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"Moses Didn't Exist" File #1
#26

"Moses Didn't Exist" File #1
Hitchens nailed it!

And so did Dawkins.

Quote:The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

Richard Dawkins
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#27

"Moses Didn't Exist" File #1
(01-03-2024, 05:59 AM)Minimalist Wrote: Hitchens nailed it!

And so did Dawkins.

Quote:The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

Richard Dawkins

1 Corinthians 14:38 (KJV) But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
[F]anatical atheists . . . can’t hear the music of the spheres. (Einstein, 8-7-41)
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#28

"Moses Didn't Exist" File #1
(01-03-2024, 06:08 AM)Dave Armstrong Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 05:59 AM)Minimalist Wrote: Hitchens nailed it!

And so did Dawkins.

1 Corinthians 14:38 (KJV) But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
Let's not waste energy on ad hominems, okay?

I am not a fan of Dawkins in general, but have no substantive disagreement of his description of Yaweh quoted by Min. The fact that you would (1) have to engage in a lot of rationalizing / minimizing / reinterpretation or maybe whataboutism about passages that reflect favorably on Yaweh's character and then (2) didn't even do that but just dismissed Dawkins rather than his argument ... might be a "tell".

My own former tribe was dispensationalist and so their escape hatch was that man and god were under a different "economy" or contract at the time but that doesn't circumvent the problem created if you claim that Jesus is, while fully human, also fully Yaweh. Unless you're a closet Marcionite or something.

I mean what is "ignorant" about observing that the OT version of god is, just to pick one point, jealous? God actually explicitly self-describes as a "jealous god", apparently to create an atmosphere of fear around the possibility of making him feel thusly. Jealousy is one of the baser human failings and it's based in insecurity, and it's an excellent support for the notion that jealous insecure humans concocted this god. You have to either claim that "jealous" means something else or try to claim that it doesn't mean much "in context" or in balance with some other less unsavory attributes. And THEN for us to even debate your arguments we would be in the tiresome position of doing so agreeing for the sake of argument that these supposed attributes are anything other than unsubstantiatable assertions in the first place.

(As an aside, JealousGod also is just an all-powerful version of the only sort of human ruler known in the era in which it was written about ... a monarch or despot or warlord. No other thought was thinkable so in designing the attributes of god, this was more relatable as people accepted that they had to walk on eggshells around absolute rulers used to fawning obsequiousness and always having their own way; after all they could "smite" you on a whim and with impunity).

If you reflect on this, you can maybe understand why some here are so DONE with chewing on Christian dogma at all. We never get past basic objections with apologists. Generally you cannot get a coherent and clear definition for the deity, you cannot get intersubjectively verifiable evidence, they are impervious to observations about logical contradictions in their assertions. We just ending up arguing about whether this ill (or un-)defined unsubstantiated deity is monstrous or not, despite that it self-defines as jealous, that it IS asserted in your urtext to inflict things like pestilence and being swallowed whole by the earth on humans, and so forth.

To the point of this thread ... if you prove that Moses was an historical figure substantially as described in the Pentateuch, you've demonstrated that the Bible is accurate in one of its accounts but still a long way from defining and substantiating your chosen deity. It is just another "stretchy" "coincidence? I think not!" type of observation.
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#29

"Moses Didn't Exist" File #1
(01-03-2024, 06:08 AM)Dave Armstrong Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 05:59 AM)Minimalist Wrote: Hitchens nailed it!

And so did Dawkins.

1 Corinthians 14:38 (KJV) But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

There is a similar line from the Chuangzi in which a Taoist sage is asking how he should manage his new ward, a young prince. The mentor says, "If he wants to be a child, let him be a child." I've been told by multiple Christians that we owe much of the civility and respect for human dignity in our society to Paul specifically, and Christianity generally. I don't know that any say as much, but they seem to imply that were it not for Christianity, our lives would still be brutish and short. I have to wonder if this isn't a form of selection effect, that Christianity served as a touchstone for such things, but it is not alone in that it alone could have served as the germ for such things. Chuangzi, being in a land far from the mainline development of the first world is an unlikely candidate, but as we see in John, we owe much to the Hellenes in addition to these Jewish philosophers.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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#30

"Moses Didn't Exist" File #1
(01-03-2024, 06:08 AM)Dave Armstrong Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 05:59 AM)Minimalist Wrote: Hitchens nailed it!

And so did Dawkins.

1 Corinthians 14:38 (KJV) But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

And you are.

Bible-thumping moron.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#31

"Moses Didn't Exist" File #1
(01-03-2024, 03:54 PM)mordant Wrote: To the point of this thread ... if you prove that Moses was an historical figure substantially as described in the Pentateuch, you've demonstrated that the Bible is accurate in one of its accounts but still a long way from defining and substantiating your chosen deity. It is just another "stretchy" "coincidence? I think not!" type of observation.
THIS!

Whats the point of showing that Moses might have existed, in whatsoever form. As i said in my previous post it reeks of "there, Bible was right about existence of a certian individual, therefor my specific (!) god exists (too)".

What if not only Moses existed but ....100 other worldly claims are (likely) to be true? Thus god? If not, well, then the Bible is rehabilitated as being more accurate than we previously thought, so what? Whats the point of bringing this to an atheist (aka: occupied with religion and lack thereof) forum instead of an archeologist forum?

I dont see the point, other than trying to "prove" god by shoehorning Moses into history. But.....i am waiting to be corrected.
R.I.P. Hannes
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#32

"Moses Didn't Exist" File #1
(01-03-2024, 05:22 PM)Deesse23 Wrote: What if not only Moses existed but ....100 other worldly claims are (likely) to be true? Thus god? If not, well, then the Bible is rehabilitated as being more accurate than we previously thought, so what? Whats the point of bringing this to an atheist (aka: occupied with religion and lack thereof) forum instead of an archeologist forum?

As an historian, I would be extremely surprised to find someone having actual solid evidence for the existence of Moses and, more important, proof of the Exodus. The depiction of the Exodus from Egypt in the Bible is so grand and spectacular though that proofs should come in mountains and yet all that has managed to be demonstrated so far is that about 10K Canaanites were taken as slaves around 1400 BC. Modern day Palestine would remain in Egyptian control until the 11th-10th century BC though which makes any story of slaves fleeing Egypt to Israel akin to a 19th century black slave fleeing Georgia to South Carolina... a rather pointless move.
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#33

"Moses Didn't Exist" File #1
Further, mass slavery was not a major factor in the Egyptian economy.  The building projects of Egypt were done by a corvee labor system not slaves. 

Slaves are expensive.  They have to be fed, housed, guarded, etc. even when the Nile floods made working impossible whereas your own citizens who are "doing their duty" to the king are sent home when they were needed to work in the fields.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#34

"Moses Didn't Exist" File #1
(01-02-2024, 08:54 PM)mordant Wrote: My own position is that I do not think society is ready for an end to religion, so while I think ultimately a gradual end of same (taking a very long view here, on the order of a millennium) would be best, I think if I had a magic button I could press to make religion and all memory of it vanish instantly, I would be very hesitant to push it; it would be rather like expecting someone still recovering from surgery to run a marathon.

Also, I am not really certain that humanity as a species is even capable of irreligion as some sort of default. We unbelievers may delude ourselves to think it's even possible. Religion exists and succeeds because of powerful tendencies like agency inference, confirmation bias and motivated reasoning. I have come to the belief that humans are so given over to these things that it's difficult if not impossible to transmit understanding of rational thought and logical fallacies from generation to generation (only a tiny minority of people in my experience are born with excellent bullshit filters, it has to be developed usually by an expensive and time consuming process of making and learning from mistakes that doesn't always or even often take place), therefore, it may be impossible for the species as a whole to raise itself out of the easy defaults that keep it metaphorically returning to its own vomit.

I always saw such stance as arrogance - we can shatter chains of indoctrination but Other(s) can't. Religion spreads thanks to indoctrination and feed on the misery being as Marx aptly put it opiate of the masses. There is no inherent need for religion, it's just one more disease, simply one with atypical mode of transfer.

Species does not return to it's vomit but rather is being led to it whether because of good intentions or lust for power that religions guarantees.
There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.


Socrates.
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#35

"Moses Didn't Exist" File #1
(01-03-2024, 06:08 AM)Dave Armstrong Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 05:59 AM)Minimalist Wrote: Hitchens nailed it!

And so did Dawkins.

1 Corinthians 14:38 (KJV) But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Huh. Why the bible quote?
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#36

"Moses Didn't Exist" File #1
(01-03-2024, 06:57 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 06:08 AM)Dave Armstrong Wrote: 1 Corinthians 14:38 (KJV) But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Huh. Why the bible quote?

Because troll gonna troll and proselytizer gonna proselytize.
There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.


Socrates.
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#37

"Moses Didn't Exist" File #1
mordant:

I mean what is "ignorant" about observing that the OT version of god is, just to pick one point, jealous? God actually explicitly self-describes as a "jealous god", apparently to create an atmosphere of fear around the possibility of making him feel thusly. Jealousy is one of the baser human failings and it's based in insecurity, and it's an excellent support for the notion that jealous insecure humans concocted this god. You have to either claim that "jealous" means something else or try to claim that it doesn't mean much "in context" or in balance with some other less unsavory attributes.

It does mean something else. It's a species of the non-literal literary device of anthropopathism (see a fairly concise half-page explanation of it). God the Father is not only not "jealous" -- He has no emotions whatsoever in classical theism, and according to the belief of the vast majority of Christian belief-systems. Whenever it appears at face value in the Bible that He does, it's anthropopathism. The Bible has over 400 forms of literary techniques. I have an 1100-page book four feet away from me as I write (Figures of Speech Used in the Bible) that examines these in painstaking detail.
[F]anatical atheists . . . can’t hear the music of the spheres. (Einstein, 8-7-41)
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#38

"Moses Didn't Exist" File #1
(01-03-2024, 06:57 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 06:08 AM)Dave Armstrong Wrote: 1 Corinthians 14:38 (KJV) But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Huh. Why the bible quote?

That was how I dealt with the relentless inanities of Minimalist when he "replies" to me (with humor), but henceforth I will absolutely ignore him. So please don't bring him up to me again. I'm interested in non-hostile mutually respectful dialogue.
[F]anatical atheists . . . can’t hear the music of the spheres. (Einstein, 8-7-41)
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#39

"Moses Didn't Exist" File #1
If you reflect on this, you can maybe understand why some here are so DONE with chewing on Christian dogma at all.

The primary reason you provided for this disenchantment was the motif of the "jealous God." But I showed how you have completely misunderstood it. It's a non-literal scriptural specimen of anthropopathism. Thus you are rejecting a straw man in this instance.

And this is one of the reasons I am here: to correct plain old misunderstandings among atheists about Christianity and the Bible. That's good for everyone. It's a win-win thing.

I sure that you don't want to reject straw men anymore than I want to (who wants to be quixotic?). So it's good to find out if you have done so in a particular case regarding the Bible and Christianity. I would think you would be glad to learn this, too, since it makes the biblical / Christian God less objectionable than you had thought (and those who believe in Him less objectionable too).

I'm helping you to have a more accurate understanding of the Christianity and the Bible that you reject. You can keep rejecting them if you choose (and most likely you will), but at least you'll have a more accurate and sophisticated comprehension of that which you reject. And if I can accomplish that regarding any erroneous view of the Bible and Xianity, then I'm very happy about it. I have fulfilled my function as an educator.
[F]anatical atheists . . . can’t hear the music of the spheres. (Einstein, 8-7-41)
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#40

"Moses Didn't Exist" File #1
Deesse23:

Whats the point of showing that Moses might have existed, in whatsoever form. [?]

Simply because it's been repeatedly denied here, along with the corresponding notion that the OT is supposedly a bunch of myths and made-up nonsense. Moses is a good way to cut through all those claims. 

The Bible does indeed preserve true and verifiable history, and that's why I am writing about Moses: to refute those who categorically (or massively) deny this. 

If someone came to you and asserted that the earth is 6000 years old, you might want to educate him or her with basic geology. Or you might not. If you didn't, it would most likely be because you thought the person was beyond reason. I don't think that atheists (generally very intelligent and well-read) are beyond reason. And I think that if I argue by means of good science and historical substantiation, citing academic experts, that I can actually persuade some folks here of some things. But if no one here is interested in any of that discussion (if just for "fun" or curiosity's sake, if nothing else), just let me know and I'll be on my way.

If an atheist came to believe that Moses existed and did some or all of the things that the Bible attributes to him, their atheism would remain fully intact. Nothing is at stake there. No need to fear . . . But from where I sit, you would have more knowledge and true beliefs than you did before, and that's a good thing for anyone, because truth and knowledge are great things. The more of them the better!
[F]anatical atheists . . . can’t hear the music of the spheres. (Einstein, 8-7-41)
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#41

"Moses Didn't Exist" File #1
(01-03-2024, 06:00 PM)epronovost Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 05:22 PM)Deesse23 Wrote: What if not only Moses existed but ....100 other worldly claims are (likely) to be true? Thus god? If not, well, then the Bible is rehabilitated as being more accurate than we previously thought, so what? Whats the point of bringing this to an atheist (aka: occupied with religion and lack thereof) forum instead of an archeologist forum?

As an historian, I would be extremely surprised to find someone having actual solid evidence for the existence of Moses and, more important, proof of the Exodus. The depiction of the Exodus from Egypt in the Bible is so grand and spectacular though that proofs should come in mountains and yet all that has managed to be demonstrated so far is that about 10K Canaanites were taken as slaves around 1400 BC. Modern day Palestine would remain in Egyptian control until the 11th-10th century BC though which makes any story of slaves fleeing Egypt to Israel akin to a 19th century black slave fleeing Georgia to South Carolina... a rather pointless move.

What are your credentials as an historian? I can't find out anything about anyone here. I could be talking to an Oxford Professor or the county dog catcher. I think it would be good for people to at least say something about themselves. I said from the beginning that I am a Catholic apologist and an author. I'm not an academic, but I touch on a lot of things that are academic in nature, in my writings.

As to Moses, and what I have to say, keep reading, if you are curious about the case that can be made. It's a cumulative argument with many converging strands. I don't claim absolute proof. I claim that his existence is very plausible, the more one learns about relevant facts of many different types that can be brought to bear.

It'll take a long time, because I was asked by a moderator to not put up so many threads so fast. I apologized for that (not knowing I was doing anything wrong). It seemed to me that not much else was happening, so I was just trying to generate discussion (and I certainly did that; and a few atheists have said that they were glad that I did so, because it was getting stale and boring here). That's why I did it. I love discussion. But I have to go slow now because I wish to abide by the rules of this forum.

I'll just keep making replies to stuff, as I'm doing today . . . I can always go back to the writing I was doing before I came here, to take up more of my time (replying to a 17th century Reformed Protestant theologian).
[F]anatical atheists . . . can’t hear the music of the spheres. (Einstein, 8-7-41)
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#42

"Moses Didn't Exist" File #1
Do you believe that Moses had a magic shaft Dave?
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#43

"Moses Didn't Exist" File #1
(01-03-2024, 07:59 PM)SeaPigeon Wrote: Do you believe that Moses had a magic shaft Dave?

He was able to attract a hot black woman, so maybe.
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#44

"Moses Didn't Exist" File #1
(01-03-2024, 07:59 PM)SeaPigeon Wrote: Do you believe that Moses had a magic shaft Dave?

Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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#45

"Moses Didn't Exist" File #1
(01-03-2024, 07:59 PM)SeaPigeon Wrote: Do you believe that Moses had a magic shaft Dave?
Answer my question and I'll answer yours:

Do you believe that the universe began out of nothing, and that the resultant atoms had the inherent power to evolve into everything we see now, by random chance, with no "superior reasoning" behind it (Einstein) or a creator-God (Christianity & Judaism); and do you have reasons for believing these things, if you do, and exactly how are they easier to believe than a mundane thing like Moses having a physical object by which he could do God-enabled miracles?

I'll play this game with you if you like. You may eventually regret starting it. But give it your best shot.
[F]anatical atheists . . . can’t hear the music of the spheres. (Einstein, 8-7-41)
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#46

"Moses Didn't Exist" File #1
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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#47

"Moses Didn't Exist" File #1
god is make believe. It has nothing to do with anything.
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#48

"Moses Didn't Exist" File #1
(01-03-2024, 06:57 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 06:08 AM)Dave Armstrong Wrote: 1 Corinthians 14:38 (KJV) But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Huh. Why the bible quote?

It should be obvious by now that he can't do much more than cut and paste horseshit from his fucking bible.  We have seen this trick recently from another bible-thumping moron.  Probably not the same person but they all do have the same act.  When in doubt - pretend that the fucking bible matters in the 21st century!

As far as I am concerned he is just another spammer.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#49

"Moses Didn't Exist" File #1
(01-03-2024, 07:45 PM)Dave Armstrong Wrote: What are your credentials as an historian?

I have a master's degree in history from the university of Quebec in Montreal. my specialty is Hellenistic history. I also have a teaching degree and currently teach history for 7th and 8th graders in a public school of the poorest neighborhood of the city.

I wrote my master thesis on Epirus and Illyrian cultural exchanges and alliances.
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#50

"Moses Didn't Exist" File #1
(01-03-2024, 08:10 PM)Dave Armstrong Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 07:59 PM)SeaPigeon Wrote: Do you believe that Moses had a magic shaft Dave?
Answer my question and I'll answer yours:

Do you believe that the universe began out of nothing, and that the resultant atoms had the inherent power to evolve into everything we see now, by random chance, with no "superior reasoning" behind it (Einstein) or a creator-God (Christianity & Judaism); and do you have reasons for believing these things, if you do, and exactly how are they easier to believe than a mundane thing like Moses having a physical object by which he could do God-enabled miracles?

I'll play this game with you if you like. You may eventually regret starting it. But give it your best shot.

Calm down Dave. It was a simple question about your beliefs.

I'm just wondering why it's so important to you to make a case for the existence of Moses.

Without his staff he's nothing.

I'm happy to chat about the origin of the universe with you when you've answered my question.
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