Science Misuse

[Charlie24]

Why don't you tell me?  You said you were knowledgeable about the scriptures.  Tell me what they say.  I'm just an ignorant bumpkis waiting to be enlightened.

No, I've read many of your posts, there's no doubt you are quite intelligent. 

You would be even more impressive to me if you had the Scripture understanding to go with your vast understanding of science.

Of what value is the scientists opinion, ideas, or beliefs if they can't nail down the "first cause" of creation.

I choose not to endeavor into that load of garbage.

Of course you will say that my faith is a load of garbage. 

So we stand at an impasse, and that will continue until we come to the end of this life.

[Dānu]

No, I've read many of your posts, there's no doubt you are quite intelligent. 

You would be even more impressive to me if you had the Scripture understanding to go with your vast understanding of science.

Of what value is the scientists opinion, ideas, or beliefs if they can't nail down the "first cause" of creation.

I choose not to endeavor into that load of garbage.

Of course you will say that my faith is a load of garbage. 

So we stand at an impasse, and that will continue until we come to the end of this life.

Are you talking to yourself? Some might get the wrong impression from that.

[Charlie24]

Of what value is the scientists opinion, ideas, or beliefs if they can't nail down the "first cause" of creation.

I choose not to endeavor into that load of garbage.

Of course you will say that my faith is a load of garbage. 

So we stand at an impasse, and that will continue until we come to the end of this life.

Are you talking to yourself?  Some might get the wrong impression from that.

Yea, I guess some would think so, haven't really given that thought.

I refer to it as a continuation of thought on my previous post.

I do that quite often as I attempt to make my thoughts fully understood to the other guy.

[mordant]

Of what value is the scientists opinion, ideas, or beliefs if they can't nail down the "first cause" of creation.

It wouldn't make sense to reject what science knows (and has demonstrated via applied science, aka "technology", to actually work) based upon it not knowing 100% of everything. So you wouldn't even do that. Right? ... right?

I guess what you're really saying with a question like this is that you absolutely MUST know the "first cause" for some reason, right now, even if you have to resort to a campfire story you like if nothing else is available and you want it laid out in such unambiguous, un-nuanced black and white terms that you will reject any methodology that doesn't provide it in just that way. As such, you are doomed to disappointment (or attachment to your preferred legends).

Science OTOH is fine with admitting it doesn't know, and then trying to devise testable hypotheses to remedy that. Sometimes that's a multi-generational effort though. So you really do have to get comfortable with the Three Magic Words, "I don't know". But for some reason some people simply can abide not knowing, at least not Certain Things.

I should warn you however that there is no way to devise a testable hypothesis about anything supernatural because science only deals with the natural world. As soon as it would make contact with god, for example, or identify him as the First Mover, god would become part of the natural world and be no different for scientific purposes than any other observable entity.

Many theists will admit that this is the reason religious faith is required; science is a "non-overlapping magisteria" with theism and you need a different tool, religious faith, for the alleged realm of spirit, as there is no evidence in the scientific sense. Or you just have to take the Bible's word for it (which is a less reasoned sort of religious faith, but it helps sometimes if you think as little as possible, I guess).

At any rate, science has some hypotheses about the origins of life from non-life (a topic that the theory of evolution does not address at all). Some of those are scientifically testable, or may become so in the future; others are more speculative. None are fully investigated, much less proven. This does not mean that the explanation in Genesis or any other holy book or religious tradition is likely to be correct in the end. Seen any talking snakes lately? How are there day and night cycles before the sun is even created? Etc.

[1Sam15]

Where did your godthing come from chuck?

I predict special pleading as your answer 


At some point in your gods history it was alone surrounded by nothing.

What did it use for its first creation?


What was the first thing your godthing created from no thing?

So obviously you can't show me a "first cause."

Where did God come from? I'm sorry, the Scripture does not tell us. The human mind is not capable of comprehending that.

There are many things that the Scripture makes no attempt to explain, again, the human mind cannot process that.

God tells us, "In the beginning God created..." that is taken by faith not by sight. It is from the heart that man believes unto righteousness, not by sight.

That's why there should be a balance of science and Scripture to understand more clearly the truth.

Why does your godthing keep knowledge from us?

What’s it afraid of?

[Charlie24]

Of what value is the scientists opinion, ideas, or beliefs if they can't nail down the "first cause" of creation.

It wouldn't make sense to reject what science knows (and has demonstrated via applied science, aka "technology", to actually work) based upon it not knowing 100% of everything. So you wouldn't even do that. Right? ... right?

I guess what you're really saying with a question like this is that you absolutely MUST know the "first cause" for some reason, right now, even if you have to resort to a campfire story you like if nothing else is available and you want it laid out in such unambiguous, un-nuanced black and white terms that you will reject any methodology that doesn't provide it in just that way. As such, you are doomed to disappointment (or attachment to your preferred legends).

Science OTOH is fine with admitting it doesn't know, and then trying to devise testable hypotheses to remedy that. Sometimes that's a multi-generational effort though. So you really do have to get comfortable with the Three Magic Words, "I don't know". But for some reason some people simply can abide not knowing, at least not Certain Things.

I should warn you however that there is no way to devise a testable hypothesis about anything supernatural because science only deals with the natural world. As soon as it would make contact with god, for example, or identify him as the First Mover, god would become part of the natural world and be no different for scientific purposes than any other observable entity.

Many theists will admit that this is the reason religious faith is required; science is a "non-overlapping magisteria" with theism and you need a different tool, religious faith, for the alleged realm of spirit, as there is no evidence in the scientific sense. Or you just have to take the Bible's word for it (which is a less reasoned sort of religious faith, but it helps sometimes if you think as little as possible, I guess).

At any rate, science has some hypotheses about the origins of life from non-life (a topic that the theory of evolution does not address at all). Some of those are scientifically testable, or may become so in the future; others are more speculative. None are fully investigated, much less proven. This does not mean that the explanation in Genesis or any other holy book or religious tradition is likely to be correct in the end. Seen any talking snakes lately? How are there day and night cycles before the sun is even created? Etc.

I'm certainly not going to throw away the gift of eternal life based on the "idea" that creation was by chance, when they have no proof that "in the beginning God created..." is a lie.

I have experienced the presence of power of the Holy Spirit in my being, to you nonsense, to me the power of God through faith in His Son. No scientist can refute that and no scientist will ever nail down a "fist cause" other than Jeremiah 32:17.

"Ah Lord God! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee."

[Dānu]

I'm certainly not going to throw away the gift of eternal life based on the "idea" that creation was by chance, when they have no proof that "in the beginning God created..." is a lie.

I have experienced the presence of power of the Holy Spirit in my being, to you nonsense, to me the power of God through faith in His Son. No scientist can refute that and no scientist will ever nail down a "fist cause" other than Jeremiah 32:17.

"Ah Lord God! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee."

[no one]

I find it hilarious that the Charlie's of the world, completely ignore anything that they can't "refute" with their scripture.

Anything that involves thinking, formulating your own conclusions, is abruptly passed over.

Astreja posted the very first reply, asking for some specific details, charlieboi, like the rest of the holy warriors, pretends it doesn't exist. 

COWARD!

[Charladele]

"I will certainly find time to study all of that and come to a clear understanding, just as soon as they prove a 'first cause.'"

So this is completely logical (said sarcastically). Since science can't explain every little thing about the universe, it must be wrong on everything. You remind me of a toddler holding his breath until he can get his own way.

We will never, ever know exactly what happened millions of years ago when the earth first formed, BECAUSE it happened millions of years ago, and we weren't there.

I mean, take for instance, the fact that you were born. How do you know? Yeah, you exist and your parents claim you were born. You also have a birth certificate. But people can lie and documents can be forged. So you can't really know for sure, because you don't remember it. Unless someone captured the event on video, you have no evidence. Yet, You can use your knowledge of the physical world (empirical knowledge i.e. science) and your own experience to determine that if a person exists, they most likely had to be born for that to be.

You/We will never have knowledge of something that happened a million years ago. It is not logical to expect it.

You, instead, reject science and logic and place your bet on some guy who wrote a book a long time ago who understood the universe even less than we do. Do you think that ANY of the authors of the Gospels knew those stars in the sky were suns, just like the sun that warms our planet? No they didn't. They also didn't know there were other universes other than ours. Or that there were tiny bits of material called Atoms. Or that electricity existed. We now know that stuff because of science. Yet you sincerely belief that the human writers of the bible were experts who knew the "first cause."

[1Sam15]

I find it hilarious that the Charlie's of the world, completely ignore anything that they can't "refute" with their scripture.

Anything that involves thinking, formulating your own conclusions, is abruptly passed over.

Astreja posted the very first reply, asking for some specific details, charlieboi, like the rest of the holy warriors, pretends it doesn't exist. 

COWARD!

their god wants them stupid

Proverbs 3:5-6
King James Version
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

[Charlie24]

I find it hilarious that the Charlie's of the world, completely ignore anything that they can't "refute" with their scripture.

Anything that involves thinking, formulating your own conclusions, is abruptly passed over.

Astreja posted the very first reply, asking for some specific details, charlieboi, like the rest of the holy warriors, pretends it doesn't exist. 

COWARD!

their god wants them stupid

Proverbs 3:5-6
King James Version
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

What is the understanding of all men/women in this world?

Man/woman is totally depraved, we have all lost our way when sin entered this world.

We have all fallen from what God originally intended for us to be, due to sin.

We are disconnected, separated from Him because of our sins.

In order to find our way back to Him, we have to leave behind the ways of sinful man and become a new man in Christ Jesus.

Then we can be what he originally created, intelligent, always making the right decision without failure.

We will have the relationship that God wants and intended for us to have with Him.

Each of us with our own personalities and freedom, but in a perfect world free from what now burdens us down in this world of sin.

[1Sam15]

their god wants them stupid

Proverbs 3:5-6
King James Version
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

What is the understanding of all men/women in this world?

Man/woman is totally depraved, we have all lost our way when sin entered this world.

We have all fallen from what God originally intended for us to be, due to sin.

We are disconnected, separated from Him because of our sins.

In order to find our way back to Him, we have to leave behind the ways of sinful man and become a new man in Christ Jesus.

Then we can be what he originally created, intelligent, always making the right decision without failure.

We will have the relationship that God wants and intended for us to have with Him.

Each of us with our own personalities and freedom, but in a perfect world free from what now burdens us down in this world of sin.

How old are you Charlie?

[Cavebear]

Is "science" even relevant to the bible?   When I looked it up, I got...

"1 Timothy 6:20-21
New International Version

20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some have professed and in so doing have departed from the faith."

Knowledge is not exactly the same as "science".  You can have knowledge of what you ate for breakfast or how to repair a machine, but science is more of a methodical testing process way of thinking.  I think Charlie24 is trying to slip a slight word-shift in his quote.  I doubt the bible ever actually uses the term "science" anywhere.  The concept of "science" didn't exist to the biblical writers.

Theists tend to favor faith over knowledge, of course, because unsupported faith is all they have to go on.  And science is beyond mere knowledge.  Knowledge is a mere fact, while science is the examination of what facts mean when collected and organized.

There you go, It has to do with the Agnostics an Atheist's of Paul' day. Mainly speaking of those who once believed and have turned from Christ looking for evidence while abandoning faith.

I never actually "turned from Christ" any more than I "turned from Mohammed" or "turned from Yaweh". All are mere superstitions that should have been abandoned long ago. I pay no more attention to your deity than I do Mithra, Odin, or Boratata (made that one up to show the point. They are all fake.

And you might want to look up the difference between agnostics without an opinion about theism) and atheists (without theism at all)...

[Charlie24]

What is the understanding of all men/women in this world?

Man/woman is totally depraved, we have all lost our way when sin entered this world.

We have all fallen from what God originally intended for us to be, due to sin.

We are disconnected, separated from Him because of our sins.

In order to find our way back to Him, we have to leave behind the ways of sinful man and become a new man in Christ Jesus.

Then we can be what he originally created, intelligent, always making the right decision without failure.

We will have the relationship that God wants and intended for us to have with Him.

Each of us with our own personalities and freedom, but in a perfect world free from what now burdens us down in this world of sin.

How old are you Charlie?

18 1/2, just graduated from High School last year!



Na, just kidding! Probably older than you, my friend.

Age is just a number, I fell good in heart and sound of body.

[Cavebear]

I sure am glad it's no longer 'Paul's Day'.

Now where did I put my $99.95 Frankenstein kit? It advertised that raising the dead can be fun for ages 10 and up!

Paul was basically telling Timothy that the knowledge acquired through unbelief (knowledge/science) would be used against the Faith. That's why he tells Timothy "keep that which has been committed unto your trust," in other words "The faith."

It wasn't written just for Timothy.

I agree. It was written for superstitious people who don't know how to actually "think". In the words of Mr T, "I pity the fools".

[Charlie24]

Paul was basically telling Timothy that the knowledge acquired through unbelief (knowledge/science) would be used against the Faith. That's why he tells Timothy "keep that which has been committed unto your trust," in other words "The faith."

It wasn't written just for Timothy.

I agree.  It was written for superstitious people who don't know how to actually "think".  In the words of Mr T, "I pity the fools".

That word "pity" reminds me of something.

After Jesus was scourged, that is, beaten nearly to death, they placed the cross beam of His Cross on His shoulders and led Him away to be crucified.

He was so weak from the beating that He couldn't carry the weight, so the Romans picked out of the crowd one, Simon, a Cyrenian, to carry the Cross for Him.

As He was lying there having fallen from the weight of the cross beam, many women surrounded Him weeping and wailing over Him. 

Jesus looked up at them and said, don't weep (feel pity and sorrow) for me, weep for yourselves and your children.

Little did they know that when the Jews cried out to Pilate at the trial of Jesus, "crucify Him, crucify Him, let the blood of this man (Jesus) be on us and our children and our children's children," that God took that seriously and Israel became the most persecuted people in history.

[mordant]

Little did they know that when the Jews cried out to Pilate at the trial of Jesus, "crucify Him, crucify Him, let the blood of this man (Jesus) be on us and our children and our children's children," that God took that seriously and Israel became the most persecuted people in history.

So you think those Christ killers SHOULD be persecuted. They have it coming, don't they?

[mordant]

I'm certainly not going to throw away the gift of eternal life based on the "idea" that creation was by chance, when they have no proof that "in the beginning God created..." is a lie.

Translation: I'm certainly not going to respond to a thing you said because of my straw man that you claim creation was by chance and can't disprove a negative, which I feel safe to have as a requirement since no one can do that about any topic".

I have experienced the presence of power of the Holy Spirit in my being, to you nonsense, to me the power of God through faith in His Son. No scientist can refute that and no scientist will ever nail down a "first cause" other than Jeremiah 32:17.

Yeah my dude, many of us had that personal subjective experience. You forget how many of use were believers. Some of us even from the same or substantially similar sect. Eventually you may find that willing a thing to be true doesn't make it true. Or maybe you won't ever figure that out -- it IS possible given a sufficient amount of dumb luck and inattention to reality.

All I can say is, good luck with that.

[Cavebear]

I agree.  It was written for superstitious people who don't know how to actually "think".  In the words of Mr T, "I pity the fools".

That word "pity" reminds me of something.

After Jesus was scourged, that is, beaten nearly to death, they placed the cross beam of His Cross on His shoulders and led Him away to be crucified.

He was so weak from the beating that He couldn't carry the weight, so the Romans picked out of the crowd one, Simon, a Cyrenian, to carry the Cross for Him.

As He was lying there having fallen from the weight of the cross beam, many women surrounded Him weeping and wailing over Him. 

Jesus looked up at them and said, don't weep (feel pity and sorrow) for me, weep for yourselves and your children.

Little did they know that when the Jews cried out to Pilate at the trial of Jesus, "crucify Him, crucify Him, let the blood of this man (Jesus) be on us and our children and our children's children," that God took that seriously and Israel became the most persecuted people in history.

Dream on dude! There may have been some Jewish preacher named Jesus. He may have been influential in a minor way at the time. He may have crucified (the Romans loved doing that). But the rest of the story is just pure nonsense.

Are you aware that you are preaching to the non-choir? Atheists aren't falling for that kind of superstitious resurrection, et all. Give it a rest...

[Charlie24]

Little did they know that when the Jews cried out to Pilate at the trial of Jesus, "crucify Him, crucify Him, let the blood of this man (Jesus) be on us and our children and our children's children," that God took that seriously and Israel became the most persecuted people in history.

So you think those Christ killers SHOULD be persecuted. They have it coming, don't they?

The Scripture tells us to love God's chosen people (the Jews/Israel) even though they are the enemies of the Cross of Christ, and to pray for the peace of Jerusalem. You see, contrary to popular belief, God is not finished with Israel by a long shot. He has just placed them on the back burner during this "Times of the Gentiles" which is the Gospel of Christ bringing in the Gentiles of the world into His Kingdom.

When that is accomplished, then He turns to Israel again with the power the world has never seen, and Paul said, "and all of Israel will be saved." God has not forsaken His chosen people (Israel) even though their failure of His calling was catastrophic.

[Cavebear]

I'm certainly not going to throw away the gift of eternal life based on the "idea" that creation was by chance, when they have no proof that "in the beginning God created..." is a lie.

Translation: I'm certainly not going to respond to a thing you said because of my straw man that you claim creation was by chance and can't disprove a negative, which I feel safe to have as a requirement since no one can do that about any topic".

I have experienced the presence of power of the Holy Spirit in my being, to you nonsense, to me the power of God through faith in His Son. No scientist can refute that and no scientist will ever nail down a "first cause" other than Jeremiah 32:17.

Yeah my dude, many of us had that personal subjective experience. You forget how many of use were believers. Some of us even from the same or substantially similar sect. Eventually you may find that willing a thing to be true doesn't make it true. Or maybe you won't ever figure that out -- it IS possible given a sufficient amount of dumb luck and inattention to reality.

All I can say is, good luck with that.

The most important word in your post was "were". More and more people are escaping the ancient superstitions these days. Some day, theism will seem like "flat earth". Not that I didn't like the whole post, but "were" was very important.

[Charlie24]

That word "pity" reminds me of something.

After Jesus was scourged, that is, beaten nearly to death, they placed the cross beam of His Cross on His shoulders and led Him away to be crucified.

He was so weak from the beating that He couldn't carry the weight, so the Romans picked out of the crowd one, Simon, a Cyrenian, to carry the Cross for Him.

As He was lying there having fallen from the weight of the cross beam, many women surrounded Him weeping and wailing over Him. 

Jesus looked up at them and said, don't weep (feel pity and sorrow) for me, weep for yourselves and your children.

Little did they know that when the Jews cried out to Pilate at the trial of Jesus, "crucify Him, crucify Him, let the blood of this man (Jesus) be on us and our children and our children's children," that God took that seriously and Israel became the most persecuted people in history.

Dream on dude!  There may have been some Jewish preacher named Jesus.  He may have been influential in a minor way at the time.  He may have crucified (the Romans loved doing that).  But the rest of the story is just pure nonsense.

Are you aware that you are preaching to the non-choir?  Atheists aren't falling for that kind of superstitious resurrection, et all.  Give it a rest...

Well, if it is nothing, then you have nothing to worry about. 

All I'm trying to do is answer any questions (I know there are very few) and give you some info opposite of science.

[Dānu]

their god wants them stupid

Proverbs 3:5-6
King James Version
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

What is the understanding of all men/women in this world?

Man/woman is totally depraved, we have all lost our way when sin entered this world.

We have all fallen from what God originally intended for us to be, due to sin.

We are disconnected, separated from Him because of our sins.

In order to find our way back to Him, we have to leave behind the ways of sinful man and become a new man in Christ Jesus.

Then we can be what he originally created, intelligent, always making the right decision without failure.

We will have the relationship that God wants and intended for us to have with Him.

Each of us with our own personalities and freedom, but in a perfect world free from what now burdens us down in this world of sin.

Citation needed.

[Charlie24]

What is the understanding of all men/women in this world?

Man/woman is totally depraved, we have all lost our way when sin entered this world.

We have all fallen from what God originally intended for us to be, due to sin.

We are disconnected, separated from Him because of our sins.

In order to find our way back to Him, we have to leave behind the ways of sinful man and become a new man in Christ Jesus.

Then we can be what he originally created, intelligent, always making the right decision without failure.

We will have the relationship that God wants and intended for us to have with Him.

Each of us with our own personalities and freedom, but in a perfect world free from what now burdens us down in this world of sin.

Citation needed.

OK, give me a few minutes. I will give you scripture for each line in that post.

The only citation I can give is from Scripture, so that's what it will be, as each line was derived from Scrilpturre.

[mordant]

What is the understanding of all men/women in this world?

Man/woman is totally depraved, we have all lost our way when sin entered this world.

We have all fallen from what God originally intended for us to be, due to sin.

We are disconnected, separated from Him because of our sins.

In order to find our way back to Him, we have to leave behind the ways of sinful man and become a new man in Christ Jesus.

Then we can be what he originally created, intelligent, always making the right decision without failure.

We will have the relationship that God wants and intended for us to have with Him.

Each of us with our own personalities and freedom, but in a perfect world free from what now burdens us down in this world of sin.

Citation needed.

I would add that a Bible verse is not a citation.

Also I would very much challenge the notion that "ALL" men AND women believe to that degree in depravity, much less TOTAL depravity.

Individuals are capable of depravity to be sure. But that is not to suggest that they aren't also capable of virtue. Humans are walking contradictions. It is more economical to see this as competing needs / impulses rooted in biology and human nature. Otherwise it would be like saying, this dog bites people once in awhile, but other times it licks and plays with them peacefully, therefore, it has a sin nature in needs saving from". It may need training, or even a rabies shot, or it may have some other issue, and it would be better to have a correct diagnosis and an actual fix or else at least a better understanding of how to not get bitten in the future.

On an individual basis people can learn to nurture virtues like temperance and courage and to starve and control their baser impulses. Contrary to the learned helplessness conveyed by doctrines like the utter depravity of man.

On a species-wide basis and over time however I do not expect things to improve for the same reason I do not expect rabbits to be carnivores 1000 years from now, or for tigers to act like puppy dogs. Human nature in the large is determined by genetics and epigenetics, and it's best to be honest with ourselves about this. We are forever ratcheting back and forth between peace and war, freedom and authoritarianism, egalitarianism and exploitation. There aren't effective ways I've noticed to convey species-level learning on these topics indefinitely into the future across generations, so we keep repeating our mistakes. We are degenerating into such a phase as we speak, but it is not a sign of the end times (in the Biblical sense anyway) or the triumph of evil over good. It is just cause and effect.