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Yes, Virginia, Atheists Have a Worldview
#26

Yes, Virginia, Atheists Have a Worldview
(01-01-2024, 08:07 PM)Dave Armstrong Wrote: Is there a non-theistic god? Honest question. I have never heard any god qualified as "theistic".


The deist "god" is one example. It starts the universe in motion and then appears to be utterly indifferent to it after that. 

There are different versions of theism (why I said I was a classical theist). Some think God doesn't have all the "omni" qualities and isn't outside of time (therefore doesn't know the future). This is seen in the theologically liberal beliefs in process theology and open theism. Allah in Islam also doesn't have all of the qualities of the Christian and Jewish God. And of course Judaism and Islam deny trinitarianism.

Then there is pantheism ("god is all or all is god") and panentheism ("god is in everything or everything is in god"). Those are basically variants of eastern religious concepts, which deny the transcendence of God.
OK but god = theos so I still see "non-theistic god" as akin to "non-round wheel". The deist god is still a god albeit a non-interventionist and/or absent one. A god who isn't all knowing or all powerful, is still described and worshipped as a god, even if, to someone like myself accustomed to the tri-omni concept, it seems like something less than an actual god. Pan[en]theism still feels obliged to define god, however differently.

But this is definitely something we can agree to disagree on, it was just a point of curiosity.
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#27

Yes, Virginia, Atheists Have a Worldview
(01-01-2024, 06:13 PM)mordant Wrote:
(01-01-2024, 05:55 PM)Szuchow Wrote: It's not like crap [Dave writes] is new.
This is essentially true as to newness but for me the novelty is not in Dave's content but in his style. I think he sincerely attempts, despite some probably unconscious lapses into stereotype and cliche, to actually discuss.

That said ... IDK how long the novelty will last but this place has become moribund of late. There's a lot more volume of discussion elsewhere but I really like the permissive and tolerant moderation style here. And I am not talking mainly about overuse of the ban-hammer. On another forum I'm on for example, the lead moderator refuses to deal with political topics, so there's no direct way to discuss the influence of religion on politics or vice-versa; any thread heading that way gets closed. His counterpart on the political forum prohibits religious discussion. I left that site for a few years over this issue (that and the rather prudish and clumsy redaction of the slightest profanity).

I returned and put up with this because there are several dozen regulars, enough to keep things stimulating, even if probably 65% of them are either insane fundamentalists or cherry-picking spiritual-but-not-religious iconoclasts, one can have some intelligent discussion on demand usually. Here some days I sometimes see no substantive new posts in a given day, even a few days in a row.

This is why I am willing to see what Dave writes as not total crap and to engage with some of it. I've spend more enjoyable time here in the past few days than I probably did in the prior 3 months. And that's a good thing IMO.

Block Dave if he bugs you that much. I have blocked a few trolls here myself but IMO Dave is not one of them. Being wrong by my lights <> trolling. It may well become repetitive and then I will just make different choices who I spent time talking to. Or it may not.

Thank you very much. I think we have the beginnings here of what could be much good and challenging discussion. I look forward to it. A new year!
[F]anatical atheists . . . can’t hear the music of the spheres. (Einstein, 8-7-41)
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#28

Yes, Virginia, Atheists Have a Worldview
The remarkable thing is that many of the beliefs that you postulate as common to atheists are also common to theists.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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#29

Yes, Virginia, Atheists Have a Worldview
mordant wrote:

We have had people who believe in or admit the possibility of ghosts. There are atheists who are Buddhists or Daoists. Do not try to broaden atheism into something more than it is; it is stereotyping and, potentially, leads to straw-manning.

There is also such a thing as generalizing (sociology wouldn't exist without it, and that was my major). The apologist like myself, who criticizes and defends ideas and beliefs, must necessarily generalize quite often. I try to make it very clear that I am doing so.

I may construct a few straw men here and there, but it's never my intention. What I describe in atheists, is what I have massively observed in writing and in personal interaction. I have observed that online atheists act very differently than atheists in person. I know this from long experience, too. So I'm well aware of all the exceptions and qualifications.  

What you are objecting to is massively done to Christians all the time online. We are broad-brushed. We can see it in these threads from the folks who have no interest in discussing what I brought up, but rather, only in seeking to prove that I am a brainless idiot. And they do it because I am a Christian who 1) thinks, and 2) dares to utter critiques of atheism in an atheist forum.

Again, it need not be acrimonious. But it always is among those who want it to be that way. Human nature, I spose . . . We can attack each other and have mud pie fights or Three Stooges pie fights, or we can try to get along and find common ground. That's my interest here.
[F]anatical atheists . . . can’t hear the music of the spheres. (Einstein, 8-7-41)
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#30

Yes, Virginia, Atheists Have a Worldview
(01-01-2024, 08:36 PM)Dānu Wrote: The remarkable thing is that many of the beliefs that you postulate as common to atheists are also common to theists.

Yep. We have many things in common, if only both sides would recognize that. And that's one of my main reasons to be here, as I just said in another reply.
[F]anatical atheists . . . can’t hear the music of the spheres. (Einstein, 8-7-41)
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#31

Yes, Virginia, Atheists Have a Worldview
(01-01-2024, 08:22 PM)Dave Armstrong Wrote: Following your reasoning, I think we could say something like, "atheism is a category that tends to have certain clusters of 'mini-wordviews'

Philosophy, epistemology, politics, morality, economics, etc. are to a certain point interrelated fields. It's rare for example to have a secular humanist who is also an ardent nationalist and authoritarian. While it's probably possible to find some people who hold these seemingly contradictory positions, it's fair to assume

What I would advance though, is that atheism is not a "prime belief" as in the belief that help set the others. In my personal case, my "prime belief" the one that is at the core of my worldview is secular humanism from which all the other extends and the one from which I am least likely deviate. Religion, unlike atheism, can take hold as a "prime belief" the one that will influence the adoption of others and from which deviation is least likely.

What do you think?
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#32

Yes, Virginia, Atheists Have a Worldview
(01-01-2024, 08:31 PM)Dave Armstrong Wrote:
(01-01-2024, 06:13 PM)mordant Wrote: This is essentially true as to newness but for me the novelty is not in Dave's content but in his style. I think he sincerely attempts, despite some probably unconscious lapses into stereotype and cliche, to actually discuss.

That said ... IDK how long the novelty will last but this place has become moribund of late. There's a lot more volume of discussion elsewhere but I really like the permissive and tolerant moderation style here. And I am not talking mainly about overuse of the ban-hammer. On another forum I'm on for example, the lead moderator refuses to deal with political topics, so there's no direct way to discuss the influence of religion on politics or vice-versa; any thread heading that way gets closed. His counterpart on the political forum prohibits religious discussion. I left that site for a few years over this issue (that and the rather prudish and clumsy redaction of the slightest profanity).

I returned and put up with this because there are several dozen regulars, enough to keep things stimulating, even if probably 65% of them are either insane fundamentalists or cherry-picking spiritual-but-not-religious iconoclasts, one can have some intelligent discussion on demand usually. Here some days I sometimes see no substantive new posts in a given day, even a few days in a row.

This is why I am willing to see what Dave writes as not total crap and to engage with some of it. I've spend more enjoyable time here in the past few days than I probably did in the prior 3 months. And that's a good thing IMO.

Block Dave if he bugs you that much. I have blocked a few trolls here myself but IMO Dave is not one of them. Being wrong by my lights <> trolling. It may well become repetitive and then I will just make different choices who I spent time talking to. Or it may not.

Thank you very much. I think we have the beginnings here of what could be much good and challenging discussion. I look forward to it. A new year!

How about if you explain "belief" and we explain "science"... Smile
Never try to catch a dropped kitchen knife!
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#33

Yes, Virginia, Atheists Have a Worldview
(01-01-2024, 09:21 PM)epronovost Wrote:
(01-01-2024, 08:22 PM)Dave Armstrong Wrote: Following your reasoning, I think we could say something like, "atheism is a category that tends to have certain clusters of 'mini-wordviews'

Philosophy, epistemology, politics, morality, economics, etc. are to a certain point interrelated fields. It's rare for example to have a secular humanist who is also an ardent nationalist and authoritarian. While it's probably possible to find some people who hold these seemingly contradictory positions, it's fair to assume

What I would advance though, is that atheism is not a "prime belief" as in the belief that help set the others. In my personal case, my "prime belief" the one that is at the core of my worldview is secular humanism from which all the other extends and the one from which I am least likely deviate. Religion, unlike atheism, can take hold as a "prime belief" the one that will influence the adoption of others and from which deviation is least likely.

What do you think?

I think that's another good point.
[F]anatical atheists . . . can’t hear the music of the spheres. (Einstein, 8-7-41)
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#34

Yes, Virginia, Atheists Have a Worldview
(01-01-2024, 04:20 PM)Dave Armstrong Wrote: In conclusion, here are some of the many things that atheists en masse believe:.
  • ...
  • that matter can be observed according to more or less predictable scientific laws (uniformitarianism).

    that we can trust our senses to analyze such observations and what they mean (empiricism)...
  • in presupposing that certain things are absolutely true.

  • that matter has the inherent “God-like,” in effect “omnipotent,” capability of organizing itself, evolving, inexorably developing into all that we observe in the entire universe. There is no God or even any sort of immaterial spirit that did or could do this, so it has to fall back onto matter. The belief in this without any reason whatsoever to do so is what I have called "atomism."

  • that the universe began in a Big Bang (for who knows what reason).

  • that the universe created itself out of nothing (for who knows what reason), but it’s deemed more rational than the Christian believing that God is an eternal spirit, Who created the universe.

  • that science is the only method by which we can objectively determine facts and truth (extreme empiricism + scientism).
I don't believe those. Atheists exist, world views exist, but the worldview of atheists is NOT the same. So this notion of yours of an atheist worldview is misleading, and a bit insulting to be honest.
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#35

Yes, Virginia, Atheists Have a Worldview
(01-01-2024, 08:12 PM)Dave Armstrong Wrote:
(01-01-2024, 05:59 PM)brewerb Wrote: I'll admit I have a world view, I'll also admit it doesn't include theism/religion. It also contains the view that both atheists and theists  have the right to exist or believe as they want. 

Take the chip off your shoulder Dave.

I have no chip on my shoulder. I have strongly held viewpoints which I elucidate with vigor, rigor, and passion. Many folks immediately assume that I have an "attitude" in so doing or am angry or, as you say, have a chip on my shoulder. I don't. I'm just discussing ideas. My temperament is very calm, cool, easy-going. People here will learn that as time goes on. But at first I seem different from many. Maybe I am. But my outlook is what I just described.

You agree with my central point in this OP. All people have a worldview. I also agree with you that every human being has a right to exist and has religious freedom and freedom to believe whatever they like. Vatican II (binding to me as a Catholic) emphasized religious freedom and ecumenism: attempting to get along with and find common ground with those of different beliefs. I think that's great, and I am an enthusiastic proponent and defender of both things.

I know you have a chip based on your behavior.

Did the Vatican emphasize the right not to believe?
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#36

Yes, Virginia, Atheists Have a Worldview
(01-01-2024, 05:00 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:
(01-01-2024, 04:20 PM)Dave Armstrong Wrote: I’m not discussing a mere word (atheism); I’m talking about what atheists do in fact believe, and asserting that atheists hold to beliefs and belief-systems (usually quite predictable ones at that).
Name a SINGLE belief ALL atheists have in common.
Ill wait....


There's no fucking god(s).
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#37

Yes, Virginia, Atheists Have a Worldview
I have a worldview. It's basically that the world would be a better place without religion.
No discrimination on the say so of a sky daddy. No honour killings. No morality police. No second class citizens.
My worldview doesn't involve the systematic abuse of children's rights or taking advantage of the vulnerable. It doesn't involve silly ancient books or outdated traditions.
All of the above has nothing to do with my non belief in God and I don't need to be a part of any group to say so.
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#38

Yes, Virginia, Atheists Have a Worldview
brewerb: Did the Vatican emphasize the right not to believe?

I think it was included in the broad category of "religious belief" or any sort of belief-system. People ought not be coerced.
[F]anatical atheists . . . can’t hear the music of the spheres. (Einstein, 8-7-41)
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#39

Yes, Virginia, Atheists Have a Worldview
Quote:People ought not be coerced.


[Image: auto-da-fe.jpg]



You've come a long way, baby.

Although I do suspect that the church would...if it could.  That's why the bastards have to be crushed.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#40

Yes, Virginia, Atheists Have a Worldview
(01-02-2024, 05:11 AM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:People ought not be coerced.


[Image: auto-da-fe.jpg]



You've come a long way, baby.

Although I do suspect that the church would...if it could.  That's why the bastards have to be crushed.

If you go down this road I can note that the atheist Communists have murdered exponentially more than the Church ever did. Even in the Inquisitions, that was mostly the civil governments, not the Church, executing folks. And the numbers have been grotesquely exaggerated.

But of course, you wouldn't acknowledge any of that. You're in a bubble, impervious to reason.
[F]anatical atheists . . . can’t hear the music of the spheres. (Einstein, 8-7-41)
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#41

Yes, Virginia, Atheists Have a Worldview
(01-02-2024, 05:57 AM)Dave Armstrong Wrote:
(01-02-2024, 05:11 AM)Minimalist Wrote: [Image: auto-da-fe.jpg]



You've come a long way, baby.

Although I do suspect that the church would...if it could.  That's why the bastards have to be crushed.

If you go down this road I can note that the atheist Communists have murdered exponentially more than the Church ever did. Even in the Inquisitions, that was mostly the civil governments, not the Church, executing folks. And the numbers have been grotesquely exaggerated.

But of course, you wouldn't acknowledge any of that. You're in a bubble, impervious to reason.

That's not the point that is being made here. The point is that now that the Church no longer has the power and support of the civil government nor possess the wealth, the influence and the armies it once had, it no longer oppress or even murders non-Christians. It's a good thing that the Church now denounces such violence and even apologized for its passed crimes in some cases (though they still have much more to apologize for still).

To me though, this seems a bit "convenient" I would not trust the Church or Christians in general to continue in this behavior should they return to a level of prestige and power they once held. I think persecutions for a wide variety of people are likely to return. This is especially the case if you listen to dominionist or Christian nationalists, people who actively seek to see the Church or their faith return to such a position of power and privilege. Fortunately, they are still a fairly small minority of Christians.
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#42

Yes, Virginia, Atheists Have a Worldview
(01-02-2024, 05:57 AM)Dave Armstrong Wrote:
(01-02-2024, 05:11 AM)Minimalist Wrote: [Image: auto-da-fe.jpg]



You've come a long way, baby.

Although I do suspect that the church would...if it could.  That's why the bastards have to be crushed.

If you go down this road I can note that the atheist Communists have murdered exponentially more than the Church ever did. Even in the Inquisitions, that was mostly the civil governments, not the Church, executing folks. And the numbers have been grotesquely exaggerated.

But of course, you wouldn't acknowledge any of that. You're in a bubble, impervious to reason.


An atheist didn’t drown everything in the name of atheism 

The monster you worship did that, didn’t it?

Did it to try and fix its fuckup, right?
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#43

Yes, Virginia, Atheists Have a Worldview
(01-02-2024, 06:11 AM)epronovost Wrote: I think persecutions for a wide variety of people are likely to return. This is especially the case if you listen to dominionist or Christian nationalists, people who actively seek to see the Church or their faith return to such a position of power and privilege. Fortunately, they are still a fairly small minority of Christians.
A minority that increasingly has the levers of power and is busy breaking down the checks and balances that have separated government from religion in this country. The speaker of the house is a very patient Christian nationalist just two heartbeats away from the Presidency. Kafkaesque as it is to have to say it, there is an even chance that Trump regains the White House in November, and while he is by no reasonable definition even a cultural Christian, he has and will pander to Christian dominionists and nationalists, as they are a critical part of what could loosely be called his coalition of support.

Large swaths of the country are already effectively under minority rule due to gerrymandering and other factors. Confidence in public institutions is at an all time low and so is voter participation, so it is very easy for a small but passionate minority to sway elections.
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#44

Yes, Virginia, Atheists Have a Worldview
(01-02-2024, 11:39 AM)1Sam15 Wrote:
(01-02-2024, 05:57 AM)Dave Armstrong Wrote: If you go down this road I can note that the atheist Communists have murdered exponentially more than the Church ever did. Even in the Inquisitions, that was mostly the civil governments, not the Church, executing folks. And the numbers have been grotesquely exaggerated.

But of course, you wouldn't acknowledge any of that. You're in a bubble, impervious to reason.


An atheist didn’t drown everything in the name of atheism 

The monster you worship did that, didn’t it?

Did it to try and fix its fuckup, right?
No atheist, ever, murdered anyone for atheism. Many CLAIMED to do so, and ignoramuses like Dave CLAIM the same. However, no one has yet shown how the claim "i do not believe in god(s)" must lead to "person/group x needs to be killed".

Christians/Catholics however......it is written in their holy book that their god has killed every single human being (innocent or not!) on the planet once* and ordered his "favourite people" to commit genocide more than once.


* and no, "he is god and allowed to so that is special pleading
R.I.P. Hannes
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#45

Yes, Virginia, Atheists Have a Worldview
(01-01-2024, 11:34 PM)Dave Armstrong Wrote: brewerb: Did the Vatican emphasize the right not to believe?

I think it was included in the broad category of "religious belief" or any sort of belief-system. People ought not be coerced.

Everything I read says it did not.

One shorty: https://thecatholicspirit.com/news/local...rch-today/

Edit: found this also, not very friendly to non believers: https://www.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/e...esiam.html
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#46

Yes, Virginia, Atheists Have a Worldview
(01-01-2024, 04:20 PM)Dave Armstrong Wrote:
Show ContentOP is in here.:

Oh, my goodness there's a lot to unpack here. First of all, welcome to the forum. I hope you enjoy your stay here and I hope the locals are treating you as well as you're treating them. Smile

You said some things in this post that I wanted to address (and reiterate what others are saying). 

Firstly, atheism is not a worldview or a belief. It may be that through discussing and comparing ideas, atheists may influence one another's thinking in the same way any group of people will be influential on one another. There are currently organizations promoting atheism or at least using atheism as the binding force that justifies that organization's existence, and these bodies may be viewed as the "authoritative voice" on what atheism is and who what constitutes the minimum criteria to be an atheist, but atheism as a movement with a truly cohesive message does not currently exist. Not in the sense in which I think you mean. 

Generally, atheists do not have strongly held beliefs in things that cannot be verified. They rely on their knowledge or generally accepted knowledge, and their senses to determine the veracity of a claim. If you challenge an atheist to validate their own existence, I believe a reasonable response (from anyone, atheist, agnostic, or theist) would be that they can think, feel, act, and experience things... therefore they must exist. It would be unnecessary to demonstrate their existence beyond this point. 

Likewise, atheists do not believe in the Big Bang. They accept the Big Bang Theory based on known science that demonstrates that our universe came into existence through an explosion of some kind. There is a boatload of math and science behind this theory that checks out based on what we know to be true. If a new hypothesis comes about that better explains the existence of the universe, and it becomes more widely accepted by the body of scientists who are educated enough to make these calls (ie: becomes a theory), atheists are more likely to adopt a new way of thinking based on new evidence. It was never a "belief" in the first place.

Atheists and Christians are very different (and also very similar, but that's a subject for another conversation), in that Christians have a need to be right and atheists have a need to understand to the best of their ability. 

When you talk to an atheist about their "beliefs", you're doing math in base 7 and they're doing math in base 10. The definitions of your words don't even carry over. 


Be well and once again, welcome to the forum.
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#47

Yes, Virginia, Atheists Have a Worldview
(01-02-2024, 01:42 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:
(01-02-2024, 11:39 AM)1Sam15 Wrote: An atheist didn’t drown everything in the name of atheism 

The monster you worship did that, didn’t it?

Did it to try and fix its fuckup, right?
No atheist, ever, murdered anyone for atheism. Many CLAIMED to do so, and ignoramuses like Dave CLAIM the same. However, no one has yet shown how the claim "i do not believe in god(s)" must lead to "person/group x needs to be killed".

Christians/Catholics however......it is written in their holy book that their god has killed every single human being (innocent or not!) on the planet once* and ordered his "favourite people" to commit genocide more than once.


* and no, "he is god and allowed to so that is special pleading

Believers - I wager - will never acknowledge this. It's far more convenient for them to pretend that marxism-leninism wasn't religion and that SU crimes were done in the name of disbelief as this allows them to build a false equivalence - we killed in name of our faith but you did too.
There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.


Socrates.
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#48

Yes, Virginia, Atheists Have a Worldview
(01-02-2024, 02:04 PM)Aliza Wrote: When you talk to an atheist about their "beliefs", you're doing math in base 7 and they're doing math in base 10. The definitions of your words don't even carry over. 


Be well and once again, welcome to the forum.

Thanks very much for the welcome and the explanation of atheists' beliefs as you construe them to be.
[F]anatical atheists . . . can’t hear the music of the spheres. (Einstein, 8-7-41)
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#49

Yes, Virginia, Atheists Have a Worldview
(01-02-2024, 02:26 PM)Szuchow Wrote: Believers - I wager - will never acknowledge this. It's far more convenient for them to pretend that marxism-leninism wasn't religion and that SU crimes were done in the name of disbelief as this allows them to build a false equivalence - we killed in name of our faith but you did too.

Everyone did in the past, and the terrorists continue to do so today (not Christians, who are being massacred daily in Nigeria and Iran sponsors terror all over the place) so why talk about it? It's boring and never goes anywhere. Anyone who knows history knows that in the past there was massive capital punishment in every cultural or religious system.

I'm just sick and tired about the exaggerated lies regarding the Inquisition: as if Christians were the worst murderers in the history of the world. Not by a LONG LONG shot . . . I've had idiot / brain dead anti-Catholic Protestants tell me that 68 million people were killed in the Inquisition. The population of Europe is estimated to have been 68 million in 1200. This must be where they got the number. So the Church killed the entire population of Europe, huh? Man, those are numbers that only the abortionists can top.

Historians who are actually experts on it estimate the real numbers of the Spanish Inquisition to be 3-5,000. Now THAT is some serious exaggeration! But it goes on all the time.
[F]anatical atheists . . . can’t hear the music of the spheres. (Einstein, 8-7-41)
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#50

Yes, Virginia, Atheists Have a Worldview
(01-02-2024, 02:26 PM)Szuchow Wrote:
(01-02-2024, 01:42 PM)Deesse23 Wrote: No atheist, ever, murdered anyone for atheism. Many CLAIMED to do so, and ignoramuses like Dave CLAIM the same. However, no one has yet shown how the claim "i do not believe in god(s)" must lead to "person/group x needs to be killed".

Christians/Catholics however......it is written in their holy book that their god has killed every single human being (innocent or not!) on the planet once* and ordered his "favourite people" to commit genocide more than once.


* and no, "he is god and allowed to so that is special pleading

Believers - I wager - will never acknowledge this. It's far more convenient for them to pretend that marxism-leninism wasn't religion and that SU crimes were done in the name of disbelief as this allows them to build a false equivalence - we killed in name of our faith but you did too.
Exactly, trying to frame atheism as "just another belief" is just a silent admission of every theist of how weak his own position of belief is.

P.S.: The only answer to my question as to what common "belief" all atheists have in common was (literally!): "disbelief in leprechauns." You cant make up this shit.
R.I.P. Hannes
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