty God."
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#17

Requirements for a Prophecy
(03-06-2024, 03:55 AM)Astreja Wrote:
(03-06-2024, 03:47 AM)mordant Wrote: A better translation would be, 'For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."' (emphasis mine)

That changes the meaning a lot.  Charlie's version makes it appear that the child was '"the mighty God" rather than being given the name "the prince of peace" by the god.  I'm not well versed in Judaism, but I suspect it would be considered blasphemous to call a child "the mighty God."

Jesus Christ was and is God the Almighty.

John and Paul both point Him out as the Creator.

But yet He has a Father who is also God Almighty.

This is a mystery that we have no way of understanding.

Both Jesus and the Father are one God, but yet they are 2 distinct persons.
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#18

Requirements for a Prophecy
(03-06-2024, 04:13 AM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(03-06-2024, 03:55 AM)Astreja Wrote: That changes the meaning a lot.  Charlie's version makes it appear that the child was '"the mighty God" rather than being given the name "the prince of peace" by the god.  I'm not well versed in Judaism, but I suspect it would be considered blasphemous to call a child "the mighty God."

Jesus Christ was and is God the Almighty.

John and Paul both point Him out as the Creator.

But yet He has a Father who is also God Almighty.

This is a mystery that we have no way of understanding.

Both Jesus and the Father are one God, but yet they are 2 distinct persons.

Are you shocked at this or do you think I've lost my mind?
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#19

Requirements for a Prophecy
(03-06-2024, 03:51 AM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(03-06-2024, 03:47 AM)mordant Wrote: A better translation would be,'For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."'

There is no future tense in the original Hebrew text. It is talking about God's approval of Hezekiah, who was at the time Isaiah wrote this passage, about to ascend to the throne.

New Testament authors co-opted (and often mis-quoted or quoted out of context) many such passages to make the claim that Jesus was the Messiah, and Christian "thinkers" have been obliged to run with that ever since.

I don't even want to know where you found that. But if that's what you believe then drive on my man.
It's not belief, it is knowledge. The OT "messianic prophecies" can all be debunked as post hoc reinterpretations to justify the gospel narratives; in some cases they are misquoted and you can see it by comparing the NT quote to the OT original -- even in an English translation. I don't have this stuff memorized or something but studied it some years back when I first heard about it. I got the translation from a Jewish scholar of ancient Hebrew so I suppose you would discount it as the rantings of an unbeliever.
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#20

Requirements for a Prophecy
(03-06-2024, 04:23 AM)mordant Wrote:
(03-06-2024, 03:51 AM)Charlie24 Wrote: I don't even want to know where you found that. But if that's what you believe then drive on my man.
It's not belief, it is knowledge. The OT "messianic prophecies" can all be debunked as post hoc reinterpretations to justify the gospel narratives; in some cases they are misquoted and you can see it by comparing the NT quote to the OT original -- even in an English translation. I don't have this stuff memorized or something but studied it some years back when I first heard about it. I got the translation from a Jewish scholar of ancient Hebrew so I suppose you would discount it as the rantings of an unbeliever.

Or it could be the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed to man.

There is nothing in the New that didn't come from the Old.

In the Old Testament Jesus Christ is hidden but present in many pages.

He's present in types and shadows.

For example, when Moses and the Hebrews came to the waters in the wilderness, the waters were bitter and couldn't be consumed.

God told Moses to cut down a tree near the water and cast it into the water, when he did the waters became sweet.

The tree represented the Tree Christ was crucified on, through His sacrifice for our sins He has given us life as the water gave them life.

There are many types and shadows ot Christ in the Old Testament. I think one day when I get time I'll start an thread and point them out.
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#21

Requirements for a Prophecy
(03-06-2024, 03:55 AM)Astreja Wrote: That changes the meaning a lot.  Charlie's version makes it appear that the child was '"the mighty God" rather than being given the name "the prince of peace" by the god.  I'm not well versed in Judaism, but I suspect it would be considered blasphemous to call a child "the mighty God."

(03-06-2024, 04:13 AM)Charlie24 Wrote: Jesus Christ was and is God the Almighty.

Even if that were true, that's almost certainly not what the original Hebrew text of Isaiah said.

I took the liberty of looking up the Hebrew for Isaiah 9:6, and found three versions [here].  Here is the text of each one, followed by the Google Translate version:

1.  Westminster Leningrad Codex with modern vowel markings:  כִּי־יֶ֣לֶד יֻלַּד־לָ֗נוּ בֵּ֚ן נִתַּן־לָ֔נוּ וַתְּהִ֥י הַמִּשְׂרָ֖ה עַל־שִׁכְמֹ֑ו וַיִּקְרָ֨א שְׁמֹ֜ו פֶּ֠לֶא יֹועֵץ֙ אֵ֣ל גִּבֹּ֔ור אֲבִיעַ֖ד שַׂר־שָׁלֹֽום׃

Google translation:  "Because the child was born to us in a son given to us and the work of God was given to us and his name was called "Peplea Yovetz"

2.  Westminster Leningrad Codex without the vowel markings:  "כי־ילד ילד־לנו בן נתן־לנו ותהי המשרה על־שכמו ויקרא שמו פלא יועץ אל גבור אביעד שר־שלום׃

Google translation:  "For a child begat us a son, he gave us, and the office was upon him, and his name was called Wonder, Counselor to the mighty Abiad, Servant of peace."

3.  Aleppo Codex:  ה כי ילד ילד לנו בן נתן לנו ותהי המשרה על שכמו ויקרא שמו פלא יועץ אל גבור אבי עד שר שלום

Google translation:  "For a child gave us a son, and he gave us the office, and his name was called Wonder."

 (As I well know from my own language studies, Google can often be far off the mark because it's doing primarily literal word-by-word translations.  What's noteworthy about the above examples is that none of the translations indicate that the baby was God.)

(03-06-2024, 04:22 AM)Charlie24 Wrote: Are you shocked at this or do you think I've lost my mind?

Neither.  You're just parroting Bible verses, which is a phenomenon I've experienced thousands of times in my 20 years on Internet forums.
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#22

Requirements for a Prophecy
(03-06-2024, 04:38 AM)Astreja Wrote:
(03-06-2024, 03:55 AM)Astreja Wrote: That changes the meaning a lot.  Charlie's version makes it appear that the child was '"the mighty God" rather than being given the name "the prince of peace" by the god.  I'm not well versed in Judaism, but I suspect it would be considered blasphemous to call a child "the mighty God."

(03-06-2024, 04:13 AM)Charlie24 Wrote: Jesus Christ was and is God the Almighty.

Even if that were true, that's almost certainly not what the original Hebrew text of Isaiah said.

I took the liberty of looking up the Hebrew for Isaiah 9:6, and found three versions [here].  Here is the text of each one, followed by the Google Translate version:

1.  Westminster Leningrad Codex with modern vowel markings:  כִּי־יֶ֣לֶד יֻלַּד־לָ֗נוּ בֵּ֚ן נִתַּן־לָ֔נוּ וַתְּהִ֥י הַמִּשְׂרָ֖ה עַל־שִׁכְמֹ֑ו וַיִּקְרָ֨א שְׁמֹ֜ו פֶּ֠לֶא יֹועֵץ֙ אֵ֣ל גִּבֹּ֔ור אֲבִיעַ֖ד שַׂר־שָׁלֹֽום׃

Google translation:  "Because the child was born to us in a son given to us and the work of God was given to us and his name was called "Peplea Yovetz"

2.  Westminster Leningrad Codex without the vowel markings:  "כי־ילד ילד־לנו בן נתן־לנו ותהי המשרה על־שכמו ויקרא שמו פלא יועץ אל גבור אביעד שר־שלום׃

Google translation:  "For a child begat us a son, he gave us, and the office was upon him, and his name was called Wonder, Counselor to the mighty Abiad, Servant of peace."

3.  Aleppo Codex:  ה כי ילד ילד לנו בן נתן לנו ותהי המשרה על שכמו ויקרא שמו פלא יועץ אל גבור אבי עד שר שלום

Google translation:  "For a child gave us a son, and he gave us the office, and his name was called Wonder."

 (As I well know from my own language studies, Google can often be far off the mark because it's doing primarily literal word-by-word translations.  What's noteworthy about the above examples is that none of the translations indicate that the baby was God.)

(03-06-2024, 04:22 AM)Charlie24 Wrote: Are you shocked at this or do you think I've lost my mind?

Neither.  You're just parroting Bible verses, which is a phenomenon I've experienced thousands of times in my 20 years on Internet forums.

Isaiah just makes us aware of it, the Apostles of Christ confirm it beyond any doubt.

The voice that said in Genesis, "let there be light and there was light" is the same voice that said in the Gospel of Matthew, "I am the light of the world." It's the Christ Jesus, the Creator of this world.

I think this is too much for guys right now, but I can show you the Scripture how we know this.
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#23

Requirements for a Prophecy
(03-06-2024, 02:29 AM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(03-06-2024, 02:03 AM)Jarsa Wrote: A Muslim friend of mine is putting together a doc with Islamic prophecies. I told him I would convert if he could give me a prophecy that has become fulfilled but isn't too vague. What are some requirements for the prophecies that I could tell him, so that it would be valid evidence for the existence of a god?

I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree, but I can tell you for sure if you can't find the faith to believe this one verse in Scripture, you will go to your grave without knowing anything about God.

Psalm 138:2

"I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name."

God has placed His Word (The Holy Bible) above His name. That is what He has given us to know Him, it is the path to knowing His existence and having a relationship with Him.

Without His Word, we have nothing!

You really are a one-trick pony in your posts... Is there anything in your life beyond non-evidential "faith" and "God said it"? I mean, most people have questions about "something", and you don't seem to.
A bully hides his fears with fake bravado. That is the opposite of self-assertiveness.
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#24

Requirements for a Prophecy
(03-06-2024, 04:58 AM)Cavebear Wrote:
(03-06-2024, 02:29 AM)Charlie24 Wrote: I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree, but I can tell you for sure if you can't find the faith to believe this one verse in Scripture, you will go to your grave without knowing anything about God.

Psalm 138:2

"I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name."

God has placed His Word (The Holy Bible) above His name. That is what He has given us to know Him, it is the path to knowing His existence and having a relationship with Him.

Without His Word, we have nothing!

You really are a one-trick pony in your posts...  Is there anything in your life beyond non-evidential "faith" and "God said it"?  I mean, most people have questions about "something", and you don't seem to.

I heard a great preacher once say, it's impossible for any man to absorb all that God desires to teach us from His Words, in this lifetime. I have found that is correct, I would dare say several lifetimes. But I keep trying in this lifetime.
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#25

Requirements for a Prophecy
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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