Welcome to Atheist Discussion, a new community created by former members of The Thinking Atheist forum.

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Chance or Design
#26

Chance or Design
(01-03-2024, 09:57 PM)epronovost Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 09:24 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: Definition of "Design" again from Oxford Languages.

"a plan or drawing produced to show the look and function or workings of a building, garment, or other object before it is built or made."

Animals, celestial bodies, geological formations, etc are thus not a design according to this definition since it's not a garment, buildings (or part there oft) or object. They are in a different category. How can nature be designed if it's not a building, a garment or an object?

But I'm telling you that the animals, celestial bodies, geological formations, etc., HAD to have a Designer, or how do you explain their existence. All you can say is by chance, right?
Reply
#27

Chance or Design
(01-03-2024, 10:08 PM)Dānu Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 10:02 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: Nope, I see your entire post as the attempt to dismantle and rebuild a perfectly clear definition to suit your own agenda.

But I expect it, that's what you have learned from your teachers to avoid what we call common sense, in order to reinvent something into what you want it to be.

You're being dishonest again.  Do you know nothing of your god's commandments?

Enlighten me.
Reply
#28

Chance or Design
Did cancer come about by chance?
Reply
#29

Chance or Design
(01-03-2024, 10:15 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 10:08 PM)Dānu Wrote: You're being dishonest again.  Do you know nothing of your god's commandments?

Enlighten me.

Are you trolling now? This doesn't suit you.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
Reply
#30

Chance or Design
(01-03-2024, 10:16 PM)SeaPigeon Wrote: Did cancer come about by chance?

Personally I believe it's a plague from Satan that God has allowed in this world of sinners.

But I can't prove that from Scripture, it's just my opinion.

But let me say this, Satan can't do anything that is not approved by God, we learn this from the Book of Job.
Reply
#31

Chance or Design
(01-03-2024, 10:16 PM)Dānu Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 10:15 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: Enlighten me.

Are you trolling now?  This doesn't suit you.

Enlighten me on the commandments of God you were speaking of.

I'm not sure what you meant by that.
Reply
#32

Chance or Design
(01-03-2024, 10:02 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 09:54 PM)Dānu Wrote: No, simply trying to introduce you to one of the central problems of intelligent design.  That is how to define the hallmarks of design such that things that legitimately are designed are recognized, and things that aren't designed aren't.  William Dembski, noted intelligent design theorist and ostensible smart guy tried and largely failed to capture the essence of design.  

But there's an even bigger mystery here lurking just beneath the surface.  That mystery is the question of just what we as human beings are doing when we design, and how do we do that, and, more to the point, what is required for the ability to design?  It's notable that God designing creation is an analogy to man designing things, but is man's ability to design things a supernatural ability, or is it simply the result of the incredibly complicated machinations of the human mind?  If there is nothing unnatural about the mind, and therefore unnatural about our ability to design, then by analogy there need not be anything unnatural that is the cause of the variety of life on this planet, or other things that theists suggest are the product of supernatural design.

Nope, I see your entire post as the attempt to dismantle and rebuild a perfectly clear definition to suit your own agenda.

But I expect it, that's what you have learned from your teachers to avoid what we call common sense, in order to reinvent something into what you want it to be.

[Image: appeal-to-common-sense.jpg]
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
The following 2 users Like Dānu's post:
  • epronovost, pattylt
Reply
#33

Chance or Design
(01-03-2024, 10:20 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 10:16 PM)SeaPigeon Wrote: Did cancer come about by chance?

Personally I believe it's a plague from Satan that God has allowed in this world of sinners.

But I can't prove that from Scripture, it's just my opinion.

But let me say this, Satan can't do anything that is not approved by God, we learn this from the Book of Job.


So god has allowed innocent children to die from cancer because???

It wasn't his fault.
Someone ate some fruit.
It's all bullshit?
Reply
#34

Chance or Design
(01-03-2024, 10:12 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: But I'm telling you that the animals, celestial bodies, geological formations, etc., HAD to have a Designer,

According to the definition you have provided that would be misnomer. These things are not objects or buildings (or parts of buildings) so they can't have a designer and they don't have a design. 

Since it's a misnomer another term should be used. What would be that term and it's proper definition?   

Quote:or how do you explain their existence.

You can explain the existence of animals and plants by the fact they were born from previous animals and plants up to the point where you fall into the domain of biochemistry and talk about how matter interacts with matter in an ever changing environment submitted to a variety of forces. Celestial bodies existence can also be explained by interactions of matter and energy in an ever changing environment submitted to a variety of forces.

Then again, questions of origin and existence, at least how you frame them in your discussions, are causal chains. It seems you want to know what causes things. A regression to infinite might be a possibility when you talk about the whole of the universe, but I would be of the opinion that this is an error. Belief in a multiverse or cyclical universe (or both) would posit a regression to infinity for example.

Since causality is a feature of the universe, something that happens only within the universe, you cannot use a simple causal chain to explain the universe. It would be like trying to solve the chicken or egg question without appealing to anything outside of it; you either get a regression to infinity or an impossibility. That's why you can't use a feature of the universe to explain the whole of the universe. It's all common sense.
Reply
#35

Chance or Design
(01-03-2024, 10:28 PM)SeaPigeon Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 10:20 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: Personally I believe it's a plague from Satan that God has allowed in this world of sinners.

But I can't prove that from Scripture, it's just my opinion.

But let me say this, Satan can't do anything that is not approved by God, we learn this from the Book of Job.


So god has allowed innocent children to die from cancer because???

It wasn't his fault.
Someone ate some fruit.
It's all bullshit?

Welcome to the HORRORS of sin, my friend. It has placed an endless curse on man, and God takes it dead serious, no matter how you feel about it.

There's not a single one of us who being placed in the position of Adam and Eve, wouldn't have done the exact same thing.

We are born in sin, we are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners.

Go ahead and blame God for your sin, blame Him for everything you find wrong in this world, that's what unbelievers do with no understanding of God whatsoever.
Reply
#36

Chance or Design
(01-03-2024, 10:34 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: Welcome to the HORRORS of sin, my friend. It has placed an endless curse on man, and God takes it dead serious, no matter how you feel about it.

Euh, then why do animas also suffer from disease death and cancer if God placed an endless curse on man. I read Genesis. God curses men, women and snakes. Each has their own specific curses brought upon them. No other animal or plant is cursed but those three yet plants and animals do suffer from cancer and a variety of diseases. Women are not the only animals who have painful and potentially deadly childbirth either.
The following 2 users Like epronovost's post:
  • SeaPigeon, isbelldl
Reply
#37

Chance or Design
(01-03-2024, 10:38 PM)epronovost Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 10:34 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: Welcome to the HORRORS of sin, my friend. It has placed an endless curse on man, and God takes it dead serious, no matter how you feel about it.

Euh, then why do animas also suffer from disease death and cancer if God placed an endless curse on man. I read Genesis. God curses men, women and snakes. Each has their own specific curses brought upon them. No other animal or plant is cursed but those three yet plants and animals do suffer from cancer and a variety of diseases. Women are not the only animals who have painful and potentially deadly childbirth either.

The snake definitely got away with a light sentence.
Reply
#38

Chance or Design
(01-03-2024, 10:38 PM)epronovost Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 10:34 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: Welcome to the HORRORS of sin, my friend. It has placed an endless curse on man, and God takes it dead serious, no matter how you feel about it.

Euh, then why do animas also suffer from disease death and cancer if God placed an endless curse on man. I read Genesis. God curses men, women and snakes. Each has their own specific curses brought upon them. No other animal or plant is cursed but those three yet plants and animals do suffer from cancer and a variety of diseases. Women are not the only animals who have painful and potentially deadly childbirth either.

Mans sin coming into the world cursed all of creation, as the Scripture says, even the ground is cursed bringing forth weeds and briars which were not there before.

God placed man in the Garden to tend it and care for it, he gave them charge over the animals. Just as an innocent dear child is born with cancer, so did the innocent animals fall prey to mans sin.

I can't begin to tell you how terrible sin actually is and how God and Jesus both have wept and anguished over the position that man has caused for himself.

But thank God, He has not forgotten us and has made a way for man to come back in fellowship.
Reply
#39

Chance or Design
(01-03-2024, 10:47 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 10:38 PM)epronovost Wrote: Euh, then why do animas also suffer from disease death and cancer if God placed an endless curse on man. I read Genesis. God curses men, women and snakes. Each has their own specific curses brought upon them. No other animal or plant is cursed but those three yet plants and animals do suffer from cancer and a variety of diseases. Women are not the only animals who have painful and potentially deadly childbirth either.

Mans sin coming into the world cursed all of creation, as the Scripture says, even the ground is cursed bringing forth weeds and briars which were not there before.

God placed man in the Garden to tend it and care for it, he gave them charge over the animals. Just an innocent dear child is born with cancer, so did the innocent animals fall prey to mans sin.

I can't begin to tell you how terrible sin actually and how God and Jesus both have wept and anguished over the position that man has caused for himself.

But thank God, He has not forgotten us and has made a way for man to come back in fellowship.

Why put the tree there then?
It was a loaded gun.
The following 1 user Likes SeaPigeon's post:
  • isbelldl
Reply
#40

Chance or Design
I'm about to do something (or NOT do something).  What the something itself is isn't relevant.  It could be anything.

How would I know whether doing it (or NOT doing it) would constitute a sin?

Is there a master sin catalogue that identifies every possible sin?  That's a logistical impossibility.  Or can sin be distilled down to a principal, or set of principals?  Clearly identified as such, so there's no chance of mistake?

For example, a principal could be "doesn't displease god".  But in order for that that have actionable meaning, we'd need to know what pisses god off.  So then we're back to a catalogue (and infinite opportunity for misinterpretation, misunderstanding, mistake).
Reply
#41

Chance or Design
God certainly likes the cards stacked in his favour.
Reply
#42

Chance or Design
(01-03-2024, 10:47 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: Mans sin coming into the world cursed all of creation

Quote please.

PS: As a Christian aren't God and Jesus the same person?
Reply
#43

Chance or Design
Quote:Mans sin coming into the world cursed all of creation, as the Scripture says,


I hope you know that makes your 'god' out to be a real scumbag.

Marcion was right about that fucker.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
The following 1 user Likes Minimalist's post:
  • isbelldl
Reply
#44

Chance or Design
(01-03-2024, 10:34 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 10:28 PM)SeaPigeon Wrote: So god has allowed innocent children to die from cancer because???

It wasn't his fault.
Someone ate some fruit.
It's all bullshit?

Welcome to the HORRORS of sin, my friend. It has placed an endless curse on man, and God takes it dead serious, no matter how you feel about it.

There's not a single one of us who being placed in the position of Adam and Eve, wouldn't have done the exact same thing.

We are born in sin, we are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners.

Go ahead and blame God for your sin, blame Him for everything you find wrong in this world, that's what unbelievers do with no understanding of God whatsoever.

So you admit there are things in nature that aren't there by God's design. So how do we tell those apart from things which are?
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
The following 2 users Like Dānu's post:
  • epronovost, isbelldl
Reply
#45

Chance or Design
(01-03-2024, 10:47 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 10:38 PM)epronovost Wrote: Euh, then why do animas also suffer from disease death and cancer if God placed an endless curse on man. I read Genesis. God curses men, women and snakes. Each has their own specific curses brought upon them. No other animal or plant is cursed but those three yet plants and animals do suffer from cancer and a variety of diseases. Women are not the only animals who have painful and potentially deadly childbirth either.

Mans sin coming into the world cursed all of creation, as the Scripture says, even the ground is cursed bringing forth weeds and briars which were not there before.

God placed man in the Garden to tend it and care for it, he gave them charge over the animals. Just as an innocent dear child is born with cancer, so did the innocent animals fall prey to mans sin.

I can't begin to tell you how terrible sin actually is and how God and Jesus both have wept and anguished over the position that man has caused for himself.

But thank God, He has not forgotten us and has made a way for man to come back in fellowship.

One other thing I would like to add to the thought of my last post.

God could speak the worlds into existence, but He could not speak away sin, it would have been a violation of His own Law.

So He had to send a Redeemer (Jesus Christ) to take that sin away from man.
Reply
#46

Chance or Design
(01-03-2024, 10:59 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 10:47 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: Mans sin coming into the world cursed all of creation, as the Scripture says, even the ground is cursed bringing forth weeds and briars which were not there before.

God placed man in the Garden to tend it and care for it, he gave them charge over the animals. Just as an innocent dear child is born with cancer, so did the innocent animals fall prey to mans sin.

I can't begin to tell you how terrible sin actually is and how God and Jesus both have wept and anguished over the position that man has caused for himself.

But thank God, He has not forgotten us and has made a way for man to come back in fellowship.

One other thing I would like to add to the thought of my last post.

God could speak the worlds into existence, but He could not speak away sin, it would have been a violation of His own Law.
[emphasis mine]

Citation needed. Bible quotations are accepted here.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
Reply
#47

Chance or Design
(01-03-2024, 10:59 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 10:47 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: Mans sin coming into the world cursed all of creation, as the Scripture says, even the ground is cursed bringing forth weeds and briars which were not there before.

God placed man in the Garden to tend it and care for it, he gave them charge over the animals. Just as an innocent dear child is born with cancer, so did the innocent animals fall prey to mans sin.

I can't begin to tell you how terrible sin actually is and how God and Jesus both have wept and anguished over the position that man has caused for himself.

But thank God, He has not forgotten us and has made a way for man to come back in fellowship.

One other thing I would like to add to the thought of my last post.

God could speak the worlds into existence, but He could not speak away sin, it would have been a violation of His own Law.

So He had to send a Redeemer (Jesus Christ) to take that sin away from man.

Would sending a redeemer not be speaking away sin in a sense or are you speaking in terms of spellcraft?
Reply
#48

Chance or Design
(01-03-2024, 10:59 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 10:47 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: Mans sin coming into the world cursed all of creation, as the Scripture says, even the ground is cursed bringing forth weeds and briars which were not there before.

God placed man in the Garden to tend it and care for it, he gave them charge over the animals. Just as an innocent dear child is born with cancer, so did the innocent animals fall prey to mans sin.

I can't begin to tell you how terrible sin actually is and how God and Jesus both have wept and anguished over the position that man has caused for himself.

But thank God, He has not forgotten us and has made a way for man to come back in fellowship.

One other thing I would like to add to the thought of my last post.

God could speak the worlds into existence, but He could not speak away sin, it would have been a violation of His own Law.

So He had to send a Redeemer (Jesus Christ) to take that sin away from man.

What law? How could it be a violation of his own law if he made the law?
Have you been drinking the cooking sherry?
Reply
#49

Chance or Design
This discussion is pointless. Charlie assumes he knows our position and we definitely know his.

I’d like to know exactly how much Charlie knows about science. Charlie, pretend you’re an atheist and are describing science to a Christian. How would you explain our position? Don’t be snarky or purposely stupid sounding. Show us that you understand the science you are rejecting.
The following 1 user Likes pattylt's post:
  • isbelldl
Reply
#50

Chance or Design
(01-03-2024, 08:52 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: Regardless of what any scientist with his/her/their extreme knowledge may say,

Corrected for you.
The following 4 users Like Mathilda's post:
  • Minimalist, pattylt, epronovost, Aliza
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)