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01-01-2024, 08:46 PM
Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 08:43 PM)mordant Wrote: (01-01-2024, 08:33 PM)Dānu Wrote: Citation needed. I would add that a Bible verse is not a citation.
Also I would very much challenge the notion that "ALL" men AND women believe to that degree in depravity, much less TOTAL depravity.
Individuals are capable of depravity to be sure. But that is not to suggest that they aren't also capable of virtue. Humans are walking contradictions. It is more economical to see this as competing needs / impulses rooted in biology and human nature. Otherwise it would be like saying, this dog bites people once in awhile, but other times it licks and plays with them peacefully, therefore, it has a sin nature in needs saving from". It may need training, or even a rabies shot, or it may have some other issue, and it would be better to have a correct diagnosis and an actual fix or else at least a better understanding of how to not get bitten in the future.
On an individual basis people can learn to nurture virtues like temperance and courage and to starve and control their baser impulses. Contrary to the learned helplessness conveyed by doctrines like the utter depravity of man.
On a species-wide basis and over time however I do not expect things to improve for the same reason I do not expect rabbits to be carnivores 1000 years from now, or for tigers to act like puppy dogs. Human nature in the large is determined by genetics and epigenetics, and it's best to be honest with ourselves about this. We are forever ratcheting back and forth between peace and war, freedom and authoritarianism, egalitarianism and exploitation. There aren't effective ways I've noticed to convey species-level learning on these topics indefinitely into the future across generations, so we keep repeating our mistakes. We are degenerating into such a phase as we speak, but it is not a sign of the end times (in the Biblical sense anyway) or the triumph of evil over good. It is just cause and effect.
Well, if you consider Scripture not to be a citation, then I'm coming up as short as all of you on a "fist cause."
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01-01-2024, 08:51 PM
Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 08:46 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: (01-01-2024, 08:43 PM)mordant Wrote: I would add that a Bible verse is not a citation.
Also I would very much challenge the notion that "ALL" men AND women believe to that degree in depravity, much less TOTAL depravity.
Individuals are capable of depravity to be sure. But that is not to suggest that they aren't also capable of virtue. Humans are walking contradictions. It is more economical to see this as competing needs / impulses rooted in biology and human nature. Otherwise it would be like saying, this dog bites people once in awhile, but other times it licks and plays with them peacefully, therefore, it has a sin nature in needs saving from". It may need training, or even a rabies shot, or it may have some other issue, and it would be better to have a correct diagnosis and an actual fix or else at least a better understanding of how to not get bitten in the future.
On an individual basis people can learn to nurture virtues like temperance and courage and to starve and control their baser impulses. Contrary to the learned helplessness conveyed by doctrines like the utter depravity of man.
On a species-wide basis and over time however I do not expect things to improve for the same reason I do not expect rabbits to be carnivores 1000 years from now, or for tigers to act like puppy dogs. Human nature in the large is determined by genetics and epigenetics, and it's best to be honest with ourselves about this. We are forever ratcheting back and forth between peace and war, freedom and authoritarianism, egalitarianism and exploitation. There aren't effective ways I've noticed to convey species-level learning on these topics indefinitely into the future across generations, so we keep repeating our mistakes. We are degenerating into such a phase as we speak, but it is not a sign of the end times (in the Biblical sense anyway) or the triumph of evil over good. It is just cause and effect.
Well, if you consider Scripture not to be a citation, then I'm coming up as short as all of you on a "fist cause."
So I won't waste my time with a Scriptural citation.
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01-01-2024, 08:52 PM
Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 08:46 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: [quote="mordant" pid='413902' dateline='1704141836']
I would add that a Bible verse is not a citation.
Well, if you consider Scripture not to be a citation, then I'm coming up as short as all of you on a "fist cause." A fist causes a bloody nose. Oh, wait ...
FIRST cause, not FIST cause.
Well I think you may be one of the few believers who has caught on that the set of things that we are willing to consider as evidence does not include quotes from holy books. Those are claims, not evidence.
Surely you have some evidence from other sources??
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01-01-2024, 08:53 PM
Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 08:39 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: (01-01-2024, 08:33 PM)Dānu Wrote: Citation needed.
OK, give me a few minutes. I will give you scripture for each line in that post.
The only citation I can give is from Scripture, so that's what it will be, as each line was derived from Scrilpturre.
I don't recognize the bible as authoritative, which I have in common with most men. Can you provide an authoritative source?
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.
Vivekananda
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01-01-2024, 08:56 PM
Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 08:52 PM)mordant Wrote: (01-01-2024, 08:46 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: [quote="mordant" pid='413902' dateline='1704141836']
I would add that a Bible verse is not a citation.
Well, if you consider Scripture not to be a citation, then I'm coming up as short as all of you on a "fist cause." A fist causes a bloody nose. Oh, wait ...
FIRST cause, not FIST cause.
Well I think you may be one of the few believers who has caught on that the set of things that we are willing to consider as evidence does not include quotes from holy books. Those are claims, not evidence.
Surely you have some evidence from other sources??
Hey, I'm human, I make mistakes, especially in spelling.
Give me some proof (I said proof, not a theory) of the "FIRST cause" if it is not God.
Then we can carry one with the conversation.
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01-01-2024, 08:58 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-01-2024, 08:59 PM by Dānu.)
Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 08:56 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: (01-01-2024, 08:52 PM)mordant Wrote: A fist causes a bloody nose. Oh, wait ...
FIRST cause, not FIST cause.
Well I think you may be one of the few believers who has caught on that the set of things that we are willing to consider as evidence does not include quotes from holy books. Those are claims, not evidence.
Surely you have some evidence from other sources??
Hey, I'm human, I make mistakes, especially in spelling.
Give me some proof (I said proof, not a theory) of the "FIRST cause" if it is not God.
Then we can carry one with the conversation.
What would be the point unless you can prove that the first cause is God. Can you?
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.
Vivekananda
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01-01-2024, 09:01 PM
Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 08:05 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: (01-01-2024, 07:40 PM)Cavebear Wrote: Dream on dude! There may have been some Jewish preacher named Jesus. He may have been influential in a minor way at the time. He may have crucified (the Romans loved doing that). But the rest of the story is just pure nonsense.
Are you aware that you are preaching to the non-choir? Atheists aren't falling for that kind of superstitious resurrection, et all. Give it a rest...
Well, if it is nothing, then you have nothing to worry about.
All I'm trying to do is answer any questions (I know there are very few) and give you some info opposite of science.
The opposite of science is ignorance.
It doesn't seem to me that you are actually answering any questions, just spouting off your beliefs hoping to convert someone. I don't go to religious sites to try to convert anyone there, so why are you here? Just curious. I try to understand the evangelical nature of theists sometimes.
38 years ago here, I could see The Milky Way. Then only the stars and planets. And now I can barely see the brightest planets sometimes.
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01-01-2024, 09:02 PM
Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 06:55 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: (01-01-2024, 06:46 PM)1Sam15 Wrote: How old are you Charlie?
18 1/2, just graduated from High School last year!
Na, just kidding! Probably older than you, my friend.
Age is just a number, I fell good in heart and sound of body.
I’m guessing you’re in your mid 80’s very close to your end, am I right?
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01-01-2024, 09:04 PM
Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 08:58 PM)Dānu Wrote: (01-01-2024, 08:56 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: Hey, I'm human, I make mistakes, especially in spelling.
Give me some proof (I said proof, not a theory) of the "FIRST cause" if it is not God.
Then we can carry one with the conversation.
What would be the point unless you can prove that the first cause is God. Can you?
Neither one of us can prove our points physically. I think that was God's reasoning, but anyway.
It goes back to God's way/ walking in faith, or man's way/ walking by sight.
Sometimes I find it amazing that God is so perfect in all that He does, and that man can find no way around His reasoning and purpose. We truly are at His mercy in more ways than one.
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01-01-2024, 09:05 PM
Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 07:20 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: Little did they know that when the Jews cried out to Pilate at the trial of Jesus, "crucify Him, crucify Him, let the blood of this man (Jesus) be on us and our children and our children's children," that God took that seriously and Israel became the most persecuted people in history.
Hey Chuck, what would xianity look like today if jesus wasn’t slaughtered per Yahwehs plan?
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01-01-2024, 09:33 PM
Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 03:25 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: The first rule of engagement with the opposition is to understand them.
And this is why every attempt you've made to engage with us has failed so spectacularly and laughably. You clearly don't understand us or our POV. You have your head stuck so far up the Bible's ass that you've lost the ability to critically evaluate your own beliefs.
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01-01-2024, 09:45 PM
Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 12:20 PM)mordant Wrote: So the passage is actually a garden variety denigration of knowledge and "mere" human wisdom, at least to whatever extent it doesn't agree with the scriptures. Being in any way educated or learned is a vice, and religious faith (pretty much the opposite of knowledge) is a virtue.
Which is one of the reasons that I find Christianity abhorrent - positively gloating about how fucking ignorant they are, and elevating faith to a virtue when it's more often a vice and a detriment to clear thinking.
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01-01-2024, 09:46 PM
Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 02:06 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: Paul was basically telling Timothy that the knowledge acquired through unbelief (knowledge/science) would be used against the Faith.
And this is as it should be. Knowledge and rationality are an excellent defence against useless and dangerous ideas.
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01-01-2024, 10:20 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-01-2024, 10:21 PM by rocinantexyz.)
Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 09:45 PM)Astreja Wrote: [...positively gloating about how fucking ignorant they are, and elevating faith to a virtue when it's more often a vice and a detriment to clear thinking. If I had my way, you wouldn't be allowed to operate heavy machinery (or get a drivers license) if you believe in magic (including god). They might let their invisible friend take the wheel.
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01-01-2024, 11:47 PM
Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 09:04 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: (01-01-2024, 08:58 PM)Dānu Wrote: What would be the point unless you can prove that the first cause is God. Can you?
Neither one of us can prove our points physically. I think that was God's reasoning, but anyway.
I didn't ask you to prove it physically, whatever that means. Can you prove it in any way? And stop straw-manning your way out of shit.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.
Vivekananda
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01-01-2024, 11:51 PM
Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 11:47 PM)Dānu Wrote: (01-01-2024, 09:04 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: Neither one of us can prove our points physically. I think that was God's reasoning, but anyway.
I didn't ask you to prove it physically, whatever that means. Can you prove it in any way? And stop straw-manning your way out of shit.
LOL, you're a feisty thing aren't you! All I have is Scripture and my personal experience with God.
You said before, what good is that. So I take it you don't want anything from Scripture.
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01-01-2024, 11:52 PM
Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 11:51 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: (01-01-2024, 11:47 PM)Dānu Wrote: I didn't ask you to prove it physically, whatever that means. Can you prove it in any way? And stop straw-manning your way out of shit.
LOL, you're a feisty thing aren't you! All I have is Scripture and my personal experience with God.
You said before, what good is that. So I take it you don't want anything from Scripture.
You can provide it, if you like, and I will give it the consideration it deserves. Deal?
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.
Vivekananda
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01-01-2024, 11:56 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-06-2024, 06:41 PM by Aliza.)
Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 11:51 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: (01-01-2024, 11:47 PM)Dānu Wrote: I didn't ask you to prove it physically, whatever that means. Can you prove it in any way? And stop straw-manning your way out of shit.
LOL, you're a feisty thing aren't you! All I have is Scripture and my personal experience with God.
You said before, what good is that. So I take it you don't want anything from Scripture.
you're a feisty thing aren't you!
Translation, this woman needs to know her fucken place
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01-01-2024, 11:58 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-06-2024, 06:41 PM by Aliza.)
Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 11:56 PM)1Sam15 Wrote: (01-01-2024, 11:51 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: LOL, you're a feisty thing aren't you! All I have is Scripture and my personal experience with God.
You said before, what good is that. So I take it you don't want anything from Scripture.
you're a feisty thing aren't you!
Translation, this woman needs to know her fucken place
Maybe your translation, I've always liked a spunky woman.
You're more likely to get the truth from them.
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01-02-2024, 12:01 AM
Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 11:52 PM)Dānu Wrote: (01-01-2024, 11:51 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: LOL, you're a feisty thing aren't you! All I have is Scripture and my personal experience with God.
You said before, what good is that. So I take it you don't want anything from Scripture.
You can provide it, if you like, and I will give it the consideration it deserves. Deal?
Coming up.
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01-02-2024, 12:03 AM
(This post was last modified: 01-06-2024, 06:41 PM by Aliza.)
Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 11:58 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: (01-01-2024, 11:56 PM)1Sam15 Wrote: you're a feisty thing aren't you!
Translation, this woman needs to know her fucken place
Maybe your translation, I've always liked a spunky woman.
You're more likely to get the truth from them.
Oh? so when you hear a woman giving you the truth does that change your belief?
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01-02-2024, 12:13 AM
Science Misuse
(01-02-2024, 12:01 AM)Charlie24 Wrote: (01-01-2024, 11:52 PM)Dānu Wrote: You can provide it, if you like, and I will give it the consideration it deserves. Deal?
Coming up.
Romans 6:23
" For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
This is both the physical death and the spiritual death that God declared would happen to man if they ate the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden. They go hand and hand. So how do we know this?
Revelation 20:6
"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."
See the bold "the second death," that has no power over them who belong to God?
This is the spiritual death (the second death) which is eternal separation from God in Hell.
For those who are lost without Christ, they will experience the first death which is physical, and then the "second death" at the Judgement of God.
The believer in Christ will only experience the first death, the physical death, but the "second death" has no power over him, his sins have been forgiven and he is justified before God.
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01-02-2024, 12:20 AM
Science Misuse
(01-02-2024, 12:13 AM)Charlie24 Wrote: (01-02-2024, 12:01 AM)Charlie24 Wrote: Coming up.
Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
This is both the physical death and the spiritual death that God declared would happen to man if they ate the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden. They go hand and hand. So how do we know this?
Revelation 20:6
"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."
See the bold "the second death," that has no power over them who belong to God?
This is the spiritual death (the second death) which is eternal separation from God in Hell.
For those who are lost without Christ, they will experience the first death which is physical, and then the "second death" at the Judgement of God.
The believer in Christ will only experience the first death, the physical death, but the "second death" has no power over him, his sins have been forgiven and he is justified before God.
Oh look, just the thing I need for this circular thing beside my desk!
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.
Vivekananda
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01-02-2024, 12:22 AM
Science Misuse
(01-02-2024, 12:20 AM)Dānu Wrote: (01-02-2024, 12:13 AM)Charlie24 Wrote: Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
This is both the physical death and the spiritual death that God declared would happen to man if they ate the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden. They go hand and hand. So how do we know this?
Revelation 20:6
"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."
See the bold "the second death," that has no power over them who belong to God?
This is the spiritual death (the second death) which is eternal separation from God in Hell.
For those who are lost without Christ, they will experience the first death which is physical, and then the "second death" at the Judgement of God.
The believer in Christ will only experience the first death, the physical death, but the "second death" has no power over him, his sins have been forgiven and he is justified before God.
Oh look, just the thing I need for this circular thing beside my desk!
File 13, I suppose. Ok
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01-02-2024, 04:40 AM
Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 04:39 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: Of what value is the scientists opinion, ideas, or beliefs if they can't nail down the "first cause" of creation.
Do you drive a car? Fly in aircraft? Use electricity? Take medications?
Thank scientists for all that and more.
“Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.
Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.”
― Napoleon Bonaparte
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