Divine Decree or the Opinion of Man

[Paleophyte]

The Atheist has much more faith than any believer in God. 

It takes extra faith, an overwhelming faith to believe that man and the universe came into existence by chance.

As far as covid, that is controlled by God. He placed man here to oversee His creation, to groom it and care for all that's here.

Your argument is drifting. I'll take that to mean that to mean that you have no valid counterpoint.

As for the "atheists need for faith" schtick that's a truly yawnworthy chestnut. God isn't an explanation, it's an excuse to stop asking the question. At the end of the day "goddunnit" doesn't tell you when, where, why, or how. It has neither explanatory nor predictive power.

There are a lot of hypotheses about why the universe is here. Only a few of them rely solely on chance and many suggest that there was no beginning. Keep on with that though. I'm eternally amused by arguments from cosmology from bumpkins who took 1500 years to figure that the sun doesn't go round the Earth and imprisoned the first poor bugger who dared to suggest otherwise.

Would this be the same "Saint" Paul that hijacked Christianity from the Christians?

NO, It's the Paul of Tarsus that God gave 1/3 of the New Testament authorship to teach us the meaning of the New Covenant.

So yes, the same Paul. Got his start persecuting Christians until a funny thing happened on the road to Damascus. After that he takes over your saviour's church and completely retools it. Christianity as invented by a hack who never met Christ. Any day now you'll start wondering about the not so subtle almond aftertaste in that Cool Aid.

[Deesse23]

...and you have, right?
Like i said: Thats the problem with you.

You haven't been reading my posts, or you conveniently dropped my statement that "If is say there is a God a God in heaven, that is my personal opinion, I cannot show you a physical God."

You didnt read MY last post. It was about choosing beliefs. You admittedly do, i dont.
Who asked for a physical god btw?

[Deesse23]

Unlike you, i dont choose my beliefs. Thats the problem with you.

If you have heard the Gospel of Christ, His death, burial and resurrection, and the explanation that He died in your place for your sins that by faith in Him, you can be brought back into relationship with God the Father, then you have already made a choice to believe or reject that Gospel. 

In other words, when you stand before God at the judgement, you will have already prepared your destiny.

I dont choose my beliefs, i feel compelled to accept some propositions and others not, because i have standards. What is your standard for accepting a belief?

Oh, and dont threaten me, ok? It just shows that your position holds not merit.at.all.

[Deesse23]

Nop

So what?

If there is no God, then steal, lie, kill, and do whatever you need to do to survive. 

You have no one to answer to but the human law, if they can catch you.

#1 You only dont steal, lie, kill and do whatever you want because god tells you so? Is that what you are saying? Then be all means, keep your silly religious belief, so we can aviod you doing harm to society.
#2 You can steal, lie, kill and do whatever you want , and still be "forgiven" by god on judgement day, dontcha? Stop pretending your gods system is more just than any human system. It isnt. Its even worse. You can be the worst human ever, and be forgiven.

[no one]

The same question I've been asking since you infested the site.

What OUTSIDE of your stupid book, proves that jebus died for my "sins"?

Curious, how your type always seem to "miss" certain questions.

[Rhythmcs]

Keeps getting stranger and stranger. First we're told that we can't really decide between opinions, and now we're told that we can decide to follow gods opinions, which we don't/can't understand.

IDK my guy, I think I'm going to keep deciding between opinions based on what I can understand, and based on what those opinions contain, rather than whoever or whatever happens to hold them. The moral relativism you're espousing..based explicitly on ignorance no less, just doesn't suit me. I like to be able to explain why I think things are right or wrong, and bring receipts to support those opinions.

[Charlie24]

The Atheist has much more faith than any believer in God. 

It takes extra faith, an overwhelming faith to believe that man and the universe came into existence by chance.

As far as covid, that is controlled by God. He placed man here to oversee His creation, to groom it and care for all that's here.

Your argument is drifting. I'll take that to mean that to mean that you have no valid counterpoint.

As for the "atheists need for faith" schtick that's a truly yawnworthy chestnut. God isn't an explanation, it's an excuse to stop asking the question. At the end of the day "goddunnit" doesn't tell you when, where, why, or how. It has neither explanatory nor predictive power.

There are a lot of hypotheses about why the universe is here. Only a few of them rely solely on chance and many suggest that there was no beginning. Keep on with that though. I'm eternally amused by arguments from cosmology from bumpkins who took 1500 years to figure that the sun doesn't go round the Earth and imprisoned the first poor bugger who dared to suggest otherwise.

NO, It's the Paul of Tarsus that God gave 1/3 of the New Testament authorship to teach us the meaning of the New Covenant.

So yes, the same Paul. Got his start persecuting Christians until a funny thing happened on the road to Damascus. After that he takes over your saviour's church and completely retools it. Christianity as invented by a hack who never met Christ. Any day now you'll start wondering about the not so subtle almond aftertaste in that Cool Aid.

Man can get himself lost in the knowledge of science to the point that common sense escapes him.

The fact is that if there is no Creator, there is no design, no design and it is all by chance.

Jesus Himself said that Paul was "a chosen vessel that would stand before Kings and mighty men on the earth for the witness of the Gospel."

The Apostle Peter said in his 2nd epistle that the letters written by Paul is the Word of God.

There are many in the Christian ranks who do not understand the New Covenant, they are still stuck in the Law of the Old Testament. It is Paul and only Paul that explains why the "Old Testament has passed away" having served its purpose. The New Testament (New Covenant) has been ushered in by the Blood of Jesus Christ.

No doubt whatsoever that you have been talking to these people who have a lack of understanding concerning Paul and the work God gave him to do.

[Rhythmcs]

Let's assume, against all evidence to the contrary, that everything is "all by chance". So?

[Charlie24]

You haven't been reading my posts, or you conveniently dropped my statement that "If is say there is a God a God in heaven, that is my personal opinion, I cannot show you a physical God."

You didnt read MY last post. It was about choosing beliefs. You admittedly do, i dont.
Who asked for a physical god btw?

So you are saying that you have not chosen to deny God? You have not chosen to accept the theory of evolution as introduced by the scientific world?

Sounds to me that you are not being honest with ol' Charlie.

[Charlie24]

If you have heard the Gospel of Christ, His death, burial and resurrection, and the explanation that He died in your place for your sins that by faith in Him, you can be brought back into relationship with God the Father, then you have already made a choice to believe or reject that Gospel. 

In other words, when you stand before God at the judgement, you will have already prepared your destiny.

I dont choose my beliefs, i feel compelled to accept some propositions and others not, because i have standards. What is your standard for accepting a belief?

Oh, and dont threaten me, ok? It just shows that your position holds not merit.at.all.

I'm not threatening you, I have no power over your soul to cast you into Hell or to accept you into heaven.

Only God can do that! I'm just telling you what He has said in that Book that you ignore.

My standard of belief comes from within myself by hearing the Word of God. This physical body I have is just the shell, the covering of the real Charlie.

In my body is a spirit and a soul that God has created. This is the real me that God relates to, not my physical body.

[Rhythmcs]

All well and good, but it sounds like you're talking about whether or not some agent with opinions is willing to hurt us, not whether this agents opinions are right or true or how we could determine that either way.

Honestly, we don't even need to bring gods into it to have that discusion. There are certainly people who would hurt people over differences of opinion..but so what?

[Charlie24]

If there is no God, then steal, lie, kill, and do whatever you need to do to survive. 

You have no one to answer to but the human law, if they can catch you.

#1 You only dont steal, lie, kill and do whatever you want because god tells you so? Is that what you are saying? Then be all means, keep your silly religious belief, so we can aviod you doing harm to society.
#2 You can steal, lie, kill and do whatever you want , and still be "forgiven" by god on judgement day, dontcha? Stop pretending your gods system is more just than any human system. It isnt. Its even worse. You can be the worst human ever, and be forgiven.

Why don't you stop pretending that you know anything about the relationship man has with God in "spirit and truth."

How that truly being "born again" is a change of heart and mind. The sinner no longer wants to do those things and is completely trusting in God to see him through without having to sin.

And yes, there is no sin so deep that the Grace of God is not already there, ready and willing to forgive when one repents of that sin believing In Jesus Christ.

[Charlie24]

All well and good, but it sounds like you're talking about whether or not some agent with opinions is willing to hurt us, not whether this agents opinions are right or true or how we could determine that either way.

Honestly, we don't even need to bring gods into it to have that discusion.  There are certainly people who would hurt people over differences of opinion..but so what?

Of course you don't believe in God, and that's the choice God has given man, to accept or reject Him.

That doesn't change the fact that if there is a God, He created you, He is greater than you, He holds in His hands your eternal destiny by giving you that choice to accept or reject Him. The choice is yours, God doesn't send anyone to Hell, man/woman sends themselves there by refusing to repent of the their sins against a Holy God.

Of course with you not being a believer and I am, I'm speaking nonsense in your view. This is totally insane what you're hearing from me. I get it, I was once where you are, not an Atheist but nevertheless an unbeliever.

[no one]

Still ignoring the question, Mr. I don't run, interesting.

[Rhythmcs]

Let's assume that there is a god, that it created me, and that it holds my destiny in it's hands. So? Are these the right or wrongmaking properties of a given opinion?

[Charlie24]

Still ignoring the question, Mr. I don't run, interesting.

no one, I have told you i haven't seen the question. I have no idea what it is, although I have asked you what that question is.

It seems that you want to pound in the stake that I'm running from your question, but I have no idea what it is.

Ill take the blame for not seeing the question, so what is it?

[no one]

I've asked it several times. How do you keep "missing" it?

Funny how you don't miss my asking why you are ignoring the question though.

What, OUTSIDE of your stupid book proves that jebus died for my "sins"?

Perhaps you need glasses.

[Charlie24]

Let's assume that there is a god, that it created me, and that it holds my destiny in it's hands.  So?  Are these the right or wrongmaking properties of a given opinion?

The fact is, this is assuming there is a God, that man has angered a Holy, perfect, sinless God by rejecting His plan of redemption He has offered sinful man.

Man is hopelessly lost in sin, God knows that, He knows that without Him man is a slave to sin. Since sinful man cannot pay his sin debt, God sent His only Son, Jesus Christ, to live a perfect life on this earth never sinning one time in thought or deed the entire 33 1/2 years of His life here.

That made Him the perfect sacrifice for mans sin, and He took upon Himself all of our sins on the Cross at Calvary some 2000 years ago that through faith in what He has done for us, we can be brought back into fellowship with God the Father.

Sin is much worse than any of us can imagine, it is the cause of all the deaths in the world, the diseases, all the sorrow and pain we suffer in this life.

God has said that man must be held accountable for his sin, God cannot just overlook it. He has said that man must pay for his sin with his blood. In other word, the sentence for sin is death, eternal separation from God.

But God in His mercy for man has made a way for us to escape this death sentence through believing in what Jesus Christ has done for us. Through believing, God has promised to wipe our sins away just as though they never existed. We are now righteous and perfect before God through His grace in believing. Though we are far from being perfect in this life, we are seen as perfect by God through His grace in believing in Jesus Christ.

[Rhythmcs]

Is that the right or wrongmaking property, then? Some other agents emotional state?

[Charlie24]

I've asked it several times. How do you keep "missing" it?

Funny how you don't miss my asking why you are ignoring the question though.

What, OUTSIDE of your stupid book proves that jebus died for my "sins"?

Perhaps you need glasses.

Maybe I do need glasses, or at least work on my attention to detail.

This is the first time I have seen this question. The answer...

You are looking in the wrong places for God, and it is for sure if you keep on this path you will never find Him.

Obviously, not that you really care whether you find Him or not.

All who search for God in the physical realm will never find Him, period!

I have explained how to reach God many times in my posts here.

Not that you care, or even consider what I say, but God can only be found in the spiritual realm.

[Charlie24]

Is that the right or wrongmaking property, then?  Some other agents emotional state?

Define "right or wrong making property."

Define "some other agents emotional state."

Make yourself clear, I can't guess at your angle on these phrases.

[Rhythmcs]

That's all well and good, but I'd rather hear your explanation of the moral system you're endorsing.

Is it genuinely true that right and wrong are not made by the properties of some act x - or even a matter of agreement between moral agents - simply based on whether or not they make a god feel a certain way? God angry? Bad. God happy? Good.

There's no angle, I'm just asking you whether or not you believe these things you're telling us about right and wrong.

[Charlie24]

That's all well and good, but I'd rather hear your explanation of the moral system you're endorsing.  

Is it genuinely true that right and wrong are not made by the properties of some act x - or even a matter of agreement between moral agents - simply based on whether or not they make a god feel a certain way?  God angry?  Bad.  God happy?  Good.

There's no angle, I'm just asking you whether or not you believe these things you're telling us about right and wrong.

Right and wrong are not based on man's opinion, and neither can be. I'm speaking from the position of man being totally disconnected from God, not knowing right and wrong from God's perspective. If we don't understand this, the whole moral argument is flushed down the toilet.

God sets the standard of morals, right and wrong. If there is a God, who are we to question Him? But many do and bring destruction to themselves, thinking they have the mental capacity to argue with the Creator who made them.

Personally, I have no faith whatsoever in Charlie, I'm just a created being in this world. Any morals that I may have are not my own, but were given to me by God. Fallen man is not capable of understanding God's morals, though he may do some good deeds in his life, it is through faith in Christ that God works in us His morals, He makes know what His morals really are. 

The Scripture refers to how we can recognize the true believers. It says, "you shall know them by their fruits." This is the "good works" that God instills in the believer, not according to what we think are good works, but according to what He has said good works are.

When we begin deciding what these goods works should be, that is when begin on a path away from God. The same is true with the moral agent, we don't decide what those morals are, He already knows what they are and if we are truly given to Him, then His version of morals will be seen in us.

[airportkid]

All so-called "divine" decrees are either spoken or written by people.  Nothing distinguishes them from anything else spoken or written by people.  They are therefore just as much mere opinion as any other opinion.  And, like many opinions, unaccompanied by corroborating evidence, often in conflict with established evidence, are more annoying noise than constructive direction.

The word "or" in the OP title is incorrect, and should instead be the word "is".

[Rhythmcs]

I think we would both agree that they could be based on mans opinion..otherwise we wouldn't have any moral systems to criticize on the basis of their being mans opinion?

We've returned to the initial question I had for you. What do you think the difference is between right and wrongmaking properties being mans opinion, or a gods opinion? They're both examples of moral relativism or subjectivism. Do you genuinely believe that the only difference..the right or wrongmaking property... is who holds the opinion? Say god says that coughing in old peoples faces is bad. Is it bad because there's something about coughing in peoples faces, and god is trying to communicate that fact to us, or is it bad because god said not to do it, and that's the fact god is communicating to us?