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How do you explain NDEs?
#76

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-13-2023, 07:20 PM)Jarsa Wrote: I get that NDEs are because of hallucinations, but that book I mentioned talks about cases where the victim had an out of body experience and saw something that later turned out to be accurate.
 

Saw something that later turned out to be accurate to what degree? Let's say his hallucination was that of their own operation which is not too far fetch. People who dream can often choose their dreams or dream about things that are preoccupying them... like a life or death operation. As it was explained before making a fairly accurate description of an operating theatre is fairly easy. They claim to recognize the doctors and the nurse? Do they really? Doctors and nurses in an operation theatre fairly wear loose fitting garment all over their bodies. They have special nets for their hair as well as surgical masks hiding their traits. A nurse in an operation theatre is about as covered as your casual Saudi Arabian woman in public and the same goes for doctors. Plus, in many cases, these operations were scheduled which means they might have met the doctor and nurses briefly before the operation and had the operation explained to them. It's very easy to make a fairly detailed and accurate description of any operation or operating theatre and then add more amazing detail by repeated retelling of the story.

Quote:I don't know if this is true, but I mean, how could someone blatantly lie in a published book?

Published books are filled with mistakes and errors. Published doesn't mean peer reviewed and even peer reviewed journals have published trash from time to time. No system is perfect.
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#77

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-13-2023, 07:20 PM)Jarsa Wrote: ... how could someone blatantly lie in a published book ...?

How could this not be anything but sarcasm, yet its context suggests it's meant as a serious question.  There are people who make a living publishing lies - they might even outnumber the writers who are honest.  See Capt. Renault closing down Rick's Cafe in the movie "Casablanca" for an instance of "surprise" that nefarious goings on are going on.
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#78

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-13-2023, 04:55 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: [quote="Huggy Bear" pid='412764' dateline='1702462212']

Clinical death is defined as no breathing and no heartbeat, brain death is defined as no brain function. According to the brain surgeon (in the case of Pam Reynolds), their patient was experiencing all the above, why is it so hard for you to accept that a brain surgeon just may know what he's talking about?

The definition of death includes the word IRREVERSIBLE, so if a dead person was brought back to life after a year, it would still only classify as an NDE.


OooOOOooo, Huggy Bear,  I'm soooooo glad you brought up the Pam Reynolds case because after careful examination of the minute to minute medical report and comparing them to  the statements she has made, things don't add up.  The timeline she gives for her NDE and the medical report don't match. 


Anesthesiologist Gerald Woerlee analyzed the case and compared her statement to the medical report and found that  amount of time during which Reynolds "flatlined" is not correct and that her NDE occurred under general anesthesia when the brain was still active, hours before Reynolds underwent hypothermic cardiac arrest.   He also concluded that she was having the experience of "anesthesia awareness" which happens in 1 in 2000 cases. 
 
Quote: He draws attention to the fact that Reynolds could only give a report of her experience some time after she recovered from the anesthetic as she was still intubated when she regained consciousness. This would provide some opportunity for her to associate and elaborate upon the sensations she had experienced during the operation with her existing knowledge and expectations. The fact that she described the small pneumatic saw used in the operation also does not impress Woerlee. As he points out, the saw sounds like and, to some extent, looks like the pneumatic drills used by dentists.[2]

She claims she remembers some of the conversation even though she had medical ear plugs in her ears but they sometimes don't block out all sound even though she may have thought they did.  And here again, the surgeons did not have sensitive EEG electrodes placed all over her head to detect minute activity so they would not have known what minor activity may have been going on in her head. Go read the case of the epiliptic man who died while an EEG machine was attached to his head.  

I notice you don't read links that may conflict with your beliefs.  Typical.

  
 
(12-13-2023, 10:10 AM)Huggy Bear Wrote:         
Quote:The definition of death includes the word IRREVERSIBLE,

That's about the only true statement you've said in this entire thread.  Yes, death is irreversible but none of the people you think were dead were really dead. They were dying, yes.  But they were NOT dead.
 
Why is it that you guys can only point to Gerald Woerlee, one athiest ANESTHESIOLOGIST, who's goal is to debunk at all costs, not be objective. Everthing he states is pure conjecture, as he wasn't present. The Surgeon (who was present) stated himself that Pam's recollections were accurate and he had no explanation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_F._Spetzler
 
Quote:Prior to the operation proceeding, Reynolds was placed under general anesthesia, then had her eyes taped shut and a monitoring device placed in both of her ears. She was later induced into clinical death by Spetzler and his team, which was necessary for the operation to take place. Despite being clinically dead and under intense monitoring and medical observation whilst the procedure was ongoing, Reynolds claimed to have had a profound near-death experience in which she was able to accurately recall the sequence of events within the operating theater, the surgical instruments used, and the conversations that had taken place. In an interview that took place for a BBC documentary in 2002, Spetzler affirmed many of the observations that Pam had made and later admitted that he had no explanation for them.
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#79

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-13-2023, 07:20 PM)Jarsa Wrote: ...but I mean, how could someone blatantly lie in a published book?...</html>
If you came into possession of the city library (in just about any city I've lived in) you could build a house out of stacks of unique books that have blatant lies published in them.
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#80

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-13-2023, 07:20 PM)Jarsa Wrote:
(12-11-2023, 02:44 AM)mordant Wrote: I don't know the OP's motives or character and so will not make assumptions concerning them; but I will say that a lot of people look for reassurance from their peers when uncertain or confused; it's understandable because social support makes things easier. I think we have provided that so long as the OP wasn't fishing for a particular response that salvages something that appeals to them about NDEs or assuages some angst they have about just maybe the theists have some kind of point.

It would be nice if the OP would tell us if we have scratched the itch sufficiently, and if not, why not.

I get that NDEs are because of hallucinations, but that book I mentioned talks about cases where the victim had an out of body experience and saw something that later turned out to be accurate. I don't know if this is true, but I mean, how could someone blatantly lie in a published book?
ps Im an atheist, just something I wanted to clear up. Im not from a Christian background either.

Quote:I get that NDEs are because of hallucinations...

Excellent, you have it sussed! Or maybe not.

Quote:..but that book I mentioned talks about cases where the victim had an out of body experience.

What I don't get is why you persist on asking the same question after its been answered multiple times.
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#81

How do you explain NDEs?
So what I got from this is that NDEs are hallucinations and that the cases of people having miraculous NDEs are unexplainable because they leave out important details. I got it, thanks! btw this is NOT sarcasm, im serious
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#82

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-13-2023, 09:51 PM)Inkubus Wrote:
(12-13-2023, 07:20 PM)Jarsa Wrote: I get that NDEs are because of hallucinations, but that book I mentioned talks about cases where the victim had an out of body experience and saw something that later turned out to be accurate. I don't know if this is true, but I mean, how could someone blatantly lie in a published book?
ps Im an atheist, just something I wanted to clear up. Im not from a Christian background either.

Quote:I get that NDEs are because of hallucinations...

Excellent, you have it sussed! Or maybe not.

Quote:..but that book I mentioned talks about cases where the victim had an out of body experience.

What I don't get is why you persist on asking the same question after its been answered multiple times.
You cut my answer out of context. My question there was how their hallucinations could be accurate, but its been answered now.
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#83

How do you explain NDEs?
It was answered on page one.
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#84

How do you explain NDEs?
[quote="Huggy Bear" pid='412793' dateline='1702501229'[/quote]

[quote] Why is it that you guys can only point to Gerald Woerlee, one athiest ANESTHESIOLOGIST, who's goal is to debunk at all costs, not be objective. [/quote]

What theists do is confirm their magical beliefs any way they possibly can.   They start with the conclusion first and then look for anything that can fit the conclusion that they want confirmed.  This is not how science works.  Science does the opposite and the surgeon who said "he had no explanation" does NOT mean you get to run in with your god flag and plant it in a gap in knowledge. 




[quote]Everthing he states is pure conjecture, as he wasn't present.[/quote]

He read the medical report that broke down each procedure minute by minute and he is an experienced anesthesiologist.
 

[quote="Huggy Bear" pid='412793' dateline='1702501229']    "Despite being clinically dead and under intense monitoring and medical observation whilst the procedure was ongoing, Reynolds claimed to have had a profound near-death experience in which she was able to accurately recall the sequence of events within the operating theater, the surgical instruments used, and the conversations that had taken place."



Here again, you're skipping over this part.  The state of being "clinically dead" and actually BEING DEAD are two different things.  The EEG that just happened to be attached to the brain of the epileptic gentlemen I talked about above (see post #46)  who had a heart attack,  showed a lot of activity in the brain when he was in the throws of death.    

"New research is revealing what happens in the brain during our final moments of life. When scientists recorded the brainwaves of a dying man, he appeared to go through a sudden flash of memories seconds before and after his heart stopped beating. This first-of-its-kind study suggests we may experience a flood of memories when we die."

Did you read this part....WHEN WE DIE.......not after we die.   This happens during the dying process but Pam Reynolds did not die.  



"For roughly 30 seconds before and after the man's heart stopped beating, the scans showed increased acitivy in parts of the brain associated with memory recall, meditation, and dreaming. Different types of neural oscillations, also called brain waves, are involved in different brain functions. Researchers recorded both high-frequency gamma oscillations as well as slower-frequency theta, delta, alpha, and beta oscillations. Scientists say they were particularly intrigued by the presence of gamma waves, which suggest the man’s brain may have been replaying memories from throughout his life."

Pam Reynolds claims don't match up with reality.  Yes, you can hear with the earplugs clicking and you certainly can feel the vibration of the saw through the metal table.  Yes, 1 out of 2000 patients experience anesthesia awareness so they are aware of the sounds around them.     Pam Reynolds is a modern women who has seen operations on TV and movies so of course she's going to know a lot of general things about surgery.   Just watching the old TV show, MASH can give one a sense of the sights and sounds of an operation. She didn't come to that operation from the 8th century when nothing like this existed.  

Pam Reynolds never died.  She was in the throws of dying, but she never died.  When you aren't dead you don't come back from death.  


(I don't know what's happening to my quotes. They aren't working and I'm trying every sort of configuration.  It's weird)
                                                         T4618
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#85

How do you explain NDEs?
Quote:Pam Reynolds never died. 

Too bad.  It would shut up a lot of morons if she had.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#86

How do you explain NDEs?
Perhaps the "doctor" is lying huggster.

Maybe stop taking the idiot pills for a few days and see what happens.

What do you .........um...........think? (I know, I know, thinking is hard, and can lead to scary, scary truths, but that is how we grow.)







But seriously, stop taking the idiot pills.
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#87

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-14-2023, 10:22 AM)no one Wrote: Perhaps the "doctor" is lying huggster.

Maybe stop taking the idiot pills for a few days and see what happens.

What do you .........um...........think? (I know, I know, thinking is hard, and can lead to scary, scary truths, but that is how we grow.)







But seriously, stop taking the idiot pills.

See how easily you make an assertion based on absolutely zero evidence? 

"Perhaps the "doctor" is lying huggster."

Based on what?
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#88

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-14-2023, 05:49 PM)Huggy Bear Wrote: Perhaps the "doctor" is lying ... based on what?

Lying isn't the right word.  Mistaken.  Reaching a conclusion unwarranted by the available observed evidence.  Reaching a conclusion refuted by the available observed evidence.

Lying imputes motive; being mistaken doesn't need a motive.
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#89

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-13-2023, 10:13 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: What theists do is confirm their magical beliefs any way they possibly can.   They start with the conclusion first and then look for anything that can fit the conclusion that they want confirmed.  This is not how science works.  Science does the opposite and the surgeon who said "he had no explanation" does NOT mean you get to run in with your god flag and plant it in a gap in knowledge.

The only one offering explanations is YOU. I've made absolutely zero conclusions, all I've done was state the facts of the case. You on the other hand have filibustered about MRI and EKG machines, and how an anesthesiologist had it all figured out.

BTW you're the only one that brought God into it, having an OBE isn't proof of God, it just proves that consciousness can exist independently from the brain.
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#90

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-14-2023, 06:01 PM)airportkid Wrote:
(12-14-2023, 05:49 PM)Huggy Bear Wrote: Perhaps the "doctor" is lying ... based on what?

Lying isn't the right word.  Mistaken.  Reaching a conclusion unwarranted by the available observed evidence.  Reaching a conclusion refuted by the available observed evidence.

Lying imputes motive; being mistaken doesn't need a motive.

You can't just assert someone is mistaken with no basis, besides all he stated was that the patient had accurately recalled what happened during her procedure.

What was he mistaken about?
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#91

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-14-2023, 06:02 PM)Huggy Bear Wrote: an OBE  ...  proves that consciousness can exist independently from the brain ...

Not a lie.  Mistaken.  The available observed evidence proffers no such proof, and in many respects DISproves that conclusion.
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#92

How do you explain NDEs?
An OBE merely demonstrates that some humans are so fucking stupid that they will believe anything.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#93

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-14-2023, 06:02 PM)Huggy Bear Wrote: ...having an OBE isn't proof of God, it just proves that consciousness can exist independently from the brain.
That isn't how proofs works.
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#94

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-14-2023, 08:22 PM)rocinantexyz Wrote:
(12-14-2023, 06:02 PM)Huggy Bear Wrote: ...having an OBE isn't proof of God, it just proves that consciousness can exist independently from the brain.
That isn't how proofs works.

Because anecdote =/= evidence.
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#95

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-14-2023, 06:05 PM)Huggy Bear Wrote:
(12-14-2023, 06:01 PM)airportkid Wrote: Lying isn't the right word.  Mistaken.  Reaching a conclusion unwarranted by the available observed evidence.  Reaching a conclusion refuted by the available observed evidence.

Lying imputes motive; being mistaken doesn't need a motive.

You can't just assert someone is mistaken with no basis, besides all he stated was that the patient had accurately recalled what happened during her procedure.

What was he mistaken about?

He was mistaken about her being unable to hear what was going on. The earplugs don't completely block out the sound.  People like you dismiss  anesthesia awareness as a possibility (which happens in 1 in 2000 cases) because then you'd have to admit that maybe there were other causes for her awareness during the operation other than a magical afterlife. 

When one is near death EEG's record a surge of brain activity that indicate hallucinations but they generally don't use EEG's during brain operations because all the cords get in the way.   

No one has ever come back from complete death because there is  a difference between being "Clinically dead" and Biologically dead"  Clinically dead is reversable, biologically dead is not reversable.   Pam Reynolds and the others were clinically dead, not biologically dead.
                                                         T4618
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#96

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-14-2023, 06:02 PM)Huggy Bear Wrote: BTW you're the only one that brought God into it, having an OBE isn't proof of God, it just proves that consciousness can exist independently from the brain.

No, it does not. It could be that we possess clairvoyance and consciousness can't exist apart from the brain. All this shows is your bias. As if it was in doubt.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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#97

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-14-2023, 11:57 PM)Dānu Wrote:
(12-14-2023, 06:02 PM)Huggy Bear Wrote: BTW you're the only one that brought God into it, having an OBE isn't proof of God, it just proves that consciousness can exist independently from the brain.

No, it does not.  It could be that we possess clairvoyance and consciousness can't exist apart from the brain.  All this shows is your bias.  As if it was in doubt.

remaining concious while the brain is no longer functional literally does prove that consciousness isn't dependent on the brain.
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#98

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-15-2023, 05:28 AM)Huggy Bear Wrote: remaining concious while the brain is no longer functional literally does prove that consciousness isn't dependent on the brain.

Are there any examples of this actually happening that have been analyzed in a reputable peer-reviewed neuroscience journal?  Until otherwise demonstrated, if someone is conscious their brain is at least minimally functional.
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#99

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-13-2023, 11:18 AM)Huggy Bear Wrote:
(12-13-2023, 10:29 AM)Inkubus Wrote: No. It would be a fucking miracle.

I agree, but y'all atheist's wouldn't call it that, let's be honest.

Because it didn't actually happen as you think , maybe?
Two paths diverged in the woods, and I managed to take both...
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How do you explain NDEs?
(12-15-2023, 05:28 AM)Huggy Bear Wrote:
(12-14-2023, 11:57 PM)Dānu Wrote: No, it does not.  It could be that we possess clairvoyance and consciousness can't exist apart from the brain.  All this shows is your bias.  As if it was in doubt.

remaining concious while the brain is no longer functional literally does prove that consciousness isn't dependent on the brain.

The point is that you've got an argument from ignorance of the classic form, "You can't prove me wrong, therefore I'm right." You have some interesting questions but an inability to find naturalistic causes for those tidbits doesn't mean there aren't any. You are depending entirely too much on people's recollection and ignoring everything we know to be true about people. As I said, all this shows is your bias. A simple example. Reynolds wasn't interviewed until 4 hours after her surgery, during which time she could have been chattering away about what she experienced and receiving information and correction from others. She said the saw did this, someone tells her it went this other way. Eh voila! Suddenly she had knowledge that was accurate. Unfortunately for you, there is no mystery that she then has knowledge. Can you prove it didn't happen? No. That's because your proof appeals to our ignorance rather than any positive facts. The rest didn't happen while she was flatlined. And as I've pointed out to you in the past, she got some of her details, specifically the ones that you lean on most heavily, wrong. But you've ignored that inconvenient fact just like you shove aside any reasonable argument about her case or that of others because you're a true believer who won't be swayed by reason. As I said, all it shows is your bias.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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