Welcome to Atheist Discussion, a new community created by former members of The Thinking Atheist forum.

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
#76

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-09-2024, 10:42 PM)Rhythmcs Wrote:
(01-09-2024, 06:31 PM)Aliza Wrote: Such would be against Jewish law.

We're outside of the age of prophecy and G-d does not speak to us.

Convenient.  Though it seems like a really poor way to frame the response.  As though it was some other way around inside the age of prophecy, whenever that's supposed to have been - or if your god really did say to do so.

Wouldn't a simple "they were wrong about that" have handled the thing with far less ambiguity?

Was it wrong? It certainly was wrong by today's standards, but I'm left with the impression that there was a lot of slaying going around back then by everyone. -Like talking it out wasn't such an effective method to getting your point across. It seems like mankind grew out of that bloodthirsty approach and started finding ways to get along better, so yeah, I suppose the proof is in the pudding... we decided it was wrong and we changed our approach. 

Such a good thing humanity can learn and grow.
Reply
#77

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-09-2024, 06:50 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-09-2024, 06:45 PM)1Sam15 Wrote: But, no consequence for disobeying god?

If the matter is resolved while I'm alive, then no. If I ate pork, and felt badly about it and committed myself not to do it again, then the matter is taken care of.

If I didn't know or care about eating pork, then the sin carries much less weight and it wouldn't really matter if I ate it.

It sounds like your god has very little meaning to you compared to man’s law. 

You’re more concerned about you feeling “disappointed in myself and I strive to do better next time” compared to disobeying the creator of everything. 


Eating pork is quite different than you knowing in your heart god telling you do harm to someone and you disobeying.
Reply
#78

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-09-2024, 11:37 PM)no one Wrote: There is a part of their corrupt thinking unit that refuses to accept that their perfect story is anything but.

They still need to explain it to themselves. Make them really feel their cognitive dissonance. And if they ever get to a point in their lives when their faith starts to waiver then they'll remember that feeling.
The following 1 user Likes Mathilda's post:
  • mordant
Reply
#79

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-10-2024, 08:26 AM)1Sam15 Wrote:
(01-09-2024, 06:50 PM)Aliza Wrote: If the matter is resolved while I'm alive, then no. If I ate pork, and felt badly about it and committed myself not to do it again, then the matter is taken care of.

If I didn't know or care about eating pork, then the sin carries much less weight and it wouldn't really matter if I ate it.

It sounds like your god has very little meaning to you compared to man’s law. 

You’re more concerned about you feeling “disappointed in myself and I strive to do better next time” compared to disobeying the creator of everything. 


Eating pork is quite different than you knowing in your heart god telling you do harm to someone and you disobeying.

Jews and Christians interact with their respective deities very differently.

Our G-d doesn't talk to us, so me "knowing in my heart" that G-d wants me to hurt people is an indication of mental disease, not a command to be obeyed.
The following 2 users Like Aliza's post:
  • Alan V, Chas
Reply
#80

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-10-2024, 04:45 AM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-09-2024, 10:42 PM)Rhythmcs Wrote: Convenient.  Though it seems like a really poor way to frame the response.  As though it was some other way around inside the age of prophecy, whenever that's supposed to have been - or if your god really did say to do so.

Wouldn't a simple "they were wrong about that" have handled the thing with far less ambiguity?

Was it wrong? It certainly was wrong by today's standards, but I'm left with the impression that there was a lot of slaying going around back then by everyone. -Like talking it out wasn't such an effective method to getting your point across. It seems like mankind grew out of that bloodthirsty approach and started finding ways to get along better, so yeah, I suppose the proof is in the pudding... we decided it was wrong and we changed our approach. 

Such a good thing humanity can learn and grow.
As you know, that's often all an atheist is trying to tease out of a theist.  Some confirmation that you're not a monster, that you apprehend these so called commands from your various gods with as much disgust as we do, lol.  You felt comfortable enough telling another believer that their identically sourced beliefs were horrid, stupid, and their inner voice knew it - but it took some tooth pulling to get you there, about your own, eh?

In the grander scheme of things, and laying aside that your initial waffle in that post might ignore that the story was both fictional and part and parcel of a diplomatic effort itself...from an outsiders point of view - we have have a strange chicken and egg situation. Were people really that dogshit then, and so their gods ended up dogshit. Or was it because people were indoctrinated into garbage religions that they acted out in such a way? Are people, or people of faith...any better now...or are they still trying to find a way to square those same circles? You tell us, still searching for excuses and escape hatches, that your god doesn't talk to you (and I wholeheartedly believe you) - but that's not what magic book says. You can probably understand why many people are left with the impression that there's some conflict or dissonance between being convinced by holy writ and being a decent human being. That even the nicest of you might be one bad plate of shrimp away from exterminating some group of people on the orders of a god.
Reply
#81

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-10-2024, 02:16 PM)6 Wrote:
(01-10-2024, 04:45 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
Was it wrong? It certainly was wrong by today's standards, but I'm left with the impression that there was a lot of slaying going around back then by everyone. -Like talking it out wasn't such an effective method to getting your point across. It seems like mankind grew out of that bloodthirsty approach and started finding ways to get along better, so yeah, I suppose the proof is in the pudding... we decided it was wrong and we changed our approach. 
 
Such a good thing humanity can learn and grow.
As you know, that's often all an atheist is trying to tease out of a theist.  Some confirmation that you're not a monster, that you apprehend these so called commands from your various gods with as much disgust as we do, lol.  You felt comfortable enough telling another believer that their identically sourced beliefs were horrid, stupid, and their inner voice knew it - but it took some tooth pulling to get you there, about your own, eh?
 
(01-07-2024, 10:13 PM)Aliza Wrote: And [the atheists are] fine. And you know what? From one theist to another, I'm pretty sure G-d is also fine with them. What kind of douchebag deity lets his children burn for an eternity for being the way he created them, amIright? That's stupid, paranoid thinking, and your inner voice knows it. 
 
This quote was about whether or not people believe in Dave's deity. In this situation, Dave's deity has not provided incontrovertible proof of their existence and punishes people with an eternity of inescapable torture for failing to draw the intended conclusion without also equipping them with the information required to arrive at the intended conclusion. In Dave’s narrative, the deity is doing this to living people today; this is not a practice that occurred thousands of years ago. So, in his belief and acceptance, Dave is supporting a deity who wishes to harm you now.
 
Yes, I find that barbaric and I don't see the divinity in that approach for securing the adoring praise and worship of a group of people.
 
But the question that was asked of me originally was if I sincerely believed that G-d wanted me to murder people, would I carry out those orders? Of course not. Who the fuck even does that unless they’re suffering from mental illness? For all intents and purposes, the question I was really asked was, “Are you mentally ill?” 

A better question might have been, “How do you feel about the atrocities ordered by your deity thousands of years ago?” or even better, “I notice that your people have not committed mass murder in the past… 2,500* years. What changed?”

Like every other human on this planet, I am a product of thousands of years of cultural development. I benefit from living in a society that is more refined than those that came before me, and my descendants will benefit from the lessons learned in my time. Honestly, I’m mostly detached from events of the past. I don’t look at atrocities and think to myself, “Oh my goodness! How can I possibly carry on living knowing my own people did bad things thousands upon thousands of years ago?” Everyone’s ancestors did horrible, backward things, and we don’t use genetic or cultural connection as justification to continue doing them. We say, “That shit was fucked up! Let’s not continue this practice and let’s ostracize people and cultures that do!”

My religion works for me and I'm way more focused on the impact that 4,000 years of wisdom and cultural refinement has on my life and my culture today, than I am worried about people my ancestors saw as enemies.
 
* I’m not sure on the timing. 2,500 feels good, though.
The following 3 users Like Aliza's post:
  • Mathilda, pattylt, epronovost
Reply
#82

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
Quote:But the question that was asked of me originally was if I sincerely believed that G-d wanted me to murder people, would I carry out those orders? Of course not. Who the fuck even does that unless they’re suffering from mental illness? For all intents and purposes, the question I was really asked was, “Are you mentally ill?” 


Quote:18 And the Lord said unto Joshua, Stretch out the spear that is in thy hand toward Ai; for I will give it into thine hand. And Joshua stretched out the spear that he had in his hand toward the city.
19 And the ambush arose quickly out of their place, and they ran as soon as he had stretched out his hand: and they entered into the city, and took it, and hasted and set the city on fire.
20 And when the men of Ai looked behind them, they saw, and, behold, the smoke of the city ascended up to heaven, and they had no power to flee this way or that way: and the people that fled to the wilderness turned back upon the pursuers.
21 And when Joshua and all Israel saw that the ambush had taken the city, and that the smoke of the city ascended, then they turned again, and slew the men of Ai.
22 And the other issued out of the city against them; so they were in the midst of Israel, some on this side, and some on that side: and they smote them, so that they let none of them remain or escape.
23 And the king of Ai they took alive, and brought him to Joshua.
24 And it came to pass, when Israel had made an end of slaying all the inhabitants of Ai in the field, in the wilderness wherein they chased them, and when they were all fallen on the edge of the sword, until they were consumed, that all the Israelites returned unto Ai, and smote it with the edge of the sword.
25 And so it was, that all that fell that day, both of men and women, were twelve thousand, even all the men of Ai.
26 For Joshua drew not his hand back, wherewith he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai.
Joshua 8

Apparently Joshua fell for it.

Of course the story is bullshit.  Ai was destroyed in the middle Bronze Age ( c 2200 BCE) and not resettled at all until the Iron Age.  But that raises an even greater disconcerting question.  Why did the people who eventually concocted this nonsense think that stories such as this belonged in their 'glorious history' that they were inventing?  You might well ask, what the fuck was wrong with them?
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
The following 1 user Likes Minimalist's post:
  • Szuchow
Reply
#83

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-10-2024, 04:13 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:But the question that was asked of me originally was if I sincerely believed that G-d wanted me to murder people, would I carry out those orders? Of course not. Who the fuck even does that unless they’re suffering from mental illness? For all intents and purposes, the question I was really asked was, “Are you mentally ill?” 


Quote:18 And the Lord said unto Joshua, Stretch out the spear that is in thy hand toward Ai; for I will give it into thine hand. And Joshua stretched out the spear that he had in his hand toward the city.
19 And the ambush arose quickly out of their place, and they ran as soon as he had stretched out his hand: and they entered into the city, and took it, and hasted and set the city on fire.
20 And when the men of Ai looked behind them, they saw, and, behold, the smoke of the city ascended up to heaven, and they had no power to flee this way or that way: and the people that fled to the wilderness turned back upon the pursuers.
21 And when Joshua and all Israel saw that the ambush had taken the city, and that the smoke of the city ascended, then they turned again, and slew the men of Ai.
22 And the other issued out of the city against them; so they were in the midst of Israel, some on this side, and some on that side: and they smote them, so that they let none of them remain or escape.
23 And the king of Ai they took alive, and brought him to Joshua.
24 And it came to pass, when Israel had made an end of slaying all the inhabitants of Ai in the field, in the wilderness wherein they chased them, and when they were all fallen on the edge of the sword, until they were consumed, that all the Israelites returned unto Ai, and smote it with the edge of the sword.
25 And so it was, that all that fell that day, both of men and women, were twelve thousand, even all the men of Ai.
26 For Joshua drew not his hand back, wherewith he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai.
Joshua 8

Apparently Joshua fell for it.

Of course the story is bullshit.  Ai was destroyed in the middle Bronze Age ( c 2200 BCE) and not resettled at all until the Iron Age.  But that raises an even greater disconcerting question.  Why did the people who eventually concocted this nonsense think that stories such as this belonged in their 'glorious history' that they were inventing?  You might well ask, what the fuck was wrong with them?

I dunno, Min.
The following 1 user Likes Aliza's post:
  • pattylt
Reply
#84

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
And THAT is a legitimate answer.

But it is one that religitards cannot abide.  When they don't have answers they have to invent them.  And thus, apologetics was born.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
The following 3 users Like Minimalist's post:
  • Aliza, pattylt, Chas
Reply
#85

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-10-2024, 10:22 AM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-10-2024, 08:26 AM)1Sam15 Wrote: It sounds like your god has very little meaning to you compared to man’s law. 

You’re more concerned about you feeling “disappointed in myself and I strive to do better next time” compared to disobeying the creator of everything. 


Eating pork is quite different than you knowing in your heart god telling you do harm to someone and you disobeying.

Jews and Christians interact with their respective deities very differently.

Our G-d doesn't talk to us, so me "knowing in my heart" that G-d wants me to hurt people is an indication of mental disease, not a command to be obeyed.

Can I ask what is the reason is you believe in a god?

I’m assuming a person wrote in a book long ago that your god is no longer talking to you. 

God itself didn’t tell you specifically, correct?

I asked if you if you believe in your heart that your god is commanding you to do harm to someone and you would tell god 1000% to f-off. 

Then you said if it did communicate with you, you would take it as a mental illness. 

Why can’t you make the next step and think a belief in a god, that doesn’t speak to you and if it did you wouldn’t believe it, is worth believing?
Reply
#86

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
To hear the story told, the point of the command wasn't to secure adoring praise and worship, so I'm not sure why that ought to be an issue. It was to exterminate a group of people, several, actually - in the fullness of the narrative. Several more in it's reboots - so I think we can fairly say there's a pattern to this gods alleged behaviors and it would not at all be out of character for it to command as such even if that was mystifying to us, and by some novel standard for being mystified.

From time to time I get the opportunity to tell people of faith that I genuinely appreciate their contemporary and secularized version of whatever god they believe in. As we're often both products of the same few thousand years of cultural development, I would..right? Like you, like most people I suspect, I also find myself detached from events of the past, and focused more on whatever good parts I can tease out of my own cultural heritage. In this, as an example, we both appear to express skepticism that any god ever said any such thing - but I think it would be in the interest of transparency to acknowledge that this assessment is not backed up by the texts either of your religions are sourced from. So, however a persons inner voice might object - and I assume that there are as few people here who like the idea of hell as there are who are keen on a little ethnic cleansing - atheists and theists alike - it's an open question as to whether you or that other believer have the correct understanding of a god.

It seems, as it so often does in many areas of life, that the more faithful and fundamental a person is, the shittier their takes. Doesn't just seem that way to me or to atheists. A jury of christians is very likely to ignore a defendants claim that their god told them to do x even if, like ordering exterminations or constructing hell, the command would be well within the wheelhouse of the god in question. If we should ostracize people and cultures that do these x's, should we not also wrap those gods themselves in shame along with any attempt at a more pleasant form that is..ultimately, bog standard revisionism?
Reply
#87

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
As an aside, do you really think that if you..as a person who believed in a god, had an experience that presented itself to you as divine..you'd instead write that down to mental illness and not do the thing? Personally, I think that I'd probably be compelled just like any other nut, and do it - and I don't even believe in gods. I mean, ideally, yeah, we'd both realize that we were sick...but I've gotta say, being primed for the experience (in a way that you and I are not but evangelical christians and perhaps the people in the ot) seems like one of the glaring vulnerabilities of any kind of theistic faith.
Reply
#88

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-10-2024, 04:35 PM)Rhythmcs Wrote: As an aside, do you really think that if you..as a person who believed in a god, had an experience that presented itself to you as divine..you'd instead write that down to mental illness and not do the thing?  Personally, I think that I'd probably be compelled just like any other nut, and do it - and I don't even believe in gods.  I mean, ideally, yeah, we'd both realize that we were sick...but I've gotta say, being primed for the experience (in a way that you and I are not but evangelical christians and perhaps the people in the ot) seems like one of the glaring vulnerabilities of any kind of theistic faith.

If my G-d starts talking to me, then I am experiencing mental illness, not prophecy.

That is not my personal belief; that is what Judaism teaches. We do not have modern-day prophets, so G-d should not be talking to anyone. As I'm thinking of the Messiah, I don't even think prophecy is a requirement to fulfill that role. 

So, if a Jewish person hears G-d talking to them, it's mental illness. If they murder people because they heard G-d talking to them, it's mental illness and also a crime. No Jewish group will come to their rescue and defend their case on the basis of religion. 


We do not have prophecy, and G-d does not talk to people. Period.
The following 2 users Like Aliza's post:
  • pattylt, Alan V
Reply
#89

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-10-2024, 04:22 PM)1Sam15 Wrote:
(01-10-2024, 10:22 AM)Aliza Wrote: Jews and Christians interact with their respective deities very differently.

Our G-d doesn't talk to us, so me "knowing in my heart" that G-d wants me to hurt people is an indication of mental disease, not a command to be obeyed.

Can I ask what is the reason is you believe in a god?

I’m assuming a person wrote in a book long ago that your god is no longer talking to you. 

God itself didn’t tell you specifically, correct?

I asked if you if you believe in your heart that your god is commanding you to do harm to someone and you would tell god 1000% to f-off. 

Then you said if it did communicate with you, you would take it as a mental illness. 

Why can’t you make the next step and think a belief in a god, that doesn’t speak to you and if it did you wouldn’t believe it, is worth believing?

Correct. If G-d talks to me, then I'm experiencing mental illness. I don't know how else to put this... G-d doesn't talk to people. We're past that. G-d would not tell me to murder people, so I'm in no danger of receiving that message. If G-d talked to me and told me to put the roses in the blue vase and not the pink vase, I'd also think I'm experiencing mental illness. I would contact a doctor.

I'm going to answer your question about why I don't take "the next step", but in order to best answer your question, I'd like you to spell out the benefits for me taking those next steps. Like... what's in it for me? What dangers might I experience from enjoying my life as I currently do? You don't need to write too much; a couple sentences will do. I just want a general idea of what you'd expect my life would look like as an atheist as opposed to being who I currently am.
Reply
#90

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-10-2024, 05:04 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-10-2024, 04:22 PM)1Sam15 Wrote: Can I ask what is the reason is you believe in a god?

I’m assuming a person wrote in a book long ago that your god is no longer talking to you. 

God itself didn’t tell you specifically, correct?

I asked if you if you believe in your heart that your god is commanding you to do harm to someone and you would tell god 1000% to f-off. 

Then you said if it did communicate with you, you would take it as a mental illness. 

Why can’t you make the next step and think a belief in a god, that doesn’t speak to you and if it did you wouldn’t believe it, is worth believing?

Correct. If G-d talks to me, then I'm experiencing mental illness. I don't know how else to put this... G-d doesn't talk to people. We're past that. G-d would not tell me to murder people, so I'm in no danger of receiving that message. If G-d talked to me and told me to put the roses in the blue vase and not the pink vase, I'd also think I'm experiencing mental illness. I would contact a doctor.

I'm going to answer your question about why I don't take "the next step", but in order to best answer your question, I'd like you to spell out the benefits for me taking those next steps. Like... what's in it for me? What dangers might I experience from enjoying my life as I currently do? You don't need to write too much; a couple sentences will do. I just want a general idea of what you'd expect my life would look like as an atheist as opposed to being who I currently am.

That’s a question I left out on my last post.

What do you get from god?


Regarding the next step, do Jews vote in the US? 

What flavor of government are they persuaded to vote for?



People’s religious beliefs have consequences.
Reply
#91

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-10-2024, 05:40 PM)1Sam15 Wrote:
(01-10-2024, 05:04 PM)Aliza Wrote: Correct. If G-d talks to me, then I'm experiencing mental illness. I don't know how else to put this... G-d doesn't talk to people. We're past that. G-d would not tell me to murder people, so I'm in no danger of receiving that message. If G-d talked to me and told me to put the roses in the blue vase and not the pink vase, I'd also think I'm experiencing mental illness. I would contact a doctor.

I'm going to answer your question about why I don't take "the next step", but in order to best answer your question, I'd like you to spell out the benefits for me taking those next steps. Like... what's in it for me? What dangers might I experience from enjoying my life as I currently do? You don't need to write too much; a couple sentences will do. I just want a general idea of what you'd expect my life would look like as an atheist as opposed to being who I currently am.

That’s a question I left out on my last post.

What do you get from god?


Regarding the next step, do Jews vote in the US? 

What flavor of government are they persuaded to vote for?

People’s religious beliefs have consequences.

Secular and nominally religious Jews make up 90% of the Jewish population, and they tend to sway moderately left to extremely left. Orthodox Jews are the remaining 10% and they sway right, but not extremely right by today's standards. Their motivations for being right differ from Christians. The most religious Jews often don't vote at all. And of course, there is crossover too. I know far more liberal Jews, than conservative Jews over all. Naturally, these are just rules of thumb, though.
The following 2 users Like Aliza's post:
  • Mathilda, mordant
Reply
#92

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-10-2024, 05:04 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-10-2024, 04:22 PM)1Sam15 Wrote: Can I ask what is the reason is you believe in a god?

I’m assuming a person wrote in a book long ago that your god is no longer talking to you. 

God itself didn’t tell you specifically, correct?

I asked if you if you believe in your heart that your god is commanding you to do harm to someone and you would tell god 1000% to f-off. 

Then you said if it did communicate with you, you would take it as a mental illness. 

Why can’t you make the next step and think a belief in a god, that doesn’t speak to you and if it did you wouldn’t believe it, is worth believing?

Correct. If G-d talks to me, then I'm experiencing mental illness. I don't know how else to put this... G-d doesn't talk to people. We're past that. G-d would not tell me to murder people, so I'm in no danger of receiving that message. If G-d talked to me and told me to put the roses in the blue vase and not the pink vase, I'd also think I'm experiencing mental illness. I would contact a doctor.

I'm going to answer your question about why I don't take "the next step", but in order to best answer your question, I'd like you to spell out the benefits for me taking those next steps. Like... what's in it for me? What dangers might I experience from enjoying my life as I currently do? You don't need to write too much; a couple sentences will do. I just want a general idea of what you'd expect my life would look like as an atheist as opposed to being who I currently am.

In your opinion are the thousands if not maybe millions of Christians who believe god talks to them mentally ill?

Or does yaweh favor xians over Jews?
Reply
#93

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-10-2024, 04:52 PM)Aliza Wrote: If my G-d starts talking to me, then I am experiencing mental illness, not prophecy.

That is not my personal belief; that is what Judaism teaches. We do not have modern-day prophets, so G-d should not be talking to anyone. As I'm thinking of the Messiah, I don't even think prophecy is a requirement to fulfill that role. 

So, if a Jewish person hears G-d talking to them, it's mental illness. If they murder people because they heard G-d talking to them, it's mental illness and also a crime. No Jewish group will come to their rescue and defend their case on the basis of religion. 


We do not have prophecy, and G-d does not talk to people. Period.
-and so, when god allegedly told his people to slaughter this or that people, what we're actually discussing is some sort of mental (or societal) illness?   Should we apply ostracization or revisionism to this narrative?

That little cutout for "modern day" is doing alot of work, you must realize?  Even within that conveniently limited set we still have people..and yes..jewish people..who have these experiences.  Their jewishness being no defense against either mental illness, or if we want to be more generous, altered states.  I think that we largely agree on this stuff save for you not seeing any parallels between some christians belief in hell because it's there in the black and white and your own seemingly implied belief that there was a time that god did talk to people, and maybe god did say that, and maybe because it wasn't such a bad idea back in the day.
Reply
#94

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-10-2024, 05:52 PM)1Sam15 Wrote:
(01-10-2024, 05:04 PM)Aliza Wrote: Correct. If G-d talks to me, then I'm experiencing mental illness. I don't know how else to put this... G-d doesn't talk to people. We're past that. G-d would not tell me to murder people, so I'm in no danger of receiving that message. If G-d talked to me and told me to put the roses in the blue vase and not the pink vase, I'd also think I'm experiencing mental illness. I would contact a doctor.

I'm going to answer your question about why I don't take "the next step", but in order to best answer your question, I'd like you to spell out the benefits for me taking those next steps. Like... what's in it for me? What dangers might I experience from enjoying my life as I currently do? You don't need to write too much; a couple sentences will do. I just want a general idea of what you'd expect my life would look like as an atheist as opposed to being who I currently am.

In your opinion are the thousands and maybe millions of Christians who believe god talks to them are mentally ill?

Or does yaweh favor xians over Jews?

I think mental illness occurs in equal percentages across the board for all people, so I think most Christians are just deliberately deluding themselves in order to fit in with the narrative they're expecting to see. I think it's a lot of social pressure to believe (or at least claim) that their deity speaks to them, but I think a lot of them know deep down inside that such is not happening. Or it could simply be that they think every thought they have is inspired by their deity.
Reply
#95

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
It's worth noting that this particular type of experience or illness does not, in fact, occur at equal rates across the board for all people. It is nearly exclusive to people who already believe in theistic gods.
The following 1 user Likes Rhythmcs's post:
  • 1Sam15
Reply
#96

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
Quote:We do not have prophecy, and G-d does not talk to people. Period.

And NEVER did!
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
Reply
#97

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-10-2024, 06:17 PM)Rhythmcs Wrote: It's worth noting that this particular type of experience or illness does not, in fact, occur at equal rates across the board for all people.  It is nearly exclusive to people who already believe in theistic gods.

Well, whatever it is, people who hear voices in their heads are mentally ill.
Reply
#98

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
I’m going to write a little bit about Judaism as I learned it years ago. I left it completely behind in my early 20’s and I didn’t have to.

I was taught similar to Aliza. We have a long history and the important parts of it are what we learned from it. Wars were horrid and people behaved badly. Even after receiving the law, we often continued to behave badly. We’re a stubborn people. God congregated us onto a land and allowed us to mature. He gave us laws to keep us a separate people…most having to do with Temple behavior. Then the Temple was destroyed and we were scattered again.

This time, we had become one people but lived all over the place. Yet, our people survived by staying as one community even if separated from others of our kind. God gave us what we needed to continue surviving and no longer needed to micromanage us. We had to learn to live among others yet keep our identity intact.


Jews look to the Torah to learn how to adapt and change. You can’t demand that every story is telling us how to live now. It’s there to teach us lessons and how to become better (“to be light unto nations”). Some ultra Orthodox still try to live by every letter of Torah…the rest, in varying amounts learned to adapt and change to survive amongst other nations. We tried and sometimes failed, other times we succeeded. We look at the laws now as past guidelines not dogma. God lets us figure it out.

There is no demand in Judaism to believe in god…only to try and obey his plans to be that light…each in our own way as best we can. Failures are forgiven. Personal failures as well as community failures…this is why Yom Kippur is one of the holiest days of the year for Jews. You can disbelieve god but you must continue to be a light in the community. Jews have a different relationship to god than Christians. Christianity demands right belief, Judaism demands right behavior (Orthodoxy vs. Orthopraxy). We are expected to live harmoniously amongst others but keep our cultural identity intact.

When I no longer believed in god, I also left the culture behind. I didn’t hate it or even disagree with it, I just wanted out completely. Many atheist Jews remain culturally Jewish and god is ok with that. I’m not sure if god would be ok with me. Seeing as how I don’t believe in any gods, I’m not too worried about it but my family certainly was. They learned to live with it. I wasn’t anti Jewish, I was just uninterested in staying a cultural Jew. Change is a constant in Judaism…just as I don’t think the constitution of the US is a static document, most Jews don’t think the Torah is either. To them it’s a living continuing document of history and how to change.

If any of my understanding is incomplete or wrong, please realize that I’ve been out of the faith for 50 years now! I may have misremembered….
The following 2 users Like pattylt's post:
  • Aliza, Mathilda
Reply
#99

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-10-2024, 05:58 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-10-2024, 05:52 PM)1Sam15 Wrote: In your opinion are the thousands and maybe millions of Christians who believe god talks to them are mentally ill?

Or does yaweh favor xians over Jews?

I think mental illness occurs in equal percentages across the board for all people, so I think most Christians are just deliberately deluding themselves in order to fit in with the narrative they're expecting to see. I think it's a lot of social pressure to believe (or at least claim) that their deity speaks to them, but I think a lot of them know deep down inside that such is not happening. Or it could simply be that they think every thought they have is inspired by their deity.

Isn’t delusion a form of mental illness?


You didn’t answer what you get from your god.?
Reply

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
@Aliza

Are you saying there are no social pressures and self delusion for Jews to believe and do all the rituals?
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)