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Can you help?
#1
Tongue 
Can you help?
Hi everyone, as you know I'm principle carer for my very elderly mother. She now requires much more help and so I not only have to take her to church I have to stay there with her too. Consequently as I expected they're swarming around me trying to convert me. To cut a long story short I've been invited to a monthly study group on the book of Romans and I'm seriously considering going, if for no other reason than to assail them with facts point out contradictions and basically set the cat among the pigeons. There's only one problem, I'm not a particularly intelligent person, any thoughts arguments history study aids or links you might have would be very gratefully received and I will use this thread to keep everyone updated and ask further questions should I get into difficulties. Thank you all in anticipation A.
The whole point of having cake is to eat it Cake_Feast
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#2

Can you help?
You could pretend to be enthusiastic but ask awkward questions.
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#3

Can you help?
There is skeptic's annotated bible: https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/rom/outline.html

Edit: Not knowing you and your mom's relationship I'll add this, are you sure that being a instigator is a good idea?
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#4

Can you help?
In Richard Carrier's ( a PH. D. in history, btw) book, On the Historicity of Jesus, he notes the following.


Quote:As a psychologist once put it (about Paul's letter to fellow congregants in
Rome, whom he had not yet met and thus can't have shared his own stories
with):
Imagine for a moment that one of your friends writes you a twenty-page
letter passionately wanting to share her excitement about a new teacher.
This letter has only one topic, your friend's new teacher. [But] at the end
of her letter, you still do not know one thing about her teacher. Yet, Paul
presents the central figure of his theology this way
.
.
.. It [seems] impossible to imagine how Paul could avoid telling one story or parable of--or
fail to note one physical trait or personal quality of Jesus.

Indeed, Paul mentions 'Jesus' or 'Christ' in his seven authentic letters at
least 280 times-and that doesn't count other references to him as only 'the
Lord' or 'Son of God'. Altogether, Paul found over three hundred occasions 
to mention Jesus (by some name or title), and on at least half of those
occasions he tells us some particular fact or other about this Jesus. But (as
we'll see) not one of those facts connects Jesus with an earthly life (with
out adding suppositions not in the text). His crucifixion is mentioned over
fifteen times; and his resurrection, over thirty times. But never any details.


8. Billy Wheaton and Joy Fuller, Hooks and Ladders: A Journey on a Bridge to
Nowhere with American Evangelical Christians (Bloomington, IN: iUniverse, 2009),


pgs 514-515

The problem with all the Paul crap is that we don't know what the originals said.  All we have is what emerged from later church writers or editors and which THEY SAY that this is what it said.  Well....the early church fathers were unreliable bastards.

BTW, you are probably wasting your time just as how xhristards who come here spouting their jesus shit are wasting theirs.  Anyone who accepts this religious horseshit as real is probably beyond hope.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#5

Can you help?
Did they invite you to be friendly or are they badgering you to go?
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#6

Can you help?
If you are not quick-witted enough, they will run circles around you -- they out number you, and will pile up pro-jesus shit so fast you'll become hopelessly lost looking for replies. You won't have fun, you won't crack the barrier, your Mom will find out.

I would really rather you didn't go.

Put that effort into a community that will appreciate you, like us!
I am not fire-wood!
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#7

Can you help?
You probably just shouldn't go.
[Image: nL4L1haz_Qo04rZMFtdpyd1OZgZf9NSnR9-7hAWT...dc2a24480e]

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#8

Can you help?
(01-08-2024, 04:59 PM)adey67 Wrote: Hi everyone, as you know I'm principle carer for my very elderly mother. She now requires much more help and so I not only have to take her to church I have to stay there with her too. Consequently as I expected they're swarming around me trying to convert me. To cut a long story short I've been invited to a monthly study group on the book of Romans and I'm seriously considering going, if for no other reason than to assail them with facts point out contradictions and basically set the cat among the pigeons. There's only one problem, I'm not a particularly intelligent person, any thoughts arguments history study aids or links you might have would be very gratefully received and I will use this thread to keep everyone updated and ask further questions should I get into difficulties. Thank you all in anticipation A.

You get more bees with honey than with vinegar. Why anyone would want bees though, I don't know.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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#9

Can you help?
(01-08-2024, 05:35 PM)Aliza Wrote: Did they invite you to be friendly or are they badgering you to go?

I think they're engaging in both but mostly friendly, I was an active member of this church from about 2002 until 2013 so I have history with them
The whole point of having cake is to eat it Cake_Feast
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#10

Can you help?
(01-08-2024, 05:55 PM)Aegon Wrote: You probably just shouldn't go.

I really want to make them squirm a bit though, who knows it could make some of them think. Most of them are very much cultural Christians about the only one with any in-depth knowledge is the lady vicar.
The whole point of having cake is to eat it Cake_Feast
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#11

Can you help?
(01-08-2024, 06:57 PM)adey67 Wrote:
(01-08-2024, 05:35 PM)Aliza Wrote: Did they invite you to be friendly or are they badgering you to go?

I think they're engaging in both but mostly friendly, I was an active member of this church from about 2002 until 2013 so I have history with them

Even more reason they want you to come back to the fold.
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#12

Can you help?
(01-08-2024, 05:22 PM)brewerb Wrote: There is skeptic's annotated bible: https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/rom/outline.html

Edit: Not knowing you and your mom's relationship I'll add this, are you sure that being a instigator is a good idea?

You'd be amazed what you can get away with saying if you phrase it correctly Tongue Angel
The whole point of having cake is to eat it Cake_Feast
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#13

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(01-08-2024, 07:06 PM)adey67 Wrote:
(01-08-2024, 05:22 PM)brewerb Wrote: There is skeptic's annotated bible: https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/rom/outline.html

Edit: Not knowing you and your mom's relationship I'll add this, are you sure that being a instigator is a good idea?

You'd be amazed what you can get away with saying if you phrase it correctly Tongue Angel

I'll take that under consideration.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#14

Can you help?
Tell them you're considering converting to Islam because the clothing is more comfortable around the crotch region.
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#15

Can you help?
You could wear this t-shirt?

[Image: shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcQLGL4Fw8oMS9YYbNrjp...M6WUbvwwi7]
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#16

Can you help?
Walk in with one of those ungodly huge crucifixes inverted. Smile
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#17

Can you help?
Personally, I would not want the hassle. Why don't you ask that someone at the church look after your mother while she is there and then all you have to do is drop her off and then pick her up. You would still be helping her out and would not find yourself held hostage by their beliefs. You could spend the time doing something that you really want to do.
Formerly WiCharlie Sun
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#18

Can you help?
Don't fake stigmata, just don't.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#19

Can you help?
(01-08-2024, 09:07 PM)brewerb Wrote: Don't fake stigmata, just don't.

As brewerb says, make sure it's the real thing.
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#20

Can you help?
(01-08-2024, 04:59 PM)adey67 Wrote: Hi everyone, as you know I'm principle carer for my very elderly mother. She now requires much more help and so I not only have to take her to church I have to stay there with her too. Consequently as I expected they're swarming around me trying to convert me. To cut a long story short I've been invited to a monthly study group on the book of Romans and I'm seriously considering going, if for no other reason than to assail them with facts point out contradictions and basically set the cat among the pigeons. There's only one problem, I'm not a particularly intelligent person, any thoughts arguments history study aids or links you might have would be very gratefully received and I will use this thread to keep everyone updated and ask further questions should I get into difficulties. Thank you all in anticipation A.

I think an advice columnist would say "Tell them you are just there to help your mother. I keep my own thoughts private". If they persist, bring her to a friendlier church. Would she know the difference?
Never try to catch a dropped kitchen knife!
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#21

Can you help?
(01-08-2024, 11:07 PM)Cavebear Wrote:
(01-08-2024, 04:59 PM)adey67 Wrote: Hi everyone, as you know I'm principle carer for my very elderly mother. She now requires much more help and so I not only have to take her to church I have to stay there with her too. Consequently as I expected they're swarming around me trying to convert me. To cut a long story short I've been invited to a monthly study group on the book of Romans and I'm seriously considering going, if for no other reason than to assail them with facts point out contradictions and basically set the cat among the pigeons. There's only one problem, I'm not a particularly intelligent person, any thoughts arguments history study aids or links you might have would be very gratefully received and I will use this thread to keep everyone updated and ask further questions should I get into difficulties. Thank you all in anticipation A.

I think an advice columnist would say "Tell them you are just there to help your mother.  I keep my own thoughts private".  If they persist, bring her to a friendlier church.  Would she know the difference?
I think I like your advice the best. It will start out friendly, but when the OP doesn't make the proper noises and act all impressed with their arguments, they will start getting snippy. Life is too short.
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#22

Can you help?
(01-08-2024, 04:59 PM)adey67 Wrote: Hi everyone, as you know I'm principle carer for my very elderly mother. She now requires much more help and so I not only have to take her to church I have to stay there with her too. Consequently as I expected they're swarming around me trying to convert me. To cut a long story short I've been invited to a monthly study group on the book of Romans and I'm seriously considering going, if for no other reason than to assail them with facts point out contradictions and basically set the cat among the pigeons. There's only one problem, I'm not a particularly intelligent person, any thoughts arguments history study aids or links you might have would be very gratefully received and I will use this thread to keep everyone updated and ask further questions should I get into difficulties. Thank you all in anticipation A.

Fuck you woman!

Let me repeat that: Fuck you!

You have a greater understanding and more life experience of how the world actually works than all the verbose, wordsmith philosophers that have ever posted in these forums.

Quote:Most of them are very much cultural Christians.

This is the wrong hill to die on and die you most certainly will if you go ahead with this, choose your battles. Cultural Christians know it's a crock but dare not admit it* and they'll kickback more than the dedicated Christians in the group.

A killer argument? There isn't one, but try this. Before you walk out the door ask them in a loud voice: Why is there no mention of Jesus in the history books?
Then go home and roll a big fat one. Big Grin

Quote:*Sunk cost fallacy - The phenomenon whereby a person is reluctant to abandon a strategy or course of action because they have invested heavily in it.

Best regards hon.
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#23

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I'd also council against it; if you're going to be taking your mum there on the regular, you're going to have to co-exist with these people long term, so if you go in there shit-stirring, even subtly, it could make your time there much less comfortable in the long term. Not to mention potentially for your mum as well.
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#24

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(01-10-2024, 12:20 AM)Inkubus Wrote:
(01-08-2024, 04:59 PM)adey67 Wrote: Hi everyone, as you know I'm principle carer for my very elderly mother. She now requires much more help and so I not only have to take her to church I have to stay there with her too. Consequently as I expected they're swarming around me trying to convert me. To cut a long story short I've been invited to a monthly study group on the book of Romans and I'm seriously considering going, if for no other reason than to assail them with facts point out contradictions and basically set the cat among the pigeons. There's only one problem, I'm not a particularly intelligent person, any thoughts arguments history study aids or links you might have would be very gratefully received and I will use this thread to keep everyone updated and ask further questions should I get into difficulties. Thank you all in anticipation A.

Fuck you woman!

Let me repeat that: Fuck you!

You have a greater understanding and more life experience of how the world actually works than all the verbose, wordsmith philosophers that have ever posted in these forums.

Quote:Most of them are very much cultural Christians.

This is the wrong hill to die on and die you most certainly will if you go ahead with this, choose your battles. Cultural Christians know it's a crock but dare not admit it* and they'll kickback more than the dedicated Christians in the group.

A killer argument? There isn't one, but try this. Before you walk out the door ask them in a loud voice: Why is there no mention of Jesus in the history books?
Then go home and roll a big fat one. Big Grin

Quote:*Sunk cost fallacy - The phenomenon whereby a person is reluctant to abandon a strategy or course of action because they have invested heavily in it.

Best regards hon.

That's so sweet and I thank you kindly but there's one tiny problem, I'm a man Tongue Big Grin
The whole point of having cake is to eat it Cake_Feast
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#25

Can you help?
(01-10-2024, 01:10 AM)emjay Wrote: I'd also council against it; if you're going to be taking your mum there on the regular, you're going to have to co-exist with these people long term, so if you go in there shit-stirring, even subtly, it could make your time there much less comfortable in the long term. Not to mention potentially for your mum as well.

Thank you friend, that's something I hadn't considered so I'm going to follow your and others advice, it makes sense.
The whole point of having cake is to eat it Cake_Feast
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