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Most ethical universe
#1

Most ethical universe
You are god, and must choose one of two universe for everyone to live in. Sorry for the length. I had to copy paste from this site called Wait But Why.  Sad

The first option is a checkerboard where each and every one of the infinite number of humans you create on the squares is in a constant state of sadness and horrible suffering. But after you create the board, you’ll be able to use a medicine dropper to squeeze a single drop of happiness somewhere on the board. The drop of happiness will immediately begin to expand outward in all directions, and each time the drop’s expanding circle hits a new square, the person on that square suddenly becomes overwhelmingly happy and fulfilled and free of all suffering, and they’ll stay this way for the rest of eternity. The happiness drop will continue expanding outward for eternity.

The second option is the exact opposite. The board you create is full of an infinite number of blissfully happy people. But you’ll have to use that same medicine dropper to squeeze a drop of sadness onto the board, which will immediately and rapidly expand outward in all directions and continue for eternity. Each time the drop’s reach covers a new square, the person on that square becomes unbelievably sad and full of the worst suffering, and they’ll remain that way forever thereafter.


The issue with the happy board is that everyone on it is happy at the beginning but at some point that will end. And once it does, they will be sad forever thereafter. So each person is happy for a finite amount of time and then sad for an infinite amount of time.

But the number of sad people on the happy board is finite, because they’re all contained within the expanding circle of sadness, while the number of happy people on the board is infinite, because there is an infinite number of people outside the sadness circle.


The sad board has the opposite situation. Each person on it will be sad for a finite amount of time and happy for a vastly larger, infinite amount of time, but at any given point in time there will be a far larger number of sad people on the board than happy people, because the number of sad people will be infinite and the number of happy people finite.
Gandalf 
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#2

Most ethical universe
The number of people is never infinite, it is finite. Which makes this something of a question of rates, which you didn't specify.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
The following 1 user Likes Dānu's post:
  • Cavebear
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#3

Most ethical universe
Just developed sudden onset apathy.  Deadpan Coffee Drinker
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
The following 1 user Likes brewerb's post:
  • Chas
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#4

Most ethical universe
(12-16-2023, 03:48 AM)Dānu Wrote: The number of people is never infinite, it is finite.  Which makes this something of a question of rates, which you didn't specify.

You do create infinite people in both scenarios. The number of people in the drop is whats finite.
Gandalf 
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#5

Most ethical universe
A universe with ethics, would be devoid of hoomans.
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#6

Most ethical universe
(12-16-2023, 04:17 AM)Jarsa Wrote:
(12-16-2023, 03:48 AM)Dānu Wrote: The number of people is never infinite, it is finite.  Which makes this something of a question of rates, which you didn't specify.

You do create infinite people in both scenarios. The number of people in the drop is whats finite.

Sorry, I missed that part. Your understanding of infinity is a bit off though. In the initial infinite happy board, there will always be an infinite number of happy people, regardless. That's simply how infinity works.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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#7

Most ethical universe
(12-16-2023, 04:17 AM)Jarsa Wrote:
(12-16-2023, 03:48 AM)Dānu Wrote: The number of people is never infinite, it is finite.  Which makes this something of a question of rates, which you didn't specify.

You do create infinite people in both scenarios. The number of people in the drop is whats finite.

If you can create an infinite number of people then certainly you can create an infinite number of drops.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#8

Most ethical universe
(12-16-2023, 04:17 AM)Jarsa Wrote: You do create infinite people in both scenarios. The number of people in the drop is whats finite.
Why is the number in the drop always finite?
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#9

Most ethical universe
(12-16-2023, 06:36 PM)rocinantexyz Wrote:
(12-16-2023, 04:17 AM)Jarsa Wrote: You do create infinite people in both scenarios. The number of people in the drop is whats finite.
Why is the number in the drop always finite?

Because when there are infinite happy people, you make a drop in one square, which keeps spreading. This means that the numbers of squares in the drop will always be finite while there is still infinite people outside.
Gandalf 
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#10

Most ethical universe
(12-16-2023, 02:27 PM)brewerb Wrote:
(12-16-2023, 04:17 AM)Jarsa Wrote: You do create infinite people in both scenarios. The number of people in the drop is whats finite.

If you can create an infinite number of people then certainly you can create an infinite number of drops.

Of course, you could, but for now, you can only choose between these 2 scenarios. Which is more ethical/ which would you live in.
Gandalf 
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#11

Most ethical universe
(12-16-2023, 02:12 PM)Dānu Wrote:
(12-16-2023, 04:17 AM)Jarsa Wrote: You do create infinite people in both scenarios. The number of people in the drop is whats finite.

Sorry, I missed that part.  Your understanding of infinity is a bit off though.  In the initial infinite happy board, there will always be an infinite number of happy people, regardless.  That's simply how infinity works.

Yes that's the point of the question.

At any given point in time, the number of sad people on the happy board is finite, because they’re all contained within the expanding circle of sadness, while the number of happy people on the board is infinite, because there is an infinite number of people outside the sadness circle.

The sad board has the opposite situation. Each person on it will be sad for a finite amount of time and happy for a vastly larger, infinite amount of time—but at any given point in time there will be a far larger number of sad people on the board than happy people, because the number of sad people will be infinite and the number of happy people finite.

So which of these is more ethical/would you want to live in
Gandalf 
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#12

Most ethical universe
Will there ever be a boy born who can swim as fast as a shark? Perhaps I'll start a thread...

RE the OP = obviously the second option/universe is preferable. Pointless fucking question, nevertheless.
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#13

Most ethical universe
(12-16-2023, 09:39 PM)Jarsa Wrote:
(12-16-2023, 02:27 PM)brewerb Wrote: If you can create an infinite number of people then certainly you can create an infinite number of drops.

Of course, you could, but for now, you can only choose between these 2 scenarios. Which is more ethical/ which would you live in.

Neither, in the end they both sounds like Hell to me. Is there a KMN option?
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#14

Most ethical universe
I say we dust off and nuke it from orbit.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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  • rocinantexyz, Unsapien
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#15

Most ethical universe
(12-16-2023, 09:48 PM)Dexta Wrote: Will there ever be a boy born who can swim as fast as a shark? Perhaps I'll start a thread...

RE the OP = obviously the second option/universe is preferable. Pointless fucking question, nevertheless.

Maybe you should think about which universe you would like to live. Would you rather be happy for a finite time and then be sad forever or be sad for a finite time and then happy forever.

Actually try using your brain before making up your mind about the answer.
Gandalf 
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#16

Most ethical universe
(12-16-2023, 09:38 PM)Jarsa Wrote: Because when there are infinite happy people, you make a drop in one square, which keeps spreading. This means that the numbers of squares in the drop will always be finite while there is still infinite people outside.
I was hoping you could explain why that is the case; simply repeating the statement it not helping.
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#17

Most ethical universe
(12-17-2023, 04:36 AM)rocinantexyz Wrote:
(12-16-2023, 09:38 PM)Jarsa Wrote: Because when there are infinite happy people, you make a drop in one square, which keeps spreading. This means that the numbers of squares in the drop will always be finite while there is still infinite people outside.
I was hoping you could explain why that is the case; simply repeating the statement it not helping.

So the drop is slowly expanding, right? It's like a circle that keeps getting bigger, and everyone in the circle is finite because you can calculate a circle area with pi.  Therefore, the number of people in the circle will constantly increase as the circle gets bigger, but will still be finite.

Try this: https://waitbutwhy.com/table/the-infinit...d-quandary
Gandalf 
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#18

Most ethical universe
(12-16-2023, 11:24 PM)Jarsa Wrote:
(12-16-2023, 09:48 PM)Dexta Wrote: Will there ever be a boy born who can swim as fast as a shark? Perhaps I'll start a thread...

RE the OP = obviously the second option/universe is preferable. Pointless fucking question, nevertheless.

Maybe you should think about which universe you would like to live. Would you rather be happy for a finite time and then be sad forever or be sad for a finite time and then happy forever.

Actually try using your brain before making up your mind about the answer.

Any finite number, when compared to infinity, is as close to zero as makes no difference, but for illustrative purposes we'll say that after 1 million years of scenario two 0.01% of people are unhappy. That would mean that 99.99% of the people are happy. Therefore scenario two is obviously preferable to scenario one, where the figures would be the other way around.

You said something about using my brain? Jog on.
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#19

Most ethical universe
(12-17-2023, 05:16 AM)Jarsa Wrote: So the drop is slowly expanding, right?
How about if its rate of grow is "fast"; like say the area becomes unbounded after 3 units of time? Then it won't always be finite.
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#20

Most ethical universe
(12-17-2023, 07:41 AM)Dexta Wrote:
(12-16-2023, 11:24 PM)Jarsa Wrote: Maybe you should think about which universe you would like to live. Would you rather be happy for a finite time and then be sad forever or be sad for a finite time and then happy forever.

Actually try using your brain before making up your mind about the answer.

Any finite number, when compared to infinity, is as close to zero as makes no difference, but for illustrative purposes we'll say that after 1 million years of scenario two 0.01% of people are unhappy. That would mean that 99.99% of the people are happy. Therefore scenario two is obviously preferable to scenario one, where the figures would be the other way around.

You said something about using my brain? Jog on.

Obviously thats better for the society as a whole, but what about for the individual? If you were to live in the second scenario, you would be happy, but only until the circle expands enough to cover you. Wouldnt it be better to be sad for some time and then be happy forever than happy for some time then sad forever?
Gandalf 
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#21

Most ethical universe
(12-17-2023, 08:24 AM)rocinantexyz Wrote:
(12-17-2023, 05:16 AM)Jarsa Wrote: So the drop is slowly expanding, right?
How about if its rate of grow is "fast"; like say the area becomes unbounded after 3 units of time? Then it won't always be finite.

Even if the circle doubles in size every second, its area will get bigger and bigger but never comparable to infinity. What do you mean by unbounded?
Gandalf 
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#22

Most ethical universe
(12-18-2023, 12:12 AM)Jarsa Wrote: What do you mean by unbounded?
Why can't an infinite number be added during a finite time period?
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#23

Most ethical universe
(12-18-2023, 01:28 AM)rocinantexyz Wrote:
(12-18-2023, 12:12 AM)Jarsa Wrote: What do you mean by unbounded?
Why can't an infinite number be added during a finite time period?

Because the rate of expansion is not infinity. Like say the area of circle is 2. if it doubles every second, 2 4 8 16 32 64 it keep getting bigger. But even if you wait trillion year, its just 2 to the power of trillion which is still not infinity. Technically since you are god, you could make the rate of expansion infinty but in this question there are only two options for you to choose from.
Gandalf 
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#24

Most ethical universe
(12-18-2023, 02:16 AM)Jarsa Wrote: Because the rate of expansion is not infinity.
Why not; I mean that restriction wasn't included at the start, right?
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#25

Most ethical universe
(12-18-2023, 12:10 AM)Jarsa Wrote: Wouldnt it be better to be sad for some time and then be happy forever than happy for some time then sad forever?

Of course, was that a serious question?! I hate this thread, it's totally dumb.  Thumbsdown
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