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The Desires of the Believer's Heart
#26

The Desires of the Believer's Heart
(01-02-2024, 03:15 PM)1Sam15 Wrote:
(01-02-2024, 03:00 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: The apostle Paul told us "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." Of course he was speaking to believers when he said this.

This physical body we have is just the covering of our real person, the spirit and soul of man is the real man.

So when a believer dies his outer covering or body goes to the grave, but real you ascends into heaven to be with Christ.

I’m curious how you interpret what these word say to mean something different please?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

New King James Version

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

This is the resurrection of all who have been saved from the beginning of time until the day it takes place.

The theologians call it "the Rapture." 

When man dies his body goes to the grave, while his soul and spirit depart from the body and go to be with Christ.

God created man to live forever in the flesh, but Adam and Eve brought death to man through sin.

The purpose of the resurrection is to bring man in his flesh back to God's original plan. 

The resurrection is when the body of flesh rejoins with the spirit and soul of man as God originally intended for man to live.

We have an example of this when Christ died and rose from the grave. He had a body of flesh, and so will we.
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#27

The Desires of the Believer's Heart
(01-02-2024, 04:30 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-02-2024, 03:15 PM)1Sam15 Wrote: I’m curious how you interpret what these word say to mean something different please?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

New King James Version

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

This is the resurrection of all who have been saved from the beginning of time until the day it takes place.

The theologians call it "the Rapture." 

When man dies his body goes to the grave, while his soul and spirit depart from the body and go to be with Christ.

God created man to live forever in the flesh, but Adam and Eve brought death to man through sin.

The purpose of the resurrection is to bring man in his flesh back to God's original plan. 

The resurrection is when the body of flesh rejoins with the spirit and soul of man as God originally intended for man to live.

We have an example of this when Christ died and rose from the grave. He had a body of flesh, and so will we.

So you are saying heaven is filled with human souls?



God did not intend for Adan and Eve to live forever. Why would god put a tree of eternal life in the garden instead of just giving eternal life?
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#28

The Desires of the Believer's Heart
(01-02-2024, 03:19 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-02-2024, 03:20 AM)epronovost Wrote: You don't need to mention it. We all already knew that. May I remind you that, as a Christian, you are part of a very privileged and powerful group. Even people who are not Christians are very familiar with your values, history, art, scriptures, morality and most of your mythology. It's like if you were part of a small esoteric cult or a small religion from the other side of the planet. Mot people here are Westerners whose culture and history was shaped and heavily influenced by Christianity.

It would have been interesting if you were a Jain, a Wiccan, a Daoist, a Shinto or a member of a tiny esoteric sect of a major religion like a member of Opus Dei or a Christo-fascist.

It's a bit like an American suddenly feeling the need to talk about their values, political system and general culture. Everybody with a little bit of culture and education already knows those things. You can't afford to not know about the powerful, the famous and the influential, but you can ignore much about the weak, the rare and the humble.

Christianity is not a religion, it's a personal relationship.

That's what sets it apart from the religions of the world.

No Christianity is a religion. It contains dogma, traditions, rituals, sacraments, scriptures, arts in various forms and forms a fairly well defined identity group within society and like all religion there is an element of personal relationship with the divine within it. Christianity is very much a religion and it's fairly similar to a host of other religions some still current like Islam and others lost to history like Sol Invictus, the cult of Isis or the cult of Asclepius.
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#29

The Desires of the Believer's Heart
(01-02-2024, 06:21 PM)epronovost Wrote:
(01-02-2024, 03:19 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: Christianity is not a religion, it's a personal relationship.

That's what sets it apart from the religions of the world.

No Christianity is a religion. It contains dogma, traditions, rituals, sacraments, scriptures, arts in various forms and forms a fairly well defined identity group within society and like all religion there is an element of personal relationship with the divine within it. Christianity is very much a religion and it's fairly similar to a host of other religions some still current like Islam and others lost to history like Sol Invictus, the cult of Isis or the cult of Asclepius.

Christianity is built on a relationship that gives man access to His God. 

When God became furious with the Hebrews in the desert for their rebellion and told Moses to leave Him alone so I can consume them (destroy). Then Moses reasoned with God not to kill the people and God listened to Moses and did not consume them.

Even in this present time there are men of God who beg of God for this or that and receive it based on relationship. Is there another religion of this sort? Where man can go to his God and based on relationship by faith, receive his petition?
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#30

The Desires of the Believer's Heart
(01-02-2024, 06:41 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: Is there another religion of this sort? Where man can go to his God and based on relationship by faith, receive his petition?

Euh yes, of course. This specific event you describe is not even unique to Christianity. The story of Moses and Noah (who both successful pleaded with God) takes its root in Judaism and God does receive petition of that sort in Judaism as well as in Islam which also honor Moses and Noah as prophets and can do such thing. You will also find this concept of petition to the Gods that may be receive by faith or demonstrations of faith in pretty much all religions from the animistic traditions of Native Americans to the great polytheistic religion of the Levant, Greece and Rome and many more. The only religions where you can do no such things are religions in which there is either no god like some forms of Buddhism and Daoism, religion where divinity don't intervene in affairs of mortals like in many forms of deism or where divinity is purely conceptual like in some forms of pantheism or Neo-Platonism. What you are describing is one of the most common characteristics of all faith since most major religions in human history posited personal deities that is deity with personalities, attitudes, character and who seek and can have relationships with their subjects.
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#31

The Desires of the Believer's Heart
(01-02-2024, 06:51 PM)epronovost Wrote:
(01-02-2024, 06:41 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: Is there another religion of this sort? Where man can go to his God and based on relationship by faith, receive his petition?

Euh yes, of course. This specific event you describe is not even unique to Christianity. The story of Moses and Noah (who both successful pleaded with God) takes its root in Judaism and God does receive petition of that sort in Judaism as well as in Islam which also honor Moses and Noah as prophets and can do such thing. You will also find this concept of petition to the Gods that may be receive by faith or demonstrations of faith in pretty much all religions from the animistic traditions of Native Americans to the great polytheistic religion of the Levant, Greece and Rome and many more. The only religions where you can do no such things are religions in which there is either no god like some forms of Buddhism and Daoism, religion where divinity don't intervene in affairs of mortals like in many forms of deism or where divinity is purely conceptual like in some forms of pantheism or Neo-Platonism. What you are describing is one of the most common characteristics of all faith since most major religions in human history posited personal deities that is deity with personalities, attitudes, character and who seek and can have relationships with their subjects.

I'm afraid you don't understand what Judaism became after Moses and Joshua died.

The Law of Moses came from God Himself, delivered to Moses for the people. 

After the death of Moses and Joshua who kept the Law in tact, the Jews began to pervert the Law and by the time Christ came they had added 613 precepts to the Law that were manmade and took the people away from the purpose of the Law.

This perversion of God's Law was so intense that it led to the killing of their own Messiah, (Jesus Christ).

The Scripture says that God has always had a remnant of true believers in Israel, even today. But the vast majority are still as Christ left them, false prophets in a manmade religion.
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#32

The Desires of the Believer's Heart
(01-02-2024, 07:06 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: I'm afraid you don't understand what Judaism became after Moses and Joshua died.

The Law of Moses came from God Himself, delivered to Moses for the people. 

After the death of Moses and Joshua who kept the Law in tact, the Jews began to pervert the Law and by the time Christ came they had added 613 precepts to the Law that were manmade and took the people away from the purpose of the Law.

This perversion of God's Law was so intense that it led to the killing of their own Messiah, (Jesus Christ).

The Scripture says that God has always had a remnant of true believers in Israel, even today. But the vast majority are still as Christ left them, false prophets in a manmade religion.

This has nothing to do with the question of relationship with the divine nor intercessory relationship by divinities. 

You should stop boasting about being better than others. That's a sin of pride and the sin of pride is the original sin. Didn't Jesus taught you to be humble?
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#33

The Desires of the Believer's Heart
(01-02-2024, 07:15 PM)epronovost Wrote:
(01-02-2024, 07:06 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: I'm afraid you don't understand what Judaism became after Moses and Joshua died.

The Law of Moses came from God Himself, delivered to Moses for the people. 

After the death of Moses and Joshua who kept the Law in tact, the Jews began to pervert the Law and by the time Christ came they had added 613 precepts to the Law that were manmade and took the people away from the purpose of the Law.

This perversion of God's Law was so intense that it led to the killing of their own Messiah, (Jesus Christ).

The Scripture says that God has always had a remnant of true believers in Israel, even today. But the vast majority are still as Christ left them, false prophets in a manmade religion.

This has nothing to do with the question of relationship with the divine nor intercessory relationship by divinities. 

You should stop boasting about being better than others. That's a sin of pride and the sin of pride is the original sin. Didn't Jesus taught you to be humble?

Where do you see pride in my posts?
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#34

The Desires of the Believer's Heart
(01-02-2024, 03:00 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-02-2024, 11:25 AM)1Sam15 Wrote: Charlie, do you believe there are dead humans occupying heaven right now?

The apostle Paul told us "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." Of course he was speaking to believers when he said this.

This physical body we have is just the covering of our real person, the spirit and soul of man is the real man.

So when a believer dies his outer covering or body goes to the grave, but real you ascends into heaven to be with Christ.

What about the 144k? Or those taking a dirt nap? I understand that some are doing the limbo?
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#35

The Desires of the Believer's Heart
(01-02-2024, 07:18 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-02-2024, 07:15 PM)epronovost Wrote: This has nothing to do with the question of relationship with the divine nor intercessory relationship by divinities. 

You should stop boasting about being better than others. That's a sin of pride and the sin of pride is the original sin. Didn't Jesus taught you to be humble?

Where do you see pride in my posts?

In your want to look better than Jews and Muslims when someone points out that you are their equals in a specific area. You literally started to argue for the superiority of Christian beliefs and theology on an unrelated point to the subject of relationship with the divine in appearance to make yourself look better. This is pride.
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#36

The Desires of the Believer's Heart
(01-02-2024, 07:34 PM)epronovost Wrote:
(01-02-2024, 07:18 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: Where do you see pride in my posts?

In your want to look better than Jews and Muslims when someone points out that you are their equals in a specific area. You literally started to argue for the superiority of Christian beliefs and theology on an unrelated point to the subject of relationship with the divine in appearance to make yourself look better. This is pride.

Well of course! Being a Christian who believes in Jesus Christ as the Savior of the world, I'm certainly not going to speak on a positive note toward the Jews and Muslims who believe Jesus was merely a good prophet.

I draw the line in the sand when it comes to the Deity of Jesus Christ.
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#37

The Desires of the Believer's Heart
(01-02-2024, 03:19 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: Christianity is not a religion, it's a personal relationship.

Charlie, if it were just you talking to your god, it would be acceptable to call it a relationship.  Kind of a silly relationship, like a Batman fan having a man-crush on Bruce Wayne, but it happens.

When you started preaching to other people about it, it became a religion and will remain a religion.  This process is not reversible.
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#38

The Desires of the Believer's Heart
(01-02-2024, 08:06 PM)Astreja Wrote:
(01-02-2024, 03:19 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: Christianity is not a religion, it's a personal relationship.

Charlie, if it were just you talking to your god, it would be acceptable to call it a relationship.  Kind of a silly relationship, like a Batman fan having a man-crush on Bruce Wayne, but it happens.

When you started preaching to other people about it, it became a religion and will remain a religion.  This process is not reversible.

It can be whatever you want it to be, it's no big deal.

I call it a relationship, but you can call it whatever you like.
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#39

The Desires of the Believer's Heart
(01-02-2024, 08:14 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-02-2024, 08:06 PM)Astreja Wrote: Charlie, if it were just you talking to your god, it would be acceptable to call it a relationship.  Kind of a silly relationship, like a Batman fan having a man-crush on Bruce Wayne, but it happens.

When you started preaching to other people about it, it became a religion and will remain a religion.  This process is not reversible.

It can be whatever you want it to be, it's no big deal.

I call it a relationship, but you can call it whatever you like.

You would never for a moment consider seeing a doctor to find out why you hear voices in your head?
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#40

The Desires of the Believer's Heart
(01-02-2024, 06:51 PM)epronovost Wrote:
(01-02-2024, 06:41 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: Is there another religion of this sort? Where man can go to his God and based on relationship by faith, receive his petition?

Euh yes, of course. This specific event you describe is not even unique to Christianity. The story of Moses and Noah (who both successful pleaded with God) takes its root in Judaism and God does receive petition of that sort in Judaism as well as in Islam which also honor Moses and Noah as prophets and can do such thing. You will also find this concept of petition to the Gods that may be receive by faith or demonstrations of faith in pretty much all religions from the animistic traditions of Native Americans to the great polytheistic religion of the Levant, Greece and Rome and many more. The only religions where you can do no such things are religions in which there is either no god like some forms of Buddhism and Daoism, religion where divinity don't intervene in affairs of mortals like in many forms of deism or where divinity is purely conceptual like in some forms of pantheism or Neo-Platonism. What you are describing is one of the most common characteristics of all faith since most major religions in human history posited personal deities that is deity with personalities, attitudes, character and who seek and can have relationships with their subjects.

There are Buddhist sects where that isn't true, where you can essentially petition for benefits.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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#41

The Desires of the Believer's Heart
Charlie…if you don’t believe you have a religion but just a personal relationship with Jesus and your church does, too, are you willing to have your church taxed? It’s funny how it suddenly becomes a religion when money is involved.
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#42

The Desires of the Believer's Heart
(01-02-2024, 08:18 PM)1Sam15 Wrote:
(01-02-2024, 08:14 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: It can be whatever you want it to be, it's no big deal.

I call it a relationship, but you can call it whatever you like.

You would never for a moment consider seeing a doctor to find out why you hear voices in your head?
Lol. Well I don't think he probably hears voices (though you never know). I, too, was taught it was a relationship, not a religion. There's this old hymn that my mother absolutely loved, "In the Garden", the chorus of which runs:

"And he walks with me and he talks with me
And he tells me I am his own
And the joys we share as we tarry there
None other has ever known"

Makes it sound like a lover's tryst, and yet in my roughly 30 years in fundamentalism (age 6 through 36 more or less) I NEVER knew anyone who actually had conversations with Jesus, you know, the kind actual relationships are made up of, where one person talks and the other answers and a conversation occurs. Instead this song was regarded as metaphor or even a looking forward to being in heaven with Jesus. Literally the ONLY time this went to the level of (probably pretending to) hear the voice of Jesus was a radio preacher I recall who would sometimes pause in the middle of a sentence, cock his head, and say, Yes, Jesus? and get some message from him for the audience. Might have been Oral Roberts, I think. That was just performance art.

My mother yearned for that sort of connection with god but I am certain she never experienced it.

A "relationship" is two way, involving actual conversations and interactions; so no, it's no relationship. It is a fan club with secret decoder rings.
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#43

The Desires of the Believer's Heart
Quote: I NEVER knew anyone who actually had conversations with Jesus,

Apparently the fucker talks to republiKKKunt candidates all the time and tells them to run for office!
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#44

The Desires of the Believer's Heart
(01-03-2024, 12:10 AM)pattylt Wrote: Charlie…if you don’t believe you have a religion but just a personal relationship with Jesus and your church does, too, are you willing to have your church taxed?  It’s funny how it suddenly becomes a religion when money is involved.

I don't think that is going to happen anytime some, but who knows.

The separation of state and church will eventually merge as the government increases in greed.

The church has no choice but to pay it, but the courts will be full for a while.

My pastor has already said that we must obey the laws of the land to the point of how we worship.

So yes, our church would pay the taxes without rebellion and such.
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#45

The Desires of the Believer's Heart
(01-03-2024, 12:31 AM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 12:10 AM)pattylt Wrote: Charlie…if you don’t believe you have a religion but just a personal relationship with Jesus and your church does, too, are you willing to have your church taxed?  It’s funny how it suddenly becomes a religion when money is involved.

I don't think that is going to happen anytime some, but who knows.

The separation of state and church will eventually merge as the government increases in greed.

The church has no choice but to pay it, but the courts will be full for a while.

My pastor has already said that we must obey the laws of the land to the point of how we worship.

So yes, our church would pay the taxes without rebellion and such.
Although many of us here believe at least the member-benefit aspects of churches should be taxed (still exempting no-strings-attached community benefits like food kitchens and the like), there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that it will happen. It is like our mindless blank checks we're always writing to the government of Israel, no matter what it does. "Mass genocide? Maybe tone it down a little guys? No? Well it's been a productive conversation. Here's another billion dollars and a hundred tanks. Use them wisely."

You folks have hold of the levers of power in many important ways already. You don't have to worry about being forced to pay taxes. The horror!
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#46

The Desires of the Believer's Heart
(01-03-2024, 12:36 AM)mordant Wrote:
(01-03-2024, 12:31 AM)Charlie24 Wrote: I don't think that is going to happen anytime some, but who knows.

The separation of state and church will eventually merge as the government increases in greed.

The church has no choice but to pay it, but the courts will be full for a while.

My pastor has already said that we must obey the laws of the land to the point of how we worship.

So yes, our church would pay the taxes without rebellion and such.
Although many of us here believe at least the member-benefit aspects of churches should be taxed (still exempting no-strings-attached community benefits like food kitchens and the like), there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that it will happen. It is like our mindless blank checks we're always writing to the government of Israel, no matter what it does. "Mass genocide? Maybe tone it down a little guys? No? Well it's been a productive conversation. Here's another billion dollars and a hundred tanks. Use them wisely."

You folks have hold of the levers of power in many important ways already. You don't have to worry about being forced to pay taxes. The horror!

I suppose the government can't please everyone.
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