The Desires of the Believer's Heart

[Charlie24]

Every believer, I speak of the born-again, desires to hear these words of Christ when they leave this world.

Matt. 25:21

"His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord."

Most of all we desire to experience what Adam and Eve experienced for a brief time in the Garden of Eden. A world with no traces of sin, no more death, sorrow, or sickness. The world that God originally planned for man to have before sin entered the world.

The Book of Revelation gives us a glimpse into that world to come, as the Apostle John writes down what God has told him to write for us.

Rev. 21:1-7

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." 


This is just for you so that you can better understand the believer's heart. Why our faith is so very important to us.

Some will say we only believe because we get something of great value from it.

We know in our hearts that we deserve none of this, but the Father's love will not have it any other way.

We love Him because He first loved us in providing a way to escape what we truly deserve.

[Cavebear]

Every believer, I speak of the born-again, desires to hear these words of Christ when they leave this world.

Matt. 25:21

"His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord."

Most of all we desire to experience what Adam and Eve experienced for a brief time in the Garden of Eden. A world with no traces of sin, no more death, sorrow, or sickness. The world that God originally planned for man to have before sin entered the world.

The Book of Revelation gives us a glimpse into that world to come, as the Apostle John writes down what God has told him to write for us.

Rev. 21:1-7

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." 


This is just for you so that you can better understand the believer's heart. Why our faith is so very important to us.

Some will say we only believe because we get something of great value from it.

We know in our hearts that we deserve none of this, but the Father's love will not have it any other way.

We love Him because He first loved us in providing a way to escape what we truly deserve.

And you have evidence of that from independent sources? Oh wait, you only have a book that is its only reference. By that standard, every sci-fi book is as real as the bible. LOL

[Minimalist]

I suspect what they actually hear is "Pull the plug, Joe.  This fucker's a goner."

[Astreja]

We love Him because He first loved us in providing a way to escape what we truly deserve.

Charlie, no one deserves eternal torture.  No one in the entirety of space-time.  No exceptions.  Any god that would permit sentient beings to suffer for eternity is a god of infinite evil.

The fact that you actually believe such a ghastly thing is a clear indication that your religious beliefs have broken your mind, and your sense of love, in an utterly tragic way.  You deserve to be happy without feeling such a misguided obligation to an evil god.

[brewerb]

'Every believer' is an outlandish and unsupportable claim. Never got past the first sentence.

[Charlie24]

We love Him because He first loved us in providing a way to escape what we truly deserve.

Charlie, no one deserves eternal torture.  No one in the entirety of space-time.  No exceptions.  Any god that would permit sentient beings to suffer for eternity is a god of infinite evil.

The fact that you actually believe such a ghastly thing is a clear indication that your religious beliefs have broken your mind, and your sense of love, in an utterly tragic way.  You deserve to be happy without feeling such a misguided obligation to an evil god.

Yes we do, we deserve eternal separation from our Creator for sinning against a Holy God.

But He made a way for us to be reconciled. Don't throw it away.

[Astreja]

Yes we do, we deserve eternal separation from our Creator for sinning against a Holy God.

But He made a way for us to be reconciled. Don't throw it away.

There's nothing "holy" about a god that tortures people.  Even viewing it as a fictional character, I feel no positive emotions at all towards your god.

[Dānu]

If there is any justice, Charlie, at the end of your days you will be brought face-to-face with a deity with three faces who does nothing but bark like a dog.

[Charlie24]

Yes we do, we deserve eternal separation from our Creator for sinning against a Holy God.

But He made a way for us to be reconciled. Don't throw it away.

There's nothing "holy" about a god that tortures people.  Even viewing it as a fictional character, I feel no positive emotions at all towards your god.

That is the expected response from someone who rejects the Son of God.

[Astreja]

There's nothing "holy" about a god that tortures people.  Even viewing it as a fictional character, I feel no positive emotions at all towards your god.

That is the expected response from someone who rejects the Son of God.

Yes, and...?

Charlie, I have a challenge for you.  For the next 24 hours, think about a real person whom you love dearly - a parent, a child, a good friend.  Imagine that either they have no religious faith, or that their faith has disappeared.  Imagine that your god has sent them to hell.  Watch their suffering in real-time in your imagination:  Every time your mind strays to something else - the newspaper, the football game, the food on your plate - bring your thoughts back to their suffering.  Listen to their screams.  And try to reconcile your love for them with the love you allegedly feel for your god.  How long will you be able to "watch" their suffering, knowing that there's nothing you can do to help them?

[Charlie24]

There's nothing "holy" about a god that tortures people.  Even viewing it as a fictional character, I feel no positive emotions at all towards your god.

That is the expected response from someone who rejects the Son of God.

Yes, and...?

Charlie, I have a challenge for you.  For the next 24 hours, think about a real person whom you love dearly - a parent, a child, a good friend.  Imagine that either they have no religious faith, or that their faith has disappeared.  Imagine that your god has sent them to hell.  Watch their suffering in real-time in your imagination:  Every time your mind strays to something else - the newspaper, the football game, the food on your plate - bring your thoughts back to their suffering.  Listen to their screams.  And try to reconcile your love for them with the love you allegedly feel for your god.  How long will you be able to "watch" their suffering, knowing that there's nothing you can do to help them?

That should be a wake-up call for you, but I'm afraid it passed right over your head without a dent.

That is the horrors of sin against God, it has not only brought physical death to man, but also spiritual death, eternal separation from God, by rejecting Christ.

I have several loved ones who have gone to the grave and I'm afraid they are in that place, but none in my immediate family.

I like to think that somehow from the last time I saw them and talked to them about the Lord, that they accepted the Lord as their Saviour and I will see them again in heaven. I can't dwell on the negative, and neither does God want me to.

[Dānu]

Yes, and...?

Charlie, I have a challenge for you.  For the next 24 hours, think about a real person whom you love dearly - a parent, a child, a good friend.  Imagine that either they have no religious faith, or that their faith has disappeared.  Imagine that your god has sent them to hell.  Watch their suffering in real-time in your imagination:  Every time your mind strays to something else - the newspaper, the football game, the food on your plate - bring your thoughts back to their suffering.  Listen to their screams.  And try to reconcile your love for them with the love you allegedly feel for your god.  How long will you be able to "watch" their suffering, knowing that there's nothing you can do to help them?

That should be a wake-up call for you, but I'm afraid it passed right over your head without a dent.

That is the horrors of sin against God, it has not only brought physical death to man, but also spiritual death, eternal separation from God, by rejecting Christ.

Citation needed.

[pattylt]

It’d be fun to sit back and have Charlie and Dave go at each other…for a bit anyway.

Charlie, how do you reconcile your Christianity with other ones? Will Catholics go to hell? Will Jehovah Witnesses? How about Jews who believe in god very much but don’t accept Jesus as messiah? How narrow is your road?

[Charlie24]

That should be a wake-up call for you, but I'm afraid it passed right over your head without a dent.

That is the horrors of sin against God, it has not only brought physical death to man, but also spiritual death, eternal separation from God, by rejecting Christ.

Citation needed.

I don't have any references but the Holy Bible.

Do you want to see from Scripture the two deaths I spoke of?

If you do please respond with a YES, and I will be happy to show you.

[Dānu]

Citation needed.

I don't have any references but the Holy Bible.

Do you want to see from Scripture the two deaths I spoke of?

If you do please respond with a YES, and I will be happy to show you.

Would you be convinced that Vishnu is a real god if I quoted the Upanishads?

[Astreja]

That should be a wake-up call for you, but I'm afraid it passed right over your head without a dent.

That is the horrors of sin against God, it has not only brought physical death to man, but also spiritual death, eternal separation from God, by rejecting Christ.

I have several loved ones who have gone to the grave and I'm afraid they are in that place, but none in my immediate family.

I like to think that somehow from the last time I saw them and talked to them about the Lord, that they accepted the Lord as their Saviour and I will see them again in heaven. I can't dwell on the negative, and neither does God want me to.

So you're okay with your deceased loved ones screaming in agony if they didn't accept Jesus?  And you decline my challenge to devote a mere 24 hours of your life to meditate on their pain?  That's both cowardly and intellectually lazy.

Personally I believe that hell is a myth, and that no one has ever suffered after death, and therefore there is no need for a "wake-up" call.  You, however, seem to get a spiritual hard-on from threatening people with Dire Consequences™ if they don't believe the same unconscionable BS that you believe.  You are something that I aspire to never become.

[epronovost]

Every believer, I speak of the born-again, desires to hear these words of Christ when they leave this world.

This is just for you so that you can better understand the believer's heart. Why our faith is so very important to us.

You don't need to mention it. We all already knew that. May I remind you that, as a Christian, you are part of a very privileged and powerful group. Even people who are not Christians are very familiar with your values, history, art, scriptures, morality and most of your mythology. It's like if you were part of a small esoteric cult or a small religion from the other side of the planet. Mot people here are Westerners whose culture and history was shaped and heavily influenced by Christianity.

It would have been interesting if you were a Jain, a Wiccan, a Daoist, a Shinto or a member of a tiny esoteric sect of a major religion like a member of Opus Dei or a Christo-fascist.

It's a bit like an American suddenly feeling the need to talk about their values, political system and general culture. Everybody with a little bit of culture and education already knows those things. You can't afford to not know about the powerful, the famous and the influential, but you can ignore much about the weak, the rare and the humble.

[Cavebear]

Charlie, no one deserves eternal torture.  No one in the entirety of space-time.  No exceptions.  Any god that would permit sentient beings to suffer for eternity is a god of infinite evil.

The fact that you actually believe such a ghastly thing is a clear indication that your religious beliefs have broken your mind, and your sense of love, in an utterly tragic way.  You deserve to be happy without feeling such a misguided obligation to an evil god.

Yes we do, we deserve eternal separation from our Creator for sinning against a Holy God.

But He made a way for us to be reconciled. Don't throw it away.

Do you never stop evangelizing?

[Cavebear]

Citation needed.

I don't have any references but the Holy Bible.

Do you want to see from Scripture the two deaths I spoke of?

If you do please respond with a YES, and I will be happy to show you.

Quoting the bible is circular reasoninbg. You have only it to "prove" the claim of the reality of its claims.

[1Sam15]

Yes, and...?

Charlie, I have a challenge for you.  For the next 24 hours, think about a real person whom you love dearly - a parent, a child, a good friend.  Imagine that either they have no religious faith, or that their faith has disappeared.  Imagine that your god has sent them to hell.  Watch their suffering in real-time in your imagination:  Every time your mind strays to something else - the newspaper, the football game, the food on your plate - bring your thoughts back to their suffering.  Listen to their screams.  And try to reconcile your love for them with the love you allegedly feel for your god.  How long will you be able to "watch" their suffering, knowing that there's nothing you can do to help them?

That should be a wake-up call for you, but I'm afraid it passed right over your head without a dent.

That is the horrors of sin against God, it has not only brought physical death to man, but also spiritual death, eternal separation from God, by rejecting Christ.

I have several loved ones who have gone to the grave and I'm afraid they are in that place, but none in my immediate family.

I like to think that somehow from the last time I saw them and talked to them about the Lord, that they accepted the Lord as their Saviour and I will see them again in heaven. I can't dwell on the negative, and neither does God want me to.

Charlie, do you believe there are dead humans occupying heaven right now?

[Charlie24]

That should be a wake-up call for you, but I'm afraid it passed right over your head without a dent.

That is the horrors of sin against God, it has not only brought physical death to man, but also spiritual death, eternal separation from God, by rejecting Christ.

I have several loved ones who have gone to the grave and I'm afraid they are in that place, but none in my immediate family.

I like to think that somehow from the last time I saw them and talked to them about the Lord, that they accepted the Lord as their Saviour and I will see them again in heaven. I can't dwell on the negative, and neither does God want me to.

Charlie, do you believe there are dead humans occupying heaven right now?

The apostle Paul told us "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." Of course he was speaking to believers when he said this.

This physical body we have is just the covering of our real person, the spirit and soul of man is the real man.

So when a believer dies his outer covering or body goes to the grave, but real you ascends into heaven to be with Christ.

[SeaPigeon]

Charlie, do you believe there are dead humans occupying heaven right now?

The apostle Paul told us "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." Of course he was speaking to believers when he said this.

This physical body we have is just the covering of our real person, the spirit and soul of man is the real man.

So when a believer dies his outer covering or body goes to the grave, but real you ascends into heaven to be with Christ.

Then what?

[1Sam15]

Charlie, do you believe there are dead humans occupying heaven right now?

The apostle Paul told us "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." Of course he was speaking to believers when he said this.

This physical body we have is just the covering of our real person, the spirit and soul of man is the real man.

So when a believer dies his outer covering or body goes to the grave, but real you ascends into heaven to be with Christ.

I’m curious how you interpret what these word say to mean something different please?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

New King James Version

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

[Charlie24]

Every believer, I speak of the born-again, desires to hear these words of Christ when they leave this world.

This is just for you so that you can better understand the believer's heart. Why our faith is so very important to us.

You don't need to mention it. We all already knew that. May I remind you that, as a Christian, you are part of a very privileged and powerful group. Even people who are not Christians are very familiar with your values, history, art, scriptures, morality and most of your mythology. It's like if you were part of a small esoteric cult or a small religion from the other side of the planet. Mot people here are Westerners whose culture and history was shaped and heavily influenced by Christianity.

It would have been interesting if you were a Jain, a Wiccan, a Daoist, a Shinto or a member of a tiny esoteric sect of a major religion like a member of Opus Dei or a Christo-fascist.

It's a bit like an American suddenly feeling the need to talk about their values, political system and general culture. Everybody with a little bit of culture and education already knows those things. You can't afford to not know about the powerful, the famous and the influential, but you can ignore much about the weak, the rare and the humble.

Christianity is not a religion, it's a personal relationship.

That's what sets it apart from the religions of the world.

[Dānu]

You don't need to mention it. We all already knew that. May I remind you that, as a Christian, you are part of a very privileged and powerful group. Even people who are not Christians are very familiar with your values, history, art, scriptures, morality and most of your mythology. It's like if you were part of a small esoteric cult or a small religion from the other side of the planet. Mot people here are Westerners whose culture and history was shaped and heavily influenced by Christianity.

It would have been interesting if you were a Jain, a Wiccan, a Daoist, a Shinto or a member of a tiny esoteric sect of a major religion like a member of Opus Dei or a Christo-fascist.

It's a bit like an American suddenly feeling the need to talk about their values, political system and general culture. Everybody with a little bit of culture and education already knows those things. You can't afford to not know about the powerful, the famous and the influential, but you can ignore much about the weak, the rare and the humble.

Christianity is not a religion, it's a personal relationship.

And I'm a ham sandwich. You may have an alleged personal relationship, but that itself is your religion. These are just empty word games that you are playing.