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Science Misuse
#1

Science Misuse
If you've ever wondered why Christians claim that Atheist's are misusing science, here it is straight from the Apostle Paul's pen. 

Don't blame me, I'm just letting you know it's in Scripture.

! Timothy 6:20-21

"O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen."
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#2

Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 04:00 AM)Charlie24 Wrote: If you've ever wondered why Christians claim that Atheist's are misusing science, here it is straight from the Apostle Paul's pen...
 

Why should a non-Christian give a flying fuck about anything that Paul allegedly said?

This doesn't even have anything to do with science, aside from the use of the word "science' in the quote.  You really must be desperate to "make a sale," Charlie, or hopelessly in love with the sound of your own bleating voice.  Can you even explain the scientific method in your own words in 100 words or less?
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#3

Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 04:00 AM)Charlie24 Wrote: If you've ever wondered why Christians claim that Atheist's are misusing science, here it is straight from the Apostle Paul's pen. 

I actually never heard that Christians claim that atheists are misusing science; misunderstanding scriptures or misconstruing their beliefs and traditions, yes. Then again, the overwhelming majority of Christians don't care that much about atheists. 

I do find comical that you are basically quoting a vague, out of context quote from the NT, at some atheists to chastise them. 

You might as well quote Mao Zedong red book at me to chastise my lack of revolutionary instinct and my urban and cosmopolitan lifestyle. Since I am not a maoist in any way shape or form, this is pointless.

I already knew you didn't like atheism and are suspicious of appeal to science or naturalism in general. You didn't need to tell us that it was because of your religious belief. We assumed it was the case. You didn't need either to provide a quote from your scriptures about it either. Religions, as a rule, are not heavy on rational skepticism either.
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#4

Science Misuse
Is "science" even relevant to the bible? When I looked it up, I got...

"1 Timothy 6:20-21
New International Version

20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some have professed and in so doing have departed from the faith
."

Knowledge is not exactly the same as "science". You can have knowledge of what you ate for breakfast or how to repair a machine, but science is more of a methodical testing process way of thinking. I think Charlie24 is trying to slip a slight word-shift in his quote. I doubt the bible ever actually uses the term "science" anywhere. The concept of "science" didn't exist to the biblical writers.

Theists tend to favor faith over knowledge, of course, because unsupported faith is all they have to go on. And science is beyond mere knowledge. Knowledge is a mere fact, while science is the examination of what facts mean when collected and organized.
Never try to catch a dropped kitchen knife!
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#5

Science Misuse
FWIW, here's the original Greek of Timothy 6:20:

Ὦ Τιμόθεε,τὴν παραθήκην φύλαξον, ἐκτρεπόμενος τὰς βεβήλους, κενοφωνίας καὶ ἀντιθέσεις τῆς ψευδωνύμου γνώσεως.

A quick run through Google Translate, cross-checked against my [still beginner-level] Greek studies:  "O Timothy, guard the tradition, turning aside the blasphemies, slander and contradictions of pseudo-knowledge."

The highlighted word is gnoseos  - knowledge.  Not "science," per se. The Greek word for science is επιστήμη, "episteme" or "epistimi," depending on how you transliterate the eta character.
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#6

Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 07:18 AM)Astreja Wrote: FWIW, here's the original Greek of Timothy 6:20:

Ὦ Τιμόθεε,τὴν παραθήκην φύλαξον, ἐκτρεπόμενος τὰς βεβήλους, κενοφωνίας καὶ ἀντιθέσεις τῆς ψευδωνύμου γνώσεως.

A quick run through Google Translate, cross-checked against my [still beginner-level] Greek studies:  "O Timothy, guard the tradition, turning aside the blasphemies, slander and contradictions of pseudo-knowledge."

The highlighted word is gnoseos  - knowledge.  Not "science," per se.  The Greek word for science is επιστήμη, "episteme" or "epistimi," depending on how you transliterate the eta character.
So the passage is actually a garden variety denigration of knowledge and "mere" human wisdom, at least to whatever extent it doesn't agree with the scriptures. Being in any way educated or learned is a vice, and religious faith (pretty much the opposite of knowledge) is a virtue.
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#7

Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 06:50 AM)Cavebear Wrote: Is "science" even relevant to the bible?   When I looked it up, I got...

"1 Timothy 6:20-21
New International Version

20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some have professed and in so doing have departed from the faith
."

Knowledge is not exactly the same as "science".  You can have knowledge of what you ate for breakfast or how to repair a machine, but science is more of a methodical testing process way of thinking.  I think Charlie24 is trying to slip a slight word-shift in his quote.  I doubt the bible ever actually uses the term "science" anywhere.  The concept of "science" didn't exist to the biblical writers.

Theists tend to favor faith over knowledge, of course, because unsupported faith is all they have to go on.  And science is beyond mere knowledge.  Knowledge is a mere fact, while science is the examination of what facts mean when collected and organized.

There you go, It has to do with the Agnostics an Atheist's of Paul' day. Mainly speaking of those who once believed and have turned from Christ looking for evidence while abandoning faith.
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#8

Science Misuse
I sure am glad it's no longer 'Paul's Day'.

Now where did I put my $99.95 Frankenstein kit? It advertised that raising the dead can be fun for ages 10 and up!
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#9

Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 01:51 PM)brewerb Wrote: I sure am glad it's no longer 'Paul's Day'.

Now where did I put my $99.95 Frankenstein kit? It advertised that raising the dead can be fun for ages 10 and up!

Paul was basically telling Timothy that the knowledge acquired through unbelief (knowledge/science) would be used against the Faith. That's why he tells Timothy "keep that which has been committed unto your trust," in other words "The faith."

It wasn't written just for Timothy.
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#10

Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 02:06 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-01-2024, 01:51 PM)brewerb Wrote: I sure am glad it's no longer 'Paul's Day'.

Now where did I put my $99.95 Frankenstein kit? It advertised that raising the dead can be fun for ages 10 and up!

Paul was basically telling Timothy that the knowledge acquired through unbelief (knowledge/science) would be used against the Faith. That's why he tells Timothy "keep that which has been committed unto your trust," in other words "The faith."

It wasn't written just for Timothy.

You're obviously humor impaired. Should indicate to you that I can't take you seriously, you're just to damn absurd.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#11

Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 03:18 PM)brewerb Wrote:
(01-01-2024, 02:06 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: Paul was basically telling Timothy that the knowledge acquired through unbelief (knowledge/science) would be used against the Faith. That's why he tells Timothy "keep that which has been committed unto your trust," in other words "The faith."

It wasn't written just for Timothy.

You're obviously humor impaired. Should indicate to you that I can't take you seriously, you're just to damn absurd.

I know it's hard to take. But you need to know these things for future reference.

The first rule of engagement with the opposition is to understand them.
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#12

Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 03:25 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-01-2024, 03:18 PM)brewerb Wrote: You're obviously humor impaired. Should indicate to you that I can't take you seriously, you're just to damn absurd.

I know it's hard to take. But you need to know these things for future reference.

The first rule of engagement with the opposition is to understand them.

I don't consider you opposition and I don't want to understand you, at least not with the behavior you've demonstrated here.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#13

Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 03:25 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-01-2024, 03:18 PM)brewerb Wrote: You're obviously humor impaired. Should indicate to you that I can't take you seriously, you're just to damn absurd.

I know it's hard to take. But you need to know these things for future reference.

The first rule of engagement with the opposition is to understand them.

I have a soft heart for the Agnostics and Atheists. After all these many years of conversation with them I've yet to meet one who has even an elementary understanding of the Scriptures.

Science is good, I'm all for it and I keep up with it. At the same time I further my studies in the Scriptures.

It seems to me that one must, or at least should have knowledge of both science and the Scriptures in order to make the correct decisions on the matter.
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#14

Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 03:38 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-01-2024, 03:25 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: I know it's hard to take. But you need to know these things for future reference.

The first rule of engagement with the opposition is to understand them.

I have a soft heart for the Agnostics and Atheists. After all these many years of conversation with them I've yet to meet one who has even an elementary understanding of the Scriptures.

Science is good, I'm all for it and I keep up with it. At the same time I further my studies in the Scriptures.

It seems to me that one must, or at least should have knowledge of both science and the Scriptures in order to make the correct decisions on the matter.

Then you're familiar with what the Upanishads say on this question, correct?
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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#15

Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 03:48 PM)Dānu Wrote:
(01-01-2024, 03:38 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: I have a soft heart for the Agnostics and Atheists. After all these many years of conversation with them I've yet to meet one who has even an elementary understanding of the Scriptures.

Science is good, I'm all for it and I keep up with it. At the same time I further my studies in the Scriptures.

It seems to me that one must, or at least should have knowledge of both science and the Scriptures in order to make the correct decisions on the matter.

Then you're familiar with what the Upanishads say on this question, correct?

No, I'm not as advanced into science as you, not even close.

I'm still stuck on scientists finding proof of the "first cause."

I found it in the Scrilpture, but the scientists are having problems.
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#16

Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 03:57 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-01-2024, 03:48 PM)Dānu Wrote: Then you're familiar with what the Upanishads say on this question, correct?

No, I'm not as advanced into science as you, not even close.

I'm still stuck on scientists finding proof of the "first cause."

I found it in the Scrilpture, but the scientists are having problems.

The Upanishads are scripture. You said you are knowledgeable about scripture. So why don't you know what the Upanishads say?
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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#17

Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 04:02 PM)Dānu Wrote:
(01-01-2024, 03:57 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: No, I'm not as advanced into science as you, not even close.

I'm still stuck on scientists finding proof of the "first cause."

I found it in the Scrilpture, but the scientists are having problems.

The Upanishads are scripture.  You said you are knowledgeable about scripture.  So why don't you know what the Upanishads say?

I will certainly find time to study all of that and come to a clear understanding, just as soon as they prove a "first cause."

Until then I think I'll further my studies in Scripture.
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#18

Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 04:06 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-01-2024, 04:02 PM)Dānu Wrote: The Upanishads are scripture.  You said you are knowledgeable about scripture.  So why don't you know what the Upanishads say?

I will certainly find time to study all of that and come to a clear understanding, just as soon as they prove a "first cause."

Until then I think I'll further my studies in Scripture.

So you're going to read the Upanishads then? They have as much to say about a first cause as any other scripture. So, get to it, and tell me what the Upanishads say on that score. I await your answer.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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#19

Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 04:09 PM)Dānu Wrote:
(01-01-2024, 04:06 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: I will certainly find time to study all of that and come to a clear understanding, just as soon as they prove a "first cause."

Until then I think I'll further my studies in Scripture.

So you're going to read the Upanishads then?  They have as much to say about a first cause as any other scripture.  So, get to it, and tell me what the Upanishads say on that score.  I await your answer.

In short form (you do understand short) tell me what they say the "first cause" is.

And them tell me where it came from and then show me the proof.
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#20

Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 03:57 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-01-2024, 03:48 PM)Dānu Wrote: Then you're familiar with what the Upanishads say on this question, correct?

No, I'm not as advanced into science as you, not even close.

I'm still stuck on scientists finding proof of the "first cause."

I found it in the Scrilpture, but the scientists are having problems.

Where did your godthing come from chuck?

I predict special pleading as your answer 


At some point in your gods history it was alone surrounded by nothing.

What did it use for its first creation?


What was the first thing your godthing created from no thing?
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#21

Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 04:12 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-01-2024, 04:09 PM)Dānu Wrote: So you're going to read the Upanishads then?  They have as much to say about a first cause as any other scripture.  So, get to it, and tell me what the Upanishads say on that score.  I await your answer.

In short form (you do understand short) tell me what they say the "first cause" is.

And them tell me where it came from and then show me the proof.

Why don't you tell me? You said you were knowledgeable about the scriptures. Tell me what they say. I'm just an ignorant bumpkis waiting to be enlightened.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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#22

Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 04:14 PM)1Sam15 Wrote:
(01-01-2024, 03:57 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: No, I'm not as advanced into science as you, not even close.

I'm still stuck on scientists finding proof of the "first cause."

I found it in the Scrilpture, but the scientists are having problems.

Where did your godthing come from chuck?

I predict special pleading as your answer 


At some point in your gods history it was alone surrounded by nothing.

What did it use for its first creation?


What was the first thing your godthing created from no thing?

So obviously you can't show me a "first cause."

Where did God come from? I'm sorry, the Scripture does not tell us. The human mind is not capable of comprehending that.

There are many things that the Scripture makes no attempt to explain, again, the human mind cannot process that.

God tells us, "In the beginning God created..." that is taken by faith not by sight. It is from the heart that man believes unto righteousness, not by sight.

That's why there should be a balance of science and Scripture to understand more clearly the truth.
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#23

Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 04:22 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-01-2024, 04:14 PM)1Sam15 Wrote: Where did your godthing come from chuck?

I predict special pleading as your answer 


At some point in your gods history it was alone surrounded by nothing.

What did it use for its first creation?


What was the first thing your godthing created from no thing?

So obviously you can't show me a "first cause."

Where did God come from? I'm sorry, the Scripture does not tell us. The human mind is not capable of comprehending that.

There are many things that the Scripture makes no attempt to explain, again, the human mind cannot process that.

God tells us, "In the beginning God created..." that is taken by faith not by sight. It is from the heart that man believes unto righteousness, not by sight.

That's why there should be a balance of science and Scripture to understand more clearly the truth.

Then your scripture says nothing about first causes either. What the hell? You lied to us!
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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#24
Rainbow 
Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 04:22 PM)Dānu Wrote:
(01-01-2024, 04:12 PM)Charlie24 Wrote: In short form (you do understand short) tell me what they say the "first cause" is.

And them tell me where it came from and then show me the proof.

Why don't you tell me?  You said you were knowledgeable about the scriptures.  Tell me what they say.  I'm just an ignorant bumpkis waiting to be enlightened.

No, I've read many of your posts, there's no doubt you are quite intelligent. 

You would be even more impressive to me if you had the Scripture understanding to go with your vast understanding of science.
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#25

Science Misuse
(01-01-2024, 04:26 PM)Charlie24 Wrote:
(01-01-2024, 04:22 PM)Dānu Wrote: Why don't you tell me?  You said you were knowledgeable about the scriptures.  Tell me what they say.  I'm just an ignorant bumpkis waiting to be enlightened.

No, I've read many of your posts, there's no doubt you are quite intelligent. 

You would be even more impressive to me if you had the Scripture understanding to go with your vast understanding of science.

Being ignorant isn't the same as being unintelligent. Anyway, still awaiting your answer as to what the Upanishads say about beginnings. My google-fu is weak. Impress me with your ken.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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