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Chance or Design
#76

Chance or Design
(01-04-2024, 12:45 AM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-04-2024, 12:43 AM)Dānu Wrote: Very confident and 100% are not the same thing.  You know what I think?  I think you lack the skills needed to accurately assess how confident you should be.

You could be right. My skills probably could use use some upgrading.

Fair enough. Thank you for your candor.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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#77

Chance or Design
(01-03-2024, 11:02 PM)epronovost Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 10:59 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: One other thing I would like to add to the thought of my last post.

God could speak the worlds into existence, but He could not speak away sin, it would have been a violation of His own Law.

So He had to send a Redeemer (Jesus Christ) to take that sin away from man.

Would sending a redeemer not be speaking away sin in a sense or are you speaking in terms of spellcraft?

God could not speak away the sin immediately in the Garden or forgive it at that moment. The crime had to take it's course.

The only thing that could take away that sin was/is the Blood of Christ, But Christ had to come as a man because it took the blood of man to atone for the sins of man. So this took a great period of time considering God chose to create a people from scratch "Israel" to be the people and place the Redeemer would be born.
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#78

Chance or Design
(01-04-2024, 12:57 AM)Charlie24 Wrote: God could not speak away the sin immediately in the Garden or forgive it at that moment. The crime had to take it's course.

Why would a powerful god have to wait at all?  That makes no sense.
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#79

Chance or Design
(01-03-2024, 10:54 PM)epronovost Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 10:47 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: Mans sin coming into the world cursed all of creation

Quote please.

PS: As a Christian aren't God and Jesus the same person?

That is one if not the biggest argument in Christianity.

Just a few weeks ago I was in this argument and it never seems to end. 

The Apostle John said that there are 3 that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, these 3 are One.

Well, some will take that "One" and say it is one person manifesting Himself as 3 different people.

But who is Jesus speaking to when He often talks to the Father? For example, Jesus looked up into heaven and said, "I thank you Father that you hear me, I know that you always hear me...." or "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." etc., etc.

Who is Jesus speaking to if their are not 3 individual persons each separate from one another but One in essence?

So it rages on.
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#80

Chance or Design
(01-04-2024, 01:05 AM)Astreja Wrote:
(01-04-2024, 12:57 AM)Charlie24 Wrote: God could not speak away the sin immediately in the Garden or forgive it at that moment. The crime had to take it's course.

Why would a powerful god have to wait at all?  That makes no sense.

Even God honors His own Laws, He does not exempt Himself from it.

The Scripture repeatedly presents God honoring His own Word and Laws above all things.

Psalms 138:2

 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
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#81

Chance or Design
(01-03-2024, 11:19 PM)brewerb Wrote: He sees you masturbating Charlie, even when it's mental.

He sees everything we all do.
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#82

Chance or Design
(01-04-2024, 01:28 AM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 11:19 PM)brewerb Wrote: He sees you masturbating Charlie, even when it's mental.

He sees everything we all do.

Nope, just you.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#83

Chance or Design
(01-04-2024, 01:09 AM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 10:54 PM)epronovost Wrote: Quote please.

PS: As a Christian aren't God and Jesus the same person?

That is one if not the biggest argument in Christianity.

Just a few weeks ago I was in this argument and it never seems to end. 

The Apostle John said that there are 3 that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, these 3 are One.

Well, some will take that "One" and say it is one person manifesting Himself as 3 different people.

But who is Jesus speaking to when He often talks to the Father? For example, Jesus looked up into heaven and said, "I thank you Father that you hear me, I know that you always hear me...." or "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." etc., etc.

Who is Jesus speaking to if their are not 3 individual persons each separate from one another but One in essence?

So it rages on.

Oh I am well aware of the inanities Christians have to go through to consider a dead man as a God and not only as a God, but the one and only God. I was asking about your position on this issue. Are you an orthodox Christian who consider Jesus to be God incarnate or are you an unorthodox one who consider Jesus a man, a demi-God, a sophisticated illusion and fully divine, etc.
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#84

Chance or Design
(01-04-2024, 02:36 AM)epronovost Wrote:
(01-04-2024, 01:09 AM)Charlie24 Wrote: That is one if not the biggest argument in Christianity.

Just a few weeks ago I was in this argument and it never seems to end. 

The Apostle John said that there are 3 that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, these 3 are One.

Well, some will take that "One" and say it is one person manifesting Himself as 3 different people.

But who is Jesus speaking to when He often talks to the Father? For example, Jesus looked up into heaven and said, "I thank you Father that you hear me, I know that you always hear me...." or "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." etc., etc.

Who is Jesus speaking to if their are not 3 individual persons each separate from one another but One in essence?

So it rages on.

Oh I am well aware of the inanities Christians have to go through to consider a dead man as a God and not only as a God, but the one and only God. I was asking about your position on this issue. Are you an orthodox Christian who consider Jesus to be God incarnate or are you an unorthodox one who consider Jesus a man, a demi-God, a sophisticated illusion and fully divine, etc.

I believe Jesus is exactly who He said He was "The Messiah" The Promised One sent from God the Father.

He said He was the Son of God, making Himself equal with God which makes Him God the Son.

Yes, He was both Man and God at the same time, having laid aside His power as God, He was man just we are but He could not lay aside the fact of His deity, that He is God in the flesh.
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#85

Chance or Design
(01-04-2024, 02:59 AM)Charlie24 Wrote: I believe Jesus is exactly who He said He was "The Messiah" The Promised One sent from God the Father.

He said He was the Son of God, making Himself equal with God which makes Him God the Son.

Yes, He was both Man and God at the same time, having laid aside His power as God, He was man just we are but He could not lay aside the fact of His deity, that He is God in the flesh.

There is a lot of contradictions in there.

First, the Messiah is supposed to be a man who will restore the Kingdom of Israel and his name is supposed to be Emmanuel if memory serves me right.

If he claims to be the Son of God that makes him less than God of the Father. Hebrews (and Romans too for that matter) were strongly patriarchal societies. A father has authority over their sons, even their adult sons.

Jesus did not laid aside his power as God either since he performed many, many miracles which require divine magic too.

Despite all of these contradictions, it seems to be that you are a fairly orthodox Christian. thanks for the info.
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#86

Chance or Design
(01-04-2024, 03:35 AM)epronovost Wrote:
(01-04-2024, 02:59 AM)Charlie24 Wrote: I believe Jesus is exactly who He said He was "The Messiah" The Promised One sent from God the Father.

He said He was the Son of God, making Himself equal with God which makes Him God the Son.

Yes, He was both Man and God at the same time, having laid aside His power as God, He was man just we are but He could not lay aside the fact of His deity, that He is God in the flesh.

There is a lot of contradictions in there.

First, the Messiah is supposed to be a man who will restore the Kingdom of Israel and his name is supposed to be Emmanuel if memory serves me right.

If he claims to be the Son of God that makes him less than God of the Father. Hebrews (and Romans too for that matter) were strongly patriarchal societies. A father has authority over their sons, even their adult sons.

Jesus did not laid aside his power as God either since he performed many, many miracles which require divine magic too.

Despite all of these contradictions, it seems to be that you are a fairly orthodox Christian. thanks for the info.

It's ok that you missed it, even the masters of the Law in Israel missed it.

Yes, He is equal with God and is God.


Isaiah 9:6-7

"For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder. And His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this."
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#87

Chance or Design
(01-03-2024, 10:59 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 10:47 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: Mans sin coming into the world cursed all of creation, as the Scripture says, even the ground is cursed bringing forth weeds and briars which were not there before.

God placed man in the Garden to tend it and care for it, he gave them charge over the animals. Just as an innocent dear child is born with cancer, so did the innocent animals fall prey to mans sin.

I can't begin to tell you how terrible sin actually is and how God and Jesus both have wept and anguished over the position that man has caused for himself.

But thank God, He has not forgotten us and has made a way for man to come back in fellowship.

One other thing I would like to add to the thought of my last post.

God could speak the worlds into existence, but He could not speak away sin, it would have been a violation of His own Law.

So He had to send a Redeemer (Jesus Christ) to take that sin away from man.

Why did yahweh wait so long to fix its fuckup?

Everything would be a lot better if godjesus sent jesusgod to spank Adam and Eve, right?
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#88

Chance or Design
(01-03-2024, 08:52 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: The definition of "Chance" from Oxford Languages, in the form of it's use in this thread.

"the occurrence and development of events in the absence of any obvious design."

Evolution has no "obvious designer" therefore it is by "chance." Regardless of what any scientist with his extreme knowledge may say, This is the reason I'll not pursue their theories, it's a total failure on the part of common sense.

It is impossible for this complex universe we live in to be by a chance occurrence as they have laid it out.

How is it possible that an intelligent person can believe this? I have my own theories on that, but would like to hear from you on the matter. If anyone is interested..   

Your understanding of evolution predictably ignorant.

Plants and animals that survive and out-reproduce others needing the same resources proliferate.
The only chance involved is genetic and environmental change.
The key is time.
It really is that simple.
“Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. 
Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.”
― Napoleon Bonaparte
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#89

Chance or Design
(01-03-2024, 09:05 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 08:59 PM)Dexta Wrote: Design is not the same as designer. The process of evolution could be said to be dictated/designed by the laws of physics (gravity, the strong and weak nuclear forces etc). Dawkins has said specifically that the process of biological evolution is the very opposite of chance, it is natural selection, governed by survival of the fittest and the laws of physics/nature.

Every design has a designer. Come on now, let's face this for what it is, not this educated nonsense you have learned from a bunch of apostates. Speak reasonably, and in context of a sound mind.

There is no design. No designer required.
“Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. 
Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.”
― Napoleon Bonaparte
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#90

Chance or Design
(01-03-2024, 09:20 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 09:16 PM)epronovost Wrote: The nature of that "designer" though is not set. Not every "design" is the result of a conscious creative process. Take snowflakes for example. They have patterns and designs, but are not the result of a conscious creative process. They are a crystallin matrix produced by laws of physics and the material in which they are made (water in their case though they are not the only crystallin formation).

This type of axiom is thus completely worthless.

You are using the results of creation as a means to describe the designer of creation.

You can do better than that, i hiope.

There is no design, so no designer.
“Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. 
Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.”
― Napoleon Bonaparte
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#91

Chance or Design
(01-03-2024, 09:41 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 09:38 PM)Dānu Wrote: In what way are my questions madness?  Sounds more like you're trying to duck the question.  Are you being dishonest again?

It seems to me you are dodging the reality of truth by the reasoning of questioning and reinventing the definitions that you don't like.

Once again, there is no fucking design!
“Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. 
Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.”
― Napoleon Bonaparte
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#92

Chance or Design
(01-04-2024, 10:54 PM)Chas Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 09:41 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: It seems to me you are dodging the reality of truth by the reasoning of questioning and reinventing the definitions that you don't like.

Once again, there is no fucking design!

So then your theory is all by chance, and you choose to believe that!
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#93

Chance or Design
(01-05-2024, 01:45 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-04-2024, 10:54 PM)Chas Wrote: Once again, there is no fucking design!

So then your theory is all by chance, and you choose to believe that!

"Either chance or design" is a false dichotomy.  There are also self-organization and evolution.  Even the laws of nature, so-called, were likely self-organized.

But you are too poorly informed to even understand what such ideas signify, how the world is much more complex than you imagine.

The problem with theists, and with Christians in particular, is that they are so arrogant and self-righteous that they think they can make pronouncements on cosmology, history, psychology, neuroscience, physics, chemistry, and even Biblical studies without any kind of expertise in such areas of study, all because some ancient, inaccurate, and obsolete book told them so.  That's not just intellectual laziness and dishonesty.  That's absolutely nuts from an outsider's perspective.
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#94

Chance or Design
(01-03-2024, 08:52 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: Evolution has no "obvious designer" therefore it is by "chance."
Nope, evolution has to follow the laws of nature. No chance involved. The chance of water flowing uphill is 0%.


(Un)related question: How big can a troll grow when you keep feeding it?
R.I.P. Hannes
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#95

Chance or Design
(01-05-2024, 02:37 PM)Alan V Wrote:
(01-05-2024, 01:45 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: So then your theory is all by chance, and you choose to believe that!

"Either chance or design" is a false dichotomy.  There are also self-organization and evolution.  Even the laws of nature, so-called, were likely self-organized.

But you are too poorly informed to even understand what such ideas signify, how the world is much more complex than you imagine.

The problem with theists, and with Christians in particular, is that they are so arrogant and self-righteous that they think they can make pronouncements on cosmology, history, psychology, neuroscience, physics, chemistry, and even Biblical studies without any kind of expertise in such areas of study, all because some ancient, inaccurate, and obsolete book told them so.  That's not just intellectual laziness and dishonesty.  That's absolutely nuts from an outsider's perspective.

If one demands to live outside the realm of reality, God will allow that. He has given man free will to choose Him or not to.

If you choose to change the definitions to your own liking, that something can exist without a prior design, then have it.

But you will not be taken seriously by those who are living rationally and using common sense.
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#96

Chance or Design
(01-05-2024, 02:41 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 08:52 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: Evolution has no "obvious designer" therefore it is by "chance."
Nope, evolution has to follow the laws of nature. No chance involved. The chance of water flowing uphill is 0%.


(Un)related question: How big can a troll grow when you keep feeding it?

So I'm a troll because I have a different belief system than you?

I think society has given that reasoning a definition.
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#97

Chance or Design
(01-05-2024, 01:45 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-04-2024, 10:54 PM)Chas Wrote: Once again, there is no fucking design!

So then your theory is all by chance, and you choose to believe that!

Would you say yahweh came into existence by chance @Charlie24?
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#98

Chance or Design
(01-05-2024, 03:42 PM)1Sam15 Wrote:
(01-05-2024, 01:45 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: So then your theory is all by chance, and you choose to believe that!

Would you say yahweh came into existence by chance @Charlie24?

I will know that when I am no longer a mortal man with limited knowledge.

The resurrection changes man from mortal to immortal, and God will not have to tell me, I will know all things then that the mortal mind cannot comprehend now.

The Scripture makes no attempt to explain the things that mortal man is not capable of understanding.
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#99

Chance or Design
(01-05-2024, 03:47 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-05-2024, 03:42 PM)1Sam15 Wrote: Would you say yahweh came into existence by chance @Charlie24?

I will know that when I am no longer a mortal man with limited knowledge.

The resurrection changes man from mortal to immortal, and God will not have to tell me, I will know all things then that the mortal mind cannot comprehend now.

The Scripture makes no attempt to explain the things that mortal man is not capable of understanding.

So you're saying that you know you are not capable of understanding this. How do you know this?
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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Chance or Design
(01-05-2024, 03:51 PM)Dānu Wrote:
(01-05-2024, 03:47 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: I will know that when I am no longer a mortal man with limited knowledge.

The resurrection changes man from mortal to immortal, and God will not have to tell me, I will know all things then that the mortal mind cannot comprehend now.

The Scripture makes no attempt to explain the things that mortal man is not capable of understanding.

So you're saying that you know you are not capable of understanding this.  How do you know this?

Of course, no man has the capacity to know where God came from, that is a totally different realm of understanding.

Just as no man truly knows the relationship between the Father and Son, how they are independent of each other but yet One.

No man can understand how that Christ was sent to Redeem man through a virgin birth, being conceived by the Holy Spirit in woman rather than by mans sperm.

So on and so on, the things that mortal man has no capacity to understand.
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