Welcome to Atheist Discussion, a new community created by former members of The Thinking Atheist forum.

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
#51

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
They are all dying to enter the lion's den and show jesus just how much they are willing to fight for him.

Sick fucks with nothing better to do in my opinion.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
The following 2 users Like Minimalist's post:
  • Szuchow, Chas
Reply
#52

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-09-2024, 04:46 PM)Szuchow Wrote: ... not all theists will be trash but let's be honest here - what kind of believers if not troll or delusional idiot will go to the atheist forum? I sure as shit don't visit christian or muslim forums so I'm deeply suspicious of theist doing reverse.
You have a valid point.

OTOH I do visit a Christianity (writ large) sub-forum on another site occasionally and I know I keep them on their toes and have made some friends there (notably, most do not associate with a denomination other than perhaps incidentally, they are anti-organized-religion in spirit -- it is those folks who can tolerate and even enjoy having their assumptions challenged). My atheism isn't a secret but I don't discuss the non-existence of god explicitly (contrary to moderation rules on the sub-forum) and it's surprising how much is still discussable.

At the same time there's an atheism & agnosticism sub-forum where it's forbidden to proselytize in the other direction, and a religion & spirituality subform where pretty much anything goes. People who can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen, so to speak.

There is a small subset of theists who would visit an exclusively atheist site that I would welcome: those who are curious. I can work with curiosity. You are right that we don't see those here to my recollection ... but I know they exist. Would an honestly curious and respectful believer be recognized as such here, or shooed away based on preconceptions? I'm not sure of the answer to that. Or whether it matters. You point IS well taken that the curious can satisfy their curiosity elsewhere.

Rhetorically we could also ask, was Dave for example in any sense curious and respectful? I would say, far less incurious and disrespectful than most, but still here to grind an axe and score points on some internal scoreboard, and making the mistake of thinking we secretly or otherwise care about that axe. He approached us without sufficient epistemological humility, and I now doubt that he's capable of same.

Still even though he came closer than most yet was still a "miss", notice all the conversation that resulted. I thought it was stimulating though not lasting. I would like to see conversations with theists, if we're going to have them at all, that are interesting and ongoing. I've seen them elsewhere.

All that said ... in what passes for the great scheme of things it's not like I sit around yearning for meaningful conversations with believers or something either. It's just that part of being in this world is getting along IRL with a variety of people who are in some sense or other ridiculous by my lights. And doing that online can be good practice. YMMV.
Reply
#53

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-09-2024, 04:54 PM)Minimalist Wrote: They are all dying to enter the lion's den and show jesus just how much they are willing to fight for him.

Sick fucks with nothing better to do in my opinion.
I noted that Dave said he felt ganged up on in general (when it was he who started so many threads at once) but then in the Coliseum he declared victory and quit very rapidly also, on the basis that there was no possibility of agreement (with his position -- I don't think he ever seriously considered even the possibility of HIM compromising). And then he left altogether when he couldn't gain unearned respect in this particular marketplace of ideas.

I obviously have reservations about tone and spirit here at times but it's not like things would likely have been different if we all had played nice, either. The butthurt isn't ultimately about people spouting blasphemy or calling him names, it was about not granting him legitimacy he never earned. Keeping things more civil would have made that more obvious and denied him so many excuses to dismiss us. In the end he would have still not afforded us the respect that he himself craved.

Near the end, Dave asked me to accept a Buddy request from him and I ignored it because by then my trust in his motives was already eroding*. I felt like even that request was part of his scrabbling for some at least indirect acknowledgment that his positions were "reasonable" on some level and I was not willing to grant him that even for the sake of argument; his reasoning was still indefensible and unsupported. That was his whole schtick, admit that I'm making perfectly reasonable points that can't be disproven.

* Also I find Buddy and Friend declarations to be hokey and contrived and don't engage in them anyway. As I suspect most of you do not, since Dave's Buddy request is the first one I've had here in all these years, lol
The following 4 users Like mordant's post:
  • Szuchow, Dānu, pattylt, Minimalist
Reply
#54

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-09-2024, 05:04 PM)mordant Wrote:
(01-09-2024, 04:46 PM)Szuchow Wrote: ... not all theists will be trash but let's be honest here - what kind of believers if not troll or delusional idiot will go to the atheist forum? I sure as shit don't visit christian or muslim forums so I'm deeply suspicious of theist doing reverse.
You have a valid point.

OTOH I do visit a Christianity (writ large) sub-forum on another site occasionally and I know I keep them on their toes and have made some friends there (notably, most do not associate with a denomination other than perhaps incidentally, they are anti-organized-religion in spirit -- it is those folks who can tolerate and even enjoy having their assumptions challenged). My atheism isn't a secret but I don't discuss the non-existence of god explicitly (contrary to moderation rules on the sub-forum) and it's surprising how much is still discussable.

At the same time there's an atheism & agnosticism sub-forum where it's forbidden to proselytize in the other direction, and a religion & spirituality subform where pretty much anything goes. People who can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen, so to speak.

There is a small subset of theists who would visit an exclusively atheist site that I would welcome: those who are curious. I can work with curiosity. You are right that we don't see those here to my recollection ... but I know they exist. Would an honestly curious and respectful believer be recognized as such here, or shooed away based on preconceptions? I'm not sure of the answer to that. Or whether it matters. You point IS well taken that the curious can satisfy their curiosity elsewhere.

Rhetorically we could also ask, was Dave for example in any sense curious and respectful? I would say, far less incurious and disrespectful than most, but still here to grind an axe and score points on some internal scoreboard, and making the mistake of thinking we secretly or otherwise care about that axe. He approached us without sufficient epistemological humility, and I now doubt that he's capable of same.

Still even though he came closer than most yet was still a "miss", notice all the conversation that resulted. I thought it was stimulating though not lasting. I would like to see conversations with theists, if we're going to have them at all, that are interesting and ongoing. I've seen them elsewhere.

All that said ... in what passes for the great scheme of things it's not like I sit around yearning for meaningful conversations with believers or something either. It's just that part of being in this world is getting along IRL with a variety of people who are in some sense or other ridiculous by my lights. And doing that online can be good practice. YMMV.

As far as I am concerned there isn't much to discuss with theists. I mean if I were curious about their religion then there are books written by experts which for me are far more valuable resource than words of some ignorant clown. It's also not a secret how one becomes religious or what prevents one from throwing the shackles of superstition. I suppose there could be some merit in discussing bible but again apart from Carrier or Ehrman I'm also familiar with works of polish biblical scholars so random believer won't say anything that I didn't already knew (though at least half of the regulars knew more than me). Also I don't really give a shit about bible, at least not enough to dig through my book pile in search for quotes that will be dismissed by some ignoramus thinking that this particular book of fables is word of god.

I dislike theists (christians mostly as I don't particularly care about some religious minorities or religions that don't impact Poland) for their arrogance and what I deem moral cowardice but I can be courteous when shown courtesy. To this date I can't recall any of the theistic trolls showing even most basic respect.
There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.


Socrates.
Reply
#55

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
I'm not even sure the Buddy function does anything.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
Reply
#56

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
There are theists who ostensibly come with amicable intentions, such as Catholic Lady, but once you start undermining their claims to rationality, they quickly turn. I had a an issue with her because everybody at Af liked her because she was so nice, but she hated me.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
The following 2 users Like Dānu's post:
  • Aliza, brewerb
Reply
#57

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
I came to TTA to see what atheists were like first hand. I'd seen so much vitriol on YouTube that I wanted to see first hand if it was true. I was attacked, dog piled, insulted, accused of insincerity, accused of lying, proselytizing, and being a bad person because I'm a theist. I remember two people in particular were nauseated over me and didn't want people treating me kindly at all. 

I can SWEAR one of our mods left early on because they couldn't *stand* that I was a admin of an atheist board. This mod left in a huff over the color of one of the boards and had been complaining about me from the moment we started the forum. He had a total meltdown before vanishing. 

I wouldn't say the amount of baseless hatred is a problem anymore, but it really used to be. It also took some people *years* to accept that *maybe* I'm not here to proselytize. 

And for those that don't remember, we've had another theist admin too who ultimately became an atheist over a personal tragedy. He had a support group in place when he had a crisis of faith. 

We're not defacto bad people just because we drew different conclusions when we examined the same data.
The following 2 users Like Aliza's post:
  • Alan V, Mathilda
Reply
#58

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-09-2024, 05:53 PM)Aliza Wrote: We're not defacto bad people just because we drew different conclusions when we examined the same data.

Of course not. Theists are bad people cause they worship genocidal deity, support and belong to international child molesting ring (catholic church), deny women right to decide about their own body, deny people right to die with dignity, are bigoted against homosexuals... Sins of theists are uncountable and yet they have gall to cry that they're good guys. 

I freely admit that I'm a dick but I will never outdick people supporting child molesting ring with their money to use just one example. This total lack of morals is what I hate about theists. Well, catholics specifically but it's not like others are blameless.
There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.


Socrates.
The following 2 users Like Szuchow's post:
  • 1Sam15, Chas
Reply
#59

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
I’m on a private Catholic forum and have been for quite a while. I went curious as to the Catholic position on certain subjects. When I asked, it was a question, not a statement nor posting a wall of text supporting my view…just a simple question. I’m polite and know my limits. If I challenge their beliefs, I would get flagged and ultimately banned so I simply don’t do that. It wasn’t the point of my joining…I went there to learn the Catholic perspective and I’ve honestly learned quite a lot. It hasn’t changed my beliefs one iota.

They even have a prayer thread where I’m prayed for (including my conversion) and I give it a heart. It doesn’t bother me and they think of me as a nice atheist. That’s a win I’m my book. There are two other atheists, one Jew and one Muslim…while they don’t post as often, they have the same method as I do. Polite, curious and friendly.

I’ve also learned to just stay out of certain discussions…they really have problems with gays and they really think the prolife position should be forced on everyone. I doubt anyone will ever change their minds so I never try…I just read to keep informed.

I’ve also discovered that Catholics range from the hard right to a bit left of center. Moderation had to step in when discussing the Rad Trads (Radical Traditionalists Catholics) because feelings are all over the place from completely agree to completely disagree with that position. If nothing else, I’ve learned that Catholics are a spectrum and while they all seem to like the ideal of a united Catholic Church, they’ll never achieve it.

I enjoy my time spent there but one has to be able to control their responses and be smart about engaging. I’m not there to deconvert anyone but two posters have reached out on PM as they lost their faith…so, I’m available if they reach out to me! I had nothing to do with their deconversion…I just helped them get through the process and that made me happy!
The following 3 users Like pattylt's post:
  • Alan V, Mathilda, Chas
Reply
#60

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-09-2024, 05:17 PM)mordant Wrote:
(01-09-2024, 04:54 PM)Minimalist Wrote: They are all dying to enter the lion's den and show jesus just how much they are willing to fight for him.

Sick fucks with nothing better to do in my opinion.
I noted that Dave said he felt ganged up on in general (when it was he who started so many threads at once) but then in the Coliseum he declared victory and quit very rapidly also, on the basis that there was no possibility of agreement (with his position -- I don't think he ever seriously considered even the possibility of HIM compromising). And then he left altogether when he couldn't gain unearned respect in this particular marketplace of ideas.

I obviously have reservations about tone and spirit here at times but it's not like things would likely have been different if we all had played nice, either. The butthurt isn't ultimately about people spouting blasphemy or calling him names, it was about not granting him legitimacy he never earned. Keeping things more civil would have made that more obvious and denied him so many excuses to dismiss us. In the end he would have still not afforded us the respect that he himself craved.

Near the end, Dave asked me to accept a Buddy request from him and I ignored it because by then my trust in his motives was already eroding*. I felt like even that request was part of his scrabbling for some at least indirect acknowledgment that his positions were "reasonable" on some level and I was not willing to grant him that even for the sake of argument; his reasoning was still indefensible and unsupported. That was his whole schtick, admit that I'm making perfectly reasonable points that can't be disproven.

* Also I find Buddy and Friend declarations to be hokey and contrived and don't engage in them anyway. As I suspect most of you do not, since Dave's Buddy request is the first one I've had here in all these years, lol



Buddy and friend stuff sounds too much like social media crap for my taste.  But if someone sends me a PM they get an answer.

One of the worst xhristards I ever came across at AF.org sent a PM one time asking for my assistance with a book on Zoroastrianism.  He got it...without the usual banter on the boards.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
Reply
#61

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-09-2024, 05:53 PM)Aliza Wrote: I came to TTA to see what atheists were like first hand. I'd seen so much vitriol on YouTube that I wanted to see first hand if it was true. I was attacked, dog piled, insulted, accused of insincerity, accused of lying, proselytizing, and being a bad person because I'm a theist. I remember two people in particular were nauseated over me and didn't want people treating me kindly at all. 

I can SWEAR one of our mods left early on because they couldn't *stand* that I was a admin of an atheist board. This mod left in a huff over the color of one of the boards and had been complaining about me from the moment we started the forum. He had a total meltdown before vanishing. 

I wouldn't say the amount of baseless hatred is a problem anymore, but it really used to be. It also took some people *years* to accept that *maybe* I'm not here to proselytize. 

And for those that don't remember, we've had another theist admin too who ultimately became an atheist over a personal tragedy. He had a support group in place when he had a crisis of faith. 

We're not defacto bad people just because we drew different conclusions when we examined the same data.

If you believe with all your heart your god told you to do harm to someone like the Amalekites, would you obey?
The following 1 user Likes 1Sam15's post:
  • Szuchow
Reply
#62

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-09-2024, 06:27 PM)1Sam15 Wrote: If you believe with all your heart your god told you to do harm to someone like the Amalekites, would you obey?

Such would be against Jewish law.

We're outside of the age of prophecy and G-d does not speak to us.
Reply
#63

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-09-2024, 06:31 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-09-2024, 06:27 PM)1Sam15 Wrote: If you believe with all your heart your god told you to do harm to someone like the Amalekites, would you obey?

Such would be against Jewish law.

We're outside of the age of prophecy and G-d does not speak to us.

Not quite what I asked.

Would you obey or disobey god that you believe with all your heart is commanding you to do harm to another?
The following 1 user Likes 1Sam15's post:
  • Szuchow
Reply
#64

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-09-2024, 06:35 PM)1Sam15 Wrote:
(01-09-2024, 06:31 PM)Aliza Wrote: Such would be against Jewish law.

We're outside of the age of prophecy and G-d does not speak to us.

Not quite what I asked.

Would you obey or disobey god that you believe with all your heart is commanding you to do harm to another?

Disobey. 1000% 

I would be breaking Jewish law and secular law by committing these atrocities.
The following 1 user Likes Aliza's post:
  • Szuchow
Reply
#65

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-09-2024, 06:37 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-09-2024, 06:35 PM)1Sam15 Wrote: Not quite what I asked.

Would you obey or disobey god that you believe with all your heart is commanding you to do harm to another?

Disobey. 1000% 

I would be breaking Jewish law and secular law by committing these atrocities.

What happens to you if you break Jewish law?
Reply
#66

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-09-2024, 06:39 PM)1Sam15 Wrote:
(01-09-2024, 06:37 PM)Aliza Wrote: Disobey. 1000% 

I would be breaking Jewish law and secular law by committing these atrocities.

What happens to you if you break Jewish law?

Then I'd feel disappointed in myself and I strive to do better next time.

If it was a moderate crime I might be censured by my community.

A major crime like murder would be handled in secular law.
Reply
#67

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-09-2024, 06:43 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-09-2024, 06:39 PM)1Sam15 Wrote: What happens to you if you break Jewish law?

Then I'd feel disappointed in myself and I strive to do better next time.

If it was a moderate crime I might be censured by my community.

A major crime like murder would be handled in secular law.

But, no consequence for disobeying god?
Reply
#68

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-09-2024, 06:45 PM)1Sam15 Wrote:
(01-09-2024, 06:43 PM)Aliza Wrote: Then I'd feel disappointed in myself and I strive to do better next time.

If it was a moderate crime I might be censured by my community.

A major crime like murder would be handled in secular law.

But, no consequence for disobeying god?

If the matter is resolved while I'm alive, then no. If I ate pork, and felt badly about it and committed myself not to do it again, then the matter is taken care of.

If I didn't know or care about eating pork, then the sin carries much less weight and it wouldn't really matter if I ate it.
Reply
#69

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-09-2024, 05:53 PM)Aliza Wrote: I came to TTA to see what atheists were like first hand. I'd seen so much vitriol on YouTube that I wanted to see first hand if it was true. I was attacked, dog piled, insulted, accused of insincerity, accused of lying, proselytizing, and being a bad person because I'm a theist. I remember two people in particular were nauseated over me and didn't want people treating me kindly at all. 

I can SWEAR one of our mods left early on because they couldn't *stand* that I was a admin of an atheist board. This mod left in a huff over the color of one of the boards and had been complaining about me from the moment we started the forum. He had a total meltdown before vanishing. 

I wouldn't say the amount of baseless hatred is a problem anymore, but it really used to be. It also took some people *years* to accept that *maybe* I'm not here to proselytize. 

And for those that don't remember, we've had another theist admin too who ultimately became an atheist over a personal tragedy. He had a support group in place when he had a crisis of faith. 

We're not defacto bad people just because we drew different conclusions when we examined the same data.
Aliza, I have to ask ... what motivated you to hang in there for the years it took to be accepted as non-threatening? Just a dogged determination to see if it was even possible?
Reply
#70

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-09-2024, 07:24 PM)mordant Wrote:
(01-09-2024, 05:53 PM)Aliza Wrote: I came to TTA to see what atheists were like first hand. I'd seen so much vitriol on YouTube that I wanted to see first hand if it was true. I was attacked, dog piled, insulted, accused of insincerity, accused of lying, proselytizing, and being a bad person because I'm a theist. I remember two people in particular were nauseated over me and didn't want people treating me kindly at all. 

I can SWEAR one of our mods left early on because they couldn't *stand* that I was a admin of an atheist board. This mod left in a huff over the color of one of the boards and had been complaining about me from the moment we started the forum. He had a total meltdown before vanishing. 

I wouldn't say the amount of baseless hatred is a problem anymore, but it really used to be. It also took some people *years* to accept that *maybe* I'm not here to proselytize. 

And for those that don't remember, we've had another theist admin too who ultimately became an atheist over a personal tragedy. He had a support group in place when he had a crisis of faith. 

We're not defacto bad people just because we drew different conclusions when we examined the same data.
Aliza, I have to ask ... what motivated you to hang in there for the years it took to be accepted as non-threatening? Just a dogged determination to see if it was even possible?

Nah, I made a handful of long-term friends who were worth sticking around for. @Tartarus Sauce was my BFF for like... 7 years. JennyB was great,  and a handful of people who have come and gone over the years. 

And yeah, there have been people who have dictated to me what I believe based not on what I've said but what they concluded, and then judged me for it... but fuck them. The friends I've made were/are great.
The following 4 users Like Aliza's post:
  • pattylt, Mathilda, epronovost, mordant
Reply
#71

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-09-2024, 06:31 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-09-2024, 06:27 PM)1Sam15 Wrote: If you believe with all your heart your god told you to do harm to someone like the Amalekites, would you obey?

Such would be against Jewish law.

We're outside of the age of prophecy and G-d does not speak to us.

Convenient.  Though it seems like a really poor way to frame the response.  As though it was some other way around inside the age of prophecy, whenever that's supposed to have been - or if your god really did say to do so.

Wouldn't a simple "they were wrong about that" have handled the thing with far less ambiguity?
The following 1 user Likes Rhythmcs's post:
  • 1Sam15
Reply
#72

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
I do actually see practical benefits in having the occasional theist on here who wants to convert everyone. Not just to act as a chew toy and keep up engagement but to keep our skills sharp. I personally don't argue to win but for the satisfaction of finding new and amusing ways to trip them up. It's a game to me. But it only works if the theist is responding and discussing. If all they are doing is the equivalent of shouting scripture in a public place then it's just noise we can do without. Hence the no proselytising rule. Conversely it's also not much use if everyone piles on the single theist and bullies them off the forum. But even that I can understand. This is a space where atheists can be themselves free of the religious indoctrination they get exposed to in their daily life. It's not surprising that some atheists get triggered.

Most people here are confident in their lack of belief. We've seen the same arguments demolished a thousand times. But for the newly deconverted or those lurking it can be empowering to see how theist arguments can be effectively dismantled in a myriad of ways.  They won't remember all the counter arguments or logical fallacies that are pointed out in a single thread but if they remember just one or two then it can make a huge difference. Many people are raised surrounded by theists who rely on their numbers to intimidate and pressure doubters to remain in their religion. If you're not confident in your ability to argue, have social anxiety, aren't assertive or are still having doubts, having an awkward question or counter argument to hand can be useful in giving you space to breath when you have an entire family or workplace using a gish galop against you.
The following 3 users Like Mathilda's post:
  • pattylt, Aliza, mordant
Reply
#73

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
There's also a real challenge in debating a theist troll. Not in spotting the flaws in their argument but in getting them to recognise it.
The following 4 users Like Mathilda's post:
  • brewerb, pattylt, 1Sam15, Aliza
Reply
#74

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
(01-09-2024, 11:14 PM)Mathilda Wrote: There's also a real challenge in debating a theist troll. Not in spotting the flaws in their argument but in getting them to recognise it.

Sigh, so many attempts, so many fails. I must be 'challenged'.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
The following 1 user Likes brewerb's post:
  • mordant
Reply
#75

OT Tabernacle: Eight Ancient Parallels
There is a part of their corrupt thinking unit that refuses to accept that their perfect story is anything but.
The following 1 user Likes no one's post:
  • pattylt
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)