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How Christians Should Approach Atheists
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(01-03-2024, 02:57 AM)Dave Armstrong Wrote:(01-02-2024, 10:51 PM)SeaPigeon Wrote: https://armstronginstitute.org/239-uncovering-the-truth Didn't say it was Dave I just found it strangely amusing.
Christibois:
Their thin skin is easily rustled. Their gall is easily offended. Their persecution complex is always at the ready.
"Whenever a self-described "Christian" treats you badly, keep this on hand and shove it in their face. If they don't respect these clear NT injunctions, then I highly recommend having nothing to do with them"
This is the poster's own advice, so I'm going for it. I'm having nothing to do with him.
Formerly WiCharlie
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01-03-2024, 01:31 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-03-2024, 03:05 PM by brewerb.)
How Christians Should Approach Atheists (01-03-2024, 03:11 AM)Dave Armstrong Wrote: I had also had a severe existential crisis in the form of a six-month bout of clinical depression (which I have never had at all since). I'm glad I did, though, because I can relate to those who struggle with depression. All the members of my family have at one time or another. I find this interesting and hope you don't mind if I ask a few questions. Did you seek professional help, receive a diagnosis or treatment from a medical professional? Do you think your depression was biological or psychological (intrinsic vs extrinsic)? Regarding 'All the members of my family have at one time or another', do you think that is because depression occurs in your family (genetic) or that there might be a shared/similar environmental factor/experience? Were the family members depression relatively short lived also and did they seek treatment? If you choose to respond I might have some follow up questions.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental.
01-03-2024, 03:21 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-03-2024, 03:21 PM by mordant.)
How Christians Should Approach Atheists (01-03-2024, 05:15 AM)Dave Armstrong Wrote:I agree, to do a deep dive on this would be a derail, but it just interested me and I was making a point. You DID bring it up. And yes I can read so I saw "might". I will say though that a lot of your "mights" are ... stretchy to me, so you're right, maybe not worth bringing up?? IDK. If your worldview requires tossing out a lot of circumstantial evidence that's not really probative, so that the reader might be more open to your arguments based on hypotheticals rather than hard facts ... maybe you need to work on the more substantive stuff because for folks like us, that's the only stuff with a prayer (ha) of convincing us.(01-03-2024, 05:06 AM)mordant Wrote: Where here does he say, "I believe in god, but reject him anyway"? For the record, my counter-theory about Huxley's thinking isn't much stronger than yours, even to me. People, particularly people with a high output of writing, extemporize all the time and without the better context of a more thorough grasp of Huxley's oeuvre and bio than I happen to possess, I am loathe to go any further with speculation here than I have. And being there are only so many hours in a day ...
Someone sent me a private message and I went to reply, only to find out that I couldn't because he blocked me.
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[F]anatical atheists . . . can’t hear the music of the spheres. (Einstein, 8-7-41)
(01-03-2024, 02:49 AM)vulcanlogician Wrote:(01-02-2024, 08:13 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Humanity has invented thousands of gods over the millennia but this moron is just positive that his is the real deal. You saw Minimalist actually make a reasoned argument?! Now that I'd love to see!
[F]anatical atheists . . . can’t hear the music of the spheres. (Einstein, 8-7-41)
(01-03-2024, 01:17 PM)WICharlie Wrote: "Whenever a self-described "Christian" treats you badly, keep this on hand and shove it in their face. If they don't respect these clear NT injunctions, then I highly recommend having nothing to do with them" Promise?
[F]anatical atheists . . . can’t hear the music of the spheres. (Einstein, 8-7-41)
01-03-2024, 03:45 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-03-2024, 03:46 PM by Dānu.)
How Christians Should Approach Atheists (01-03-2024, 03:38 PM)Dave Armstrong Wrote:(01-03-2024, 02:49 AM)vulcanlogician Wrote: You can sometimes. I've seen you yourself do it. Wasn't it Jesus who advocated turning the other cheek? I don't find your arguments ideal either, but I think trying to meet someone halfway is better than these insults.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies. Vivekananda
brewerb:
Did you seek professional help, receive a diagnosis or treatment from a medical professional? Yes. Brief treatment. Do you think your depression was biological or psychological (intrinsic vs extrinsic)? Probably both. To the extent that it can be successfully treated with drugs (or even amino acids, as in my wife's case), it obviously has a chemical proponent, and that seems to be true in most cases. But environment certainly plays a role too. Things happened in my life to bring it on, then (IMO) chemicals in my brain started changing. I actually think I was healed of it because it has never come back. Usually if a person has this serious of a depression at 18, it indicates that it'll be an ongoing problem. But not in my case. And my natural disposition is very sunny and optimistic anyway. Regarding 'All the members of my family have at one time or another', do you think that is because depression occurs in your family (genetic) or that there might be a shared/similar environmental factor/experience? I hear that there is some genetic connection. I think there is some reason why women especially seem to be disproportionately depressed in our culture. Were the family members depression relatively short lived also and did they seek treatment? Some sort of treatment in all cases, yes. I can't go into details, but there are conditions in play, and also big contributing environmental causes in one case. Bad experiences created an "opportunity" for depression to arise. If you choose to respond I might have some follow up questions. That's fine. I just can't be too specific because of privacy issues. I'm happy to talk about my own dreadful experience.
[F]anatical atheists . . . can’t hear the music of the spheres. (Einstein, 8-7-41)
01-03-2024, 04:03 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-03-2024, 04:50 PM by Dave Armstrong.)
How Christians Should Approach Atheists (01-03-2024, 03:45 PM)Dānu Wrote:(01-03-2024, 03:38 PM)Dave Armstrong Wrote: You saw Minimalist actually make a reasoned argument?! Now that I'd love to see! Yes, if someone strikes you, and the situation is right. He also advised His disciples to purchase a sword. So He wasn't a pacifist. "Turn the other cheek" is proverbial advice, meaning that it can have exceptions according to circumstance. It's a common biblical literary form because it was common in Jewish culture. Jesus never said that we can't be sarcastic and humorous and give a sharp retort. He Himself did it all the time, and He is our (Christians') model. I gave several examples in one of my posts. Minimalist has from the beginning sent -- and only sent -- rank insults of the most extreme nature my way (often including what we would consider blasphemy). I am entitled to make mere humorous one-line retorts back. Mine aren't personal. He punches and I punch back: in my usual manner when someone is being a total jerk: sarcastic and smart-ass humor. But he clearly despises and detests me because I'm a Christian. But see, this is the thing: Christians in an atheist forum -- this is ALWAYS the case -- aren't entitled to ever defend themselves against the most ridiculous and outrageous insults to the slightest degree. Nothing is ever done about insults. There is no moderation. Anything goes. If we do respond, we're "oversensitive" ("brewerb" kept claiming I had a "chip on my shoulder"; others claim I have a persecution complex, ad nauseam . . .) or people pretend that a reply to an insult is the moral equivalent of the insult (which it isn't at all). We just can't win. It's a double standard. So in the long run the best policy will be to utterly ignore Minimalist and the ten or so others who are acting the same way; and only reply to those who can carry on a mature, adult conversation in good spirits and an open mind. I knew this was the case, but I just wanted to make it clear that if it weren't for the restrictions inherent to a Christian in an atheist forum, I wouldn't take this sort of juvenile anal-retentive bullshit from anyone. And now I will do my best to UTTERLY ignore Minimalist and those of his mindset: even including one-line retorts.
[F]anatical atheists . . . can’t hear the music of the spheres. (Einstein, 8-7-41)
01-03-2024, 04:19 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-03-2024, 04:23 PM by Dānu.)
How Christians Should Approach Atheists (01-03-2024, 04:03 PM)Dave Armstrong Wrote:(01-03-2024, 03:45 PM)Dānu Wrote: Wasn't it Jesus who advocated turning the other cheek? I don't find your arguments ideal either, but I think trying to meet someone halfway is better than these insults. No offense or accusation, but this is not far from the whining of a concern troll. Good for you on the decision to ignore him. Aliza recently noted that the anti-theism on this forum is particularly acute. This forum is made up largely of refugees from another forum whose owner pulled the plug on the forum. I had been an occasional visitor, but that aspect is one of the things that turned me off. I didn't much care for that culture. It's strange because I frequent another forum where people are harsher and more aggressive, but it tends to have less of that specifically anti-theist element. I recall that when I visited the forum whose ashes this forum formed out of, I found them particularly vicious. I guess they're no less so now, though I think that element is less pronounced with the admixture of members from other quarters. (ETA: Some of the currently more hostile members are not from that other forum, AFAIK.)
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies. Vivekananda (01-03-2024, 04:19 PM)Dānu Wrote: No offense or accusation, but this is not far from the whining of a concern troll. Good for you on the decision to ignore him. Aliza recently noted that the anti-theism on this forum is particularly acute. This forum is made up largely of refugees from another forum whose owner pulled the plug on the forum. I had been an occasional visitor, but that aspect is one of the things that turned me off. I didn't much care for that culture. It's strange because I frequent another forum where people are harsher and more aggressive, but it tends to have less of that specifically anti-theist element. I recall that when I visited the forum whose ashes this forum formed out of, I found them particularly vicious. I guess they're no less so now, though I think that element is less pronounced with the admixture of members from other quarters. Thanks for the background.
[F]anatical atheists . . . can’t hear the music of the spheres. (Einstein, 8-7-41)
01-03-2024, 04:59 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-03-2024, 05:01 PM by Dānu.)
How Christians Should Approach Atheists (01-03-2024, 04:03 PM)Dave Armstrong Wrote: Minimalist has from the beginning sent -- and only sent -- rank insults of the most extreme nature my way (often including what we would consider blasphemy). I am entitled to make mere humorous one-line retorts back. Mine aren't personal. He punches and I punch back: in my usual manner when someone is being a total jerk: sarcastic and smart-ass humor. But he clearly despises and detests me because I'm a Christian. One other thing. What you have written here is false. Perhaps you exaggerate?
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies. Vivekananda (01-03-2024, 04:59 PM)Dānu Wrote:(01-03-2024, 04:03 PM)Dave Armstrong Wrote: Minimalist has from the beginning sent -- and only sent -- rank insults of the most extreme nature my way (often including what we would consider blasphemy). I am entitled to make mere humorous one-line retorts back. Mine aren't personal. He punches and I punch back: in my usual manner when someone is being a total jerk: sarcastic and smart-ass humor. But he clearly despises and detests me because I'm a Christian. Not that I know of.
[F]anatical atheists . . . can’t hear the music of the spheres. (Einstein, 8-7-41)
(01-03-2024, 03:52 PM)Dave Armstrong Wrote: brewerb: Interesting that you did not respond to me directly. Thank you for your responses, no follow up questions.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental.
01-04-2024, 03:07 AM
(This post was last modified: 01-04-2024, 03:08 AM by Fireball.)
How Christians Should Approach Atheists
I camembert the last time I discussed anything of substance with an xtian. Time for a cheese-off!
If you get to thinking you’re a person of some influence, try ordering somebody else’s dog around.
(01-04-2024, 03:07 AM)Fireball Wrote: I camembert the last time I discussed anything of substance with an xtian. Time for a cheese-off! Sorry to hear that. I've had lots of wonderful dialogues with atheists. My very favorite among 1000 or so that I have online was with an atheist, way back in 2001.
[F]anatical atheists . . . can’t hear the music of the spheres. (Einstein, 8-7-41)
01-04-2024, 01:37 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-04-2024, 01:40 PM by brewerb.)
How Christians Should Approach Atheists (01-04-2024, 03:07 AM)Fireball Wrote: I camembert the last time I discussed anything of substance with an xtian. Time for a cheese-off! Intentionally derailing a thread, you're a Muenster. ![]()
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental.
(01-02-2024, 06:36 PM)Dave Armstrong Wrote: Are there some atheists who know that God exists and reject Him? In my opinion, yes; they exist. Well, that's all good and dandy, but... there's always a but... those will be the same people who read the Commandment "thou shall not kill" and then twist it into "actually, in the original hebrew, it was more 'thou shall not murder' which only applies to people of the same tribe or country or whatever. This way all the subsequent war in the holy book is perfectly fine". Under that view, the "all men" in those snippets you provided can be interpreted to mean only men from their community of fellow believers, leaving atheists out of this group.... and women. PS: Why are you using the "apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont" font? Copy-pasta much?
pocaracas:
Well, that's all good and dandy, but... there's always a but... those will be the same people who read the Commandment "thou shall not kill" and then twist it into "actually, in the original hebrew, it was more 'thou shall not murder' which only applies to people of the same tribe or country or whatever. The word does indisputably mean murder, which is why it's translated accordingly in many modern translations. And the prohibition is not just for killing Hebrews. According to Dictionary.com, the English "kill" can also mean murder. In the KJV of 1611, rightly understood in its overall context, "kill" in the Ten Commandments meant "murder." This way all the subsequent war in the holy book is perfectly fine". Any given war has to be judged on its own merits. There are also wars of judgment in the Bible, where God has determined that a group of people are beyond all hope and so judges them by means of the Israelites. He also judges the Israelites repeatedly when they screw up, so there is no favoritism here. And that's another huge discussion, and a very poorly understood concept. Under that view, the "all men" in those snippets you provided can be interpreted to mean only men from their community of fellow believers, leaving atheists out of this group.... and women. But that's not what it means, so it's a moot point. There was a full understanding of "neighbor" in the OT, expanded into an inclusive and tolerant notion of the "Gentile" in the NT. I started a thread about that in this forum. PS: Why are you using the "apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont" font? Copy-pasta much? Beats me. I don't even know what that is. Force of habit?
[F]anatical atheists . . . can’t hear the music of the spheres. (Einstein, 8-7-41)
(01-04-2024, 10:38 PM)Dave Armstrong Wrote: pocaracas: True, I'm not disputing that it's supposed to be "murder". What I'm disputing is that people then justify killing anyone from the out-group with this. In today's "global village", there is really no out-group, but our monkey brains can still think that anyone from another group is fair game. (01-04-2024, 10:38 PM)Dave Armstrong Wrote: This way all the subsequent war in the holy book is perfectly fine". Any war is abhorrent. Any god worthy of that name would know that and have nothing to do with any war. The problem of evil is one of the great issues with accepting the existence of any god worthy of praise or worship. (01-04-2024, 10:38 PM)Dave Armstrong Wrote: Under that view, the "all men" in those snippets you provided can be interpreted to mean only men from their community of fellow believers, leaving atheists out of this group.... and women. I'm glad you see it that way. But that doesn't stop others from seeing it the way I pointed out... and that's a big issue. (01-04-2024, 10:38 PM)Dave Armstrong Wrote: PS: Why are you using the "apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont" font? Copy-pasta much? Also, try to use the source mode when replying and make full use of BBcode: Per post: ![]() Or make it default in your control panel: ![]() (01-04-2024, 10:38 PM)Dave Armstrong Wrote: There are also wars of judgment in the Bible, where God has determined that a group of people are beyond all hope and so judges them by means of the Israelites. He also judges the Israelites repeatedly when they screw up, so there is no favoritism here. And that's another huge discussion, and a very poorly understood concept.Nope, its very well understood. Its very simple. Its barbaric and immoral. And anyone, including an alleged deity, who supports this is a brute. The god you worship allegedly has ordered to kill an entire people, including newborns, plus their livestock. You cant get worse than that. Nevertheless you are worshiping this entity.
R.I.P. Hannes
(01-05-2024, 01:10 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:(01-04-2024, 10:38 PM)Dave Armstrong Wrote: There are also wars of judgment in the Bible, where God has determined that a group of people are beyond all hope and so judges them by means of the Israelites. He also judges the Israelites repeatedly when they screw up, so there is no favoritism here. And that's another huge discussion, and a very poorly understood concept.Nope, its very well understood. Its very simple. Its barbaric and immoral. And anyone, including an alleged deity, who supports this is a brute. The god you worship allegedly has ordered to kill an entire people, including newborns, plus their livestock. You cant get worse than that. Nevertheless you are worshiping this entity. That's what happens when men create gods.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental.
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