Welcome to Atheist Discussion, a new community created by former members of The Thinking Atheist forum.

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
How do you explain NDEs?
#51

How do you explain NDEs?
[Image: 636104857259464370-men-who-stare-at-goat...=crophttp:]
Reply
#52

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-11-2023, 08:35 PM)Huggy Bear Wrote:
(12-11-2023, 08:11 PM)Dexta Wrote: That totally fails to address the meat of my question, Huggy. If you don't need eyes to see, why do we have blind people who can only walk (relatively) safely with the use of white canes, and can only read using brail?
Blind person literally seeing without eyes.

That's an awesome case study, no doubt, however it purely strengthens my argument - he's one in a million and - if you don't need eyes to see, why can't the blind see using consciousness alone, as in your post about the patient who claimed to have seen the operation taking place? The heroically stalwart man who learnt to "see" using echo-location only highlights the fact: you need eyes to see! Being conscious is not enough!
Reply
#53

How do you explain NDEs?
Watching apologists grope for answers when confronted with reality always reminds me of this passage.  Written to explain the silliness of them trying to explain away the failure of Ezekiel's Tyre prophecy, Ed Babinsky wrote:

Quote:Bible-believers are full of clever (and some not so clever) rationalizations. The crucial question, however, is not whether “answers” can be generated in response to Bible difficulties but whether credible answers can be produced. What is the best explanation? Bible-believers seem to think that any loophole, however improbable, that gets the Bible off the hook has solved the problem. Thus, it is not surprising that different, conflicting answers are often presented side by side. It never seems to occur to these people that such logic will also support the story of Goldilocks and the three bears! Or the Koran. Or, anything else. Once we abandon the probable in favor of the improbable—or even the less probable—we have abandoned objectivity. Without objectivity, there is not much hope of finding the truth; we only succeed in confirming our own prejudiced views—even as a group of flat-Earth folks in California did for years in their newsletters.

Huggy's groping reminded me of this....once again.


Carry on.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
The following 1 user Likes Minimalist's post:
  • pattylt
Reply
#54

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-11-2023, 08:35 PM)Huggy Bear Wrote:
(12-11-2023, 08:11 PM)Dexta Wrote: That totally fails to address the meat of my question, Huggy. If you don't need eyes to see, why do we have blind people who can only walk (relatively) safely with the use of white canes, and can only read using brail?
Blind person literally seeing without eyes.

What does this have to do with NDE's.   I've saw the video of this kid years ago.  So what that he uses echo location. So do bats.  The point is that the kid has developed a system in his brain that can detect sound location to figure out where things are.  The brain is very malliable and plastic. Blind people also have a heightened sense of smell and touch.  But you're forgetting one important thing, this person is not dead, nor is he near death.   

As for describing the operation:

Anyone living in the 21st century has seen movies, videos and medical programs showing what an operation looks and sounds like.  We know generally what  doctors do during an operation.  It should surprise no one that people can describe their own operation as though they're seeing it from a distance.

Find me someone who has no clue what a doctor is, what an operation is, what an operating room looks like, what a scalpel or suture is, what an operating table looks like, what a nurse is; someone who is completely clueless as to how an operation is performed, what the lighting fixtures above the table look like, what an anesthesiologist is or does; someone with no knowledge of modern medicine,  yet they can describe in detail the operation that was performed on them then you have someone using no confirmation bias.   But this is never the case.  Previous knowledge skews the whole hypothesis.

You seem to be blown away that the brain is put on ice, therefore I guess, you think the person is dead??  I don't know what you're thinking.   You need to respond to my previous post on EEGs.  

And here's more information on EEG's and the brain being put on ice.

https://academic.oup.com/icvts/article/3...98/6651844

Quote:Hypothermia remains an essential technique to protect the brain during cardiac surgical procedures which require circulatory arrest [1]. As core temperature decreases, cerebral metabolism is reduced, thereby offering a window of neuroprotection, with lower core temperatures targeted for more complex and extensive repairs that require prolonged arrest

Electroencephalography (EEG) records the summated postsynaptic potentials of neural tissue from electrodes placed on the scalp. This activity is classified as normal or abnormal based on its location, morphology and amplitude relative to the age of the patient. EEG can be used to detect seizures and signs of ischaemia and guide the depth of anaesthesia and hypothermia. In spite of its wide availability in clinical centres, perioperative EEG monitoring is not routinely used during cardiac surgery with hypothermic circulatory arrest (
.
                                                         T4618
The following 1 user Likes Dancefortwo's post:
  • Inkubus
Reply
#55

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-11-2023, 08:35 PM)Huggy Bear Wrote:
(12-11-2023, 08:11 PM)Dexta Wrote: That totally fails to address the meat of my question, Huggy. If you don't need eyes to see, why do we have blind people who can only walk (relatively) safely with the use of white canes, and can only read using brail?
Blind person literally seeing without eyes.

No dear, it's not 'vision' it's echolocation.
The following 3 users Like Inkubus's post:
  • pattylt, Dancefortwo, epronovost
Reply
#56

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-12-2023, 02:02 AM)Inkubus Wrote:
(12-11-2023, 08:35 PM)Huggy Bear Wrote: Blind person literally seeing without eyes.

No dear, it's not 'vision' it's echolocation.

I guess we're just going to pretend like that's not what I stated in the first place, but since you want to be so smuggly pedantic, too 'see' doesn't ONLY mean the use of litteral eyeballs, it also means to process or comprehend information.
Reply
#57

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-12-2023, 04:03 AM)Huggy Bear Wrote:
(12-12-2023, 02:02 AM)Inkubus Wrote: No dear, it's not 'vision' it's echolocation.

I guess we're just going to pretend like that's not what I stated in the first place, but since you want to be so smuggly pedantic, too 'see' doesn't ONLY mean the use of litteral eyeballs, it also means to process or comprehend information.

"Seeing" means vision through the eyeballs. If you don't have it, you don't have it. If you you want to discuss "situational comprehension" or something like that, just say so. I've gotten really tired of concepts like "differently-abled". If someone lacks a basic sensory input, they are "disabled" of that sensory input. Consider
Two paths diverged in the woods, and I managed to take both...
The following 2 users Like Cavebear's post:
  • Inkubus, pattylt
Reply
#58

How do you explain NDEs?
Put a 'U' infront and I can explain them very nicely.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
Reply
#59

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-12-2023, 04:03 AM)Huggy Bear Wrote:
(12-12-2023, 02:02 AM)Inkubus Wrote: No dear, it's not 'vision' it's echolocation.

I guess we're just going to pretend like that's not what I stated in the first place, but since you want to be so smuggly pedantic, too 'see' doesn't ONLY mean the use of litteral eyeballs, it also means to process or comprehend information.

Information acquired via sensorial organs like eyes, or in the case of these rare case of human echolocation, ears. These demonstrate quite reliably the all importance and physicality of the mind.
The following 4 users Like epronovost's post:
  • Dexta, Dancefortwo, pattylt, Cavebear
Reply
#60

How do you explain NDEs?
The eye is merely a light gathering mechanism.  The images are transmitted to the brain via the optic nerve where they are interpreted by, like almost everything else, THE BRAIN.

The brain controls.  Certainly not the fucking bible or the imaginary god who is isn't there.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
The following 3 users Like Minimalist's post:
  • Dancefortwo, pattylt, Cavebear
Reply
#61

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-12-2023, 04:03 AM)Huggy Bear Wrote:
(12-12-2023, 02:02 AM)Inkubus Wrote: No dear, it's not 'vision' it's echolocation.

I guess we're just going to pretend like that's not what I stated in the first place, but since you want to be so smuggly pedantic, too 'see' doesn't ONLY mean the use of litteral eyeballs, it also means to process or comprehend information.

No, you're placing echolocation in a magical place, per your posting of the young man who uses echolocation.   Blind people also have some visual dream yet they have never seen anything. 

Quote:  While people who have been blind since birth do indeed dream in visual images, they do it less often and less intensely than sighted people. Instead, they dream more often and more intensely in sounds, smells, and touch sensations

The problem you're having is that you think someone was dead and came back to life when they were not actually dead.  This way you can insert an afterlife into your equation.    But the example you've given does nothing of the kind.  The person was not dead and I've posted several reasons why he was not dead somewhere up the way. As I've said before, the process of dying and being dead are two different things.
                                                         T4618
The following 5 users Like Dancefortwo's post:
  • pattylt, Minimalist, brewerb, Inkubus, Cavebear
Reply
#62

How do you explain NDEs?
Huggy, you can believe anything you want, but if you're looking for validation from anyone here it should be apparent that you're.....

dead horse
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
The following 1 user Likes brewerb's post:
  • Cavebear
Reply
#63

How do you explain NDEs?
Huggy is a fool. A misogynistic, hateful, fool.
The following 1 user Likes no one's post:
  • Cavebear
Reply
#64

How do you explain NDEs?
How do I explain near death experience. As exactly that... near death experience.

Nobody to my knowledge has had an actual death experience and lived to tell the tale.
The following 1 user Likes SeaPigeon's post:
  • Cavebear
Reply
#65

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-12-2023, 04:47 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(12-12-2023, 04:03 AM)Huggy Bear Wrote: I guess we're just going to pretend like that's not what I stated in the first place, but since you want to be so smuggly pedantic, too 'see' doesn't ONLY mean the use of litteral eyeballs, it also means to process or comprehend information.

No, you're placing echolocation in a magical place, per your posting of the young man who uses echolocation.   Blind people also have some visual dream yet they have never seen anything. 

Quote:  While people who have been blind since birth do indeed dream in visual images, they do it less often and less intensely than sighted people. Instead, they dream more often and more intensely in sounds, smells, and touch sensations

The problem you're having is that you think someone was dead and came back to life when they were not actually dead.  This way you can insert an afterlife into your equation.    But the example you've given does nothing of the kind.  The person was not dead and I've posted several reasons why he was not dead somewhere up the way.  As I've said before, the process of dying and being dead are two different things.

Clinical death is defined as no breathing and no heartbeat, brain death is defined as no brain function. According to the brain surgeon (in the case of Pam Reynolds), their patient was experiencing all the above, why is it so hard for you to accept that a brain surgeon just may know what he's talking about?

The definition of death includes the word IRREVERSIBLE, so if a dead person was brought back to life after a year, it would still only classify as an NDE.
Reply
#66

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-13-2023, 10:10 AM)Huggy Bear Wrote: Clinical death is defined as no breathing and no heartbeat, brain death is defined as no brain function. According to the brain surgeon (in the case of Pam Reynolds), their patient was experiencing all the above, why is it so hard for you to accept that a brain surgeon just may know what he's talking about?

The definition of death includes the word IRREVERSIBLE, so if a dead person was brought back to life after a year, it would still only classify as an NDE.

No. It would be a fucking miracle.
The following 2 users Like Inkubus's post:
  • Dancefortwo, Cavebear
Reply
#67

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-13-2023, 10:29 AM)Inkubus Wrote:
(12-13-2023, 10:10 AM)Huggy Bear Wrote: Clinical death is defined as no breathing and no heartbeat, brain death is defined as no brain function. According to the brain surgeon (in the case of Pam Reynolds), their patient was experiencing all the above, why is it so hard for you to accept that a brain surgeon just may know what he's talking about?

The definition of death includes the word IRREVERSIBLE, so if a dead person was brought back to life after a year, it would still only classify as an NDE.

No. It would be a fucking miracle.

I agree, but y'all atheist's wouldn't call it that, let's be honest.
Reply
#68

How do you explain NDEs?
Because miracles don't exisit. Just like your stupid god, or the afterlife, asshat!
Reply
#69

How do you explain NDEs?
Great idea Huggy.  You've suggested a bar for the miraculous.  Get back to us when you find someone who was dead for a year and is now alive.  I wanna talk to that guy.
The following 1 user Likes Rhythmcs's post:
  • Inkubus
Reply
#70

How do you explain NDEs?
I've only just now remembered how spectacularly stupid Huggy is.
Reply
#71

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-13-2023, 10:10 AM)Huggy Bear Wrote:
(12-12-2023, 04:47 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: No, you're placing echolocation in a magical place, per your posting of the young man who uses echolocation.   Blind people also have some visual dream yet they have never seen anything. 


The problem you're having is that you think someone was dead and came back to life when they were not actually dead.  This way you can insert an afterlife into your equation.    But the example you've given does nothing of the kind.  The person was not dead and I've posted several reasons why he was not dead somewhere up the way.  As I've said before, the process of dying and being dead are two different things.

Clinical death is defined as no breathing and no heartbeat, brain death is defined as no brain function. According to the brain surgeon (in the case of Pam Reynolds), their patient was experiencing all the above, why is it so hard for you to accept that a brain surgeon just may know what he's talking about?

The definition of death includes the word IRREVERSIBLE, so if a dead person was brought back to life after a year, it would still only classify as an NDE.


OooOOOooo, Huggy Bear,  I'm soooooo glad you brought up the Pam Reynolds case because after careful examination of the minute to minute medical report and comparing them to  the statements she has made, things don't add up.  The timeline she gives for her NDE and the medical report don't match. 


Anesthesiologist Gerald Woerlee analyzed the case and compared her statement to the medical report and found that  amount of time during which Reynolds "flatlined" is not correct and that her NDE occurred under general anesthesia when the brain was still active, hours before Reynolds underwent hypothermic cardiac arrest.   He also concluded that she was having the experience of "anesthesia awareness" which happens in 1 in 2000 cases. 
 
Quote: He draws attention to the fact that Reynolds could only give a report of her experience some time after she recovered from the anesthetic as she was still intubated when she regained consciousness. This would provide some opportunity for her to associate and elaborate upon the sensations she had experienced during the operation with her existing knowledge and expectations. The fact that she described the small pneumatic saw used in the operation also does not impress Woerlee. As he points out, the saw sounds like and, to some extent, looks like the pneumatic drills used by dentists.[2]

She claims she remembers some of the conversation even though she had medical ear plugs in her ears but they sometimes don't block out all sound even though she may have thought they did.  And here again, the surgeons did not have sensitive EEG electrodes placed all over her head to detect minute activity so they would not have known what minor activity may have been going on in her head. Go read the case of the epiliptic man who died while an EEG machine was attached to his head.  

I notice you don't read links that may conflict with your beliefs.  Typical.

  
 [quote="Huggy Bear" pid='412764' dateline='1702462212']        
Quote:The definition of death includes the word IRREVERSIBLE,

That's about the only true statement you've said in this entire thread.  Yes, death is irreversible but none of the people you think were dead were really dead. They were dying, yes.  But they were NOT dead.
                                                         T4618
The following 1 user Likes Dancefortwo's post:
  • Inkubus
Reply
#72

How do you explain NDEs?
Huggy is slightly more honest than trump, just not a bright.
The following 1 user Likes no one's post:
  • Dancefortwo
Reply
#73

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-11-2023, 02:44 AM)mordant Wrote:
(12-11-2023, 01:40 AM)airportkid Wrote: The thread title beginning "How Do You Explain ..." comes across as if there IS an explanation, just not an explanation consonant with preserving awe and mystery, which is the aim of most who are associated with religious mysticism, conspiracy skulduggery, alien invasion, ghosts, demons and water dowsers.  Asking about it in that fashion these days with the internet right at one's fingertips to get good answers is a being more lazy than curious, I think.
I don't know the OP's motives or character and so will not make assumptions concerning them; but I will say that a lot of people look for reassurance from their peers when uncertain or confused; it's understandable because social support makes things easier. I think we have provided that so long as the OP wasn't fishing for a particular response that salvages something that appeals to them about NDEs or assuages some angst they have about just maybe the theists have some kind of point.

It would be nice if the OP would tell us if we have scratched the itch sufficiently, and if not, why not.

I get that NDEs are because of hallucinations, but that book I mentioned talks about cases where the victim had an out of body experience and saw something that later turned out to be accurate. I don't know if this is true, but I mean, how could someone blatantly lie in a published book?
ps Im an atheist, just something I wanted to clear up. Im not from a Christian background either.
</html>
Reply
#74

How do you explain NDEs?
That's about the only true statement you've said in this entire thread.  Yes, death is irreversible but none of the people you think were dead were really dead. They were dying, yes.  But they were NOT dead.

Plus the definition of dead changes over time. Maybe Jesus had a cardiac arrest and everyone thought he died, and then someone CPRed him.
Reply
#75

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-13-2023, 07:20 PM)Jarsa Wrote:
(12-11-2023, 02:44 AM)mordant Wrote: I don't know the OP's motives or character and so will not make assumptions concerning them; but I will say that a lot of people look for reassurance from their peers when uncertain or confused; it's understandable because social support makes things easier. I think we have provided that so long as the OP wasn't fishing for a particular response that salvages something that appeals to them about NDEs or assuages some angst they have about just maybe the theists have some kind of point.

It would be nice if the OP would tell us if we have scratched the itch sufficiently, and if not, why not.

I get that NDEs are because of hallucinations, but that book I mentioned talks about cases where the victim had an out of body experience and saw something that later turned out to be accurate. I don't know if this is true, but I mean, how could someone blatantly lie in a published book?
ps Im an atheist, just something I wanted to clear up. Im not from a Christian background either.
</html>

Lee Strobels book is full of unsubstantiated and wishful thinking claims.   As I wrote above, when looking into the details of NDE's and OBE's they don't stand up to scrutiny.  The Pam Reynolds case is a good example of this.  

There was also the case of a woman who claimed she had an OBE during a brain or heart operation (I can't remember which it was) and saw a shoe on the ledge of the hospital window and, whattaya know, there was indeed a shoe on the ledge of a hospital window.  Someone investigated this claim and found that she could see the ledge with the shoe on it from her hospital room!   The devil's in the detail when appoaching NDE's.
                                                         T4618
The following 4 users Like Dancefortwo's post:
  • Dānu, Jarsa, Inkubus, pattylt
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)