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How do you explain NDEs?
#26

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-09-2023, 01:46 PM)Inkubus Wrote:
(12-09-2023, 01:40 AM)Jarsa Wrote: No, I'm an atheist, and I don't want to believe. Just something that was bugging me. How could everyone be lying? And what about atheists who turned theists?

Wrong thread.

That's an interesting question. I wonder if people who have studied NDEs have thought to divide the theists from the atheists. Or examined the degree of "fear of death"?
Two paths diverged in the woods, and I managed to take both...
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#27

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-08-2023, 05:28 AM)Minimalist Wrote: We already beaten this dead horse to death.

https://atheistdiscussion.org/forums/sho...#pid398354

If denial and flat out rejection of peer reviewed research, articles from professors of medical schools, and the experiences of highly regarded surgeons is "beating a dead horse to death" then I guess.
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#28

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-10-2023, 11:39 AM)Huggy Bear Wrote:
(12-08-2023, 05:28 AM)Minimalist Wrote: We already beaten this dead horse to death.

https://atheistdiscussion.org/forums/sho...#pid398354

If denial and flat out rejection of peer reviewed research, articles from professors of medical schools, and the experiences of highly regarded surgeons is "beating a dead horse to death" then I guess.

No one is denying NDE's are a real phenomenon what we do question are the claims that NDE's are evidence for the afterlife. Do you have a link to this peer reviewed research?
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#29

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-10-2023, 11:39 AM)Huggy Bear Wrote: ... peer reviewed research, articles from professors of medical schools, and the experiences of highly regarded surgeons ...

None of it is credible, else the phenomenon would have well established, repeatable descriptions of its mechanisms of action.  Instead it remains as amorphous as astrology.

Publishing history in and of itself is not an indicator of credibility, nor are academic degrees or awards when the degrees and awards are in fields other than the study of NDEs.  High competence in one field does not mean similar competence in other fields.  The most skilled accomplished tennis player could also be totally hopeless at managing a business, or leading a chemistry research project.  Among our many human failings the assumption that high competence in something equates to universal high competence is one of our most crippling, and causes endless trouble in all walks of life.

But beyond that the field of NDEs proves itself worthless with its signal "tell":  all experiences reported match the physiological experience of the human apparatus - binocular vision that matches human field of view in the same range of visible light, hearing sound in an atmosphere so as to be able to distinguish speech from noise and understand speech, and sensing up from down.  Most of all, all accounts report recognition of people and things that require memory.

None of that is possible without the fully functional human body all the NDE veterans claim to have vacated.

In the movie "Ghost", Patrick Swayze as a ghost leans through the carriage walls of a passing train looking for someone, then jumps through the walls onto one of the carriages, and, landing on the floor of the carriage (instead of falling through the floor), sways with the inertia of accelerating to the train speed.  The effect was intended to make the jump seem "realistic" but it instead highlighted the absurdity of a ghost unaffected by physicality being affected by physicality.

Our experience as a human apparatus is so embedded we forget that it is an apparatus, with limitations that, surprise surprise, remain with the supposedly "freed" soul that has "escaped" its human conveyance.
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#30

How do you explain NDEs?
Brain anoxia is fun, just ask David Carradine.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#31

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-10-2023, 11:39 AM)Huggy Bear Wrote:
(12-08-2023, 05:28 AM)Minimalist Wrote: We already beaten this dead horse to death.

https://atheistdiscussion.org/forums/sho...#pid398354

If denial and flat out rejection of peer reviewed research, articles from professors of medical schools, and the experiences of highly regarded surgeons is "beating a dead horse to death" then I guess.

Once again, it is a NEAR death experience.    The person is NOT  dead.  They are HALLUCINATING.

When someone comes back to life after being clinically flat out dead (I'm talking dead, dead, dead) for a week or so and then tells us about an afterlife, you might have something there but otherwise it's a the brain in crisis having wild hallucinations.
                                                         T4618
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#32

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-10-2023, 11:39 AM)Huggy Bear Wrote:
(12-08-2023, 05:28 AM)Minimalist Wrote: We already beaten this dead horse to death.

https://atheistdiscussion.org/forums/sho...#pid398354

If denial and flat out rejection of peer reviewed research, articles from professors of medical schools, and the experiences of highly regarded surgeons is "beating a dead horse to death" then I guess.

Give the horse a break, Huggy.  It's dead.

I know you are a jesus freak and you do so want to believe but really....it's over.


https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10....46159/full


Quote:Neuroactive substances such as anesthetics and other drugs, epileptic seizures and brain stimulation and, especially, ischemic stress (hypoxia, anoxia) of the brain, all these modifications of brain functioning have been shown to generate subjective perceptions closely covering those of NDEs including OBEs. Therefore, neuro-functional models of NDE including OBE generation offer scientifically appropriate causal explanations for the occurrence of NDEs, possibly as hallucinations of a brain in ASCs. Such alterations are very likely expressions of physiological changes in a brain under ischemic stress as has been shown mainly after cardiac arrest in persons attested to be clinically dead. Neuro-functional NDE models may be used in further studies under well-controlled clinical/laboratory settings to gain more insight into NDE-specific questions such as the generation of specific NDE themes by local cortical activity, or which actual state of consciousness may allow NDE memory content to be saved. In general, the study of NDE models will contribute to the understanding of how brain activity can generate and represent subjective experiences at all. NDEs actually seem to be promising gates to the study of brain functions, especially in situations in which states of altered consciousness may be traced back to defined measures or sets of measures of brain activity.

You know, beating yourself over the head with a fucking bible can cause brain damage, too.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#33

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-10-2023, 03:57 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
(12-10-2023, 11:39 AM)Huggy Bear Wrote: If denial and flat out rejection of peer reviewed research, articles from professors of medical schools, and the experiences of highly regarded surgeons is "beating a dead horse to death" then I guess.

Give the horse a break, Huggy.  It's dead.

I know you are a jesus freak and you do so want to believe but really....it's over.


https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10....46159/full


Quote:Neuroactive substances such as anesthetics and other drugs, epileptic seizures and brain stimulation and, especially, ischemic stress (hypoxia, anoxia) of the brain, all these modifications of brain functioning have been shown to generate subjective perceptions closely covering those of NDEs including OBEs. Therefore, neuro-functional models of NDE including OBE generation offer scientifically appropriate causal explanations for the occurrence of NDEs, possibly as hallucinations of a brain in ASCs. Such alterations are very likely expressions of physiological changes in a brain under ischemic stress as has been shown mainly after cardiac arrest in persons attested to be clinically dead. Neuro-functional NDE models may be used in further studies under well-controlled clinical/laboratory settings to gain more insight into NDE-specific questions such as the generation of specific NDE themes by local cortical activity, or which actual state of consciousness may allow NDE memory content to be saved. In general, the study of NDE models will contribute to the understanding of how brain activity can generate and represent subjective experiences at all. NDEs actually seem to be promising gates to the study of brain functions, especially in situations in which states of altered consciousness may be traced back to defined measures or sets of measures of brain activity.

You know, beating yourself over the head with a fucking bible can cause brain damage, too.

One problem, the cases I've presented have the patient drained of blood, with zero brain activity, yet they REMEMBER events that occurred during this period of clinical death. your consciousness HAS to exist somewhere in order to recollect an experience. This implies the consciousness can exist independant from the brain.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/doc...C6FUIVUZQ/

Show ContentSpoiler:


Here's an article from your own source.
What if consciousness is not an emergent property of the brain? Observational and empirical challenges to materialistic models
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#34

How do you explain NDEs?
dead horse
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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#35

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-10-2023, 06:09 PM)Huggy Bear Wrote: One problem, the cases I've presented have the patient drained of blood, with zero brain activity, yet they REMEMBER events that occurred during this period of clinical death. your consciousness HAS to exist somewhere in order to recollect an experience. This implies the consciousness can exist independant from the brain.

Here's an article from your own source.
What if consciousness is not an emergent property of the brain? Observational and empirical challenges to materialistic models

Ah yes the usual suspect Dean Radin...

Quote:He’s been active in psi research for several decades and has published more than 200 papers related to parapsychology. Link
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#36

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-10-2023, 06:43 PM)Inkubus Wrote:
(12-10-2023, 06:09 PM)Huggy Bear Wrote: One problem, the cases I've presented have the patient drained of blood, with zero brain activity, yet they REMEMBER events that occurred during this period of clinical death. your consciousness HAS to exist somewhere in order to recollect an experience. This implies the consciousness can exist independant from the brain.

Here's an article from your own source.
What if consciousness is not an emergent property of the brain? Observational and empirical challenges to materialistic models

Ah yes the usual suspect Dean Radin...

Quote:He’s been active in psi research for several decades and has published more than 200 papers related to parapsychology. Link

Typical...

What does that have to do with the three other researchers?
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#37

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-10-2023, 06:09 PM)Huggy Bear Wrote:   One problem, the cases I've presented have the patient drained of blood, with zero brain activity, yet they REMEMBER events that occurred during this period of clinical death. your consciousness HAS to exist somewhere in order to recollect an experience. This implies the consciousness can exist independant from the brain.

What you don't understand is that the newer MRI machines, called functional MRI or fMRI, is different than the regular MRI's because it can detect minute brain activity that the machines they use during an operation cannot detect.


https://www.yalemedicine.org/conditions/...ing%20room.

Quote:  While an MRI scan allows doctors to examine a patient’s organs, tissue, or bones, “an fMRI looks at the function of the brain,” 

BUT, an fMRI is NOT used DURING an operation to detect tiny brain activity.  It is used BEFORE the operation to map the area of the brain that the surgeon is interested in.

Quote:  Typically, the scans are done 24 to 48 hours before a scheduled surgery. That way, surgeons have the most complete and accurate images just before the operation. fMRIs help neurosurgeons prepare for brain surgery, allowing them to successfully navigate to the correct region while they are in operating room. 

This is the machine that would detect any activity in the brain but it is far and away too large for the doctors to use during an operation. 

[Image: fmri-rg-810.jpg]

So your piece claims his brain was packed with ice and there was no brain activity but the machines the patient is hooked up to is not able to do the detecting job of a fMRI machine. 

 
(12-10-2023, 06:09 PM)Huggy Bear Wrote:  Everything he said was uncannily accurate.
 

So what!  Almost everyone has seen an operation either on a medical show, on TV  or in movies, so everyone knows basically what an heart or brain operation will look and sounnd like.  We know the beeps of the machines,  the tension of the surgeons, the lights and even the basic dialogue surgeons use.  It's not at all suprising that he later relayed  watching the operation and the repair on his heart.   And by the way, doctors stop hearts all the time during heart operations.  Did you think this was unusual?   The heart is stopped while the patient is connected to a heart-lung machine.  My own brother's heart was stopped while they fixed an aneurysm on his heart.  It happens in almost all heart surgeries.  I know this and I'm not even in the medical field.  Geesh! 


Then there's this:

Astronauts spinning in the centrifuge machines which spin them around have OBE's too.  After about 20 minutes of spinning the blood in the brain is being pulled away from the important areas of the brain and many experience a complete loss of consciousness and have OBE's.  They  see themselves from a distance.  Now, are these people dead?  No. 

[Image: giphy.gif]


Quote:  Fighter pilots can experience out of body feelings when they experience high G forces. During G-LOC, or gravity-induced loss of consciousness, a pilot might suddenly feel himself outside to be his airplane and be able to watch his body in the planes cockpit. Studying fighter pilots in simulated cockpits within giant centrifuges, researcher Dr. James Whinnery had 40 different pilots, including himself, report an out of body experience. After one test in the centrifuge, Dr. Whinnery reported feeling groggy and dislocated. He was able to see himself from behind as he walked down the hall from the test facility. 

Holy shit, you're so gullible.
                                                         T4618
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#38

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-10-2023, 06:09 PM)Huggy Bear Wrote: What if consciousness is not an emergent property of the brain? Observational and empirical challenges to materialistic models
I "discovered" when I was a child that if you hit someone in the head hard enough, their consciousness disappears; making it hard to take people seriously who suggest the brain and consciousness are independent.
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#39

How do you explain NDEs?
Quote:with zero brain activity,


Fellow church pals of yours, I presume!
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#40

How do you explain NDEs?
The thread title beginning "How Do You Explain ..." comes across as if there IS an explanation, just not an explanation consonant with preserving awe and mystery, which is the aim of most who are associated with religious mysticism, conspiracy skulduggery, alien invasion, ghosts, demons and water dowsers.  Asking about it in that fashion these days with the internet right at one's fingertips to get good answers is a being more lazy than curious, I think.
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#41

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-11-2023, 01:40 AM)airportkid Wrote: The thread title beginning "How Do You Explain ..." comes across as if there IS an explanation, just not an explanation consonant with preserving awe and mystery, which is the aim of most who are associated with religious mysticism, conspiracy skulduggery, alien invasion, ghosts, demons and water dowsers.  Asking about it in that fashion these days with the internet right at one's fingertips to get good answers is a being more lazy than curious, I think.
I don't know the OP's motives or character and so will not make assumptions concerning them; but I will say that a lot of people look for reassurance from their peers when uncertain or confused; it's understandable because social support makes things easier. I think we have provided that so long as the OP wasn't fishing for a particular response that salvages something that appeals to them about NDEs or assuages some angst they have about just maybe the theists have some kind of point.

It would be nice if the OP would tell us if we have scratched the itch sufficiently, and if not, why not.
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#42

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-10-2023, 08:59 PM)rocinantexyz Wrote:
(12-10-2023, 06:09 PM)Huggy Bear Wrote: What if consciousness is not an emergent property of the brain? Observational and empirical challenges to materialistic models
I "discovered" when I was a child that if you hit someone in the head hard enough, their consciousness disappears; making it hard to take people seriously who suggest the brain and consciousness are independent.

Cute, when I was a child I was having articles written about me in newspapers and magazines (see avatar), and had a project shown at an Apple presentation... but do you.
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#43

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-10-2023, 08:38 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(12-10-2023, 06:09 PM)Huggy Bear Wrote:   One problem, the cases I've presented have the patient drained of blood, with zero brain activity, yet they REMEMBER events that occurred during this period of clinical death. your consciousness HAS to exist somewhere in order to recollect an experience. This implies the consciousness can exist independant from the brain.

What you don't understand is that the newer MRI machines, called functional MRI or fMRI, is different than the regular MRI's because it can detect minute brain activity that the machines they use during an operation cannot detect.


https://www.yalemedicine.org/conditions/...ing%20room.

Quote:  While an MRI scan allows doctors to examine a patient’s organs, tissue, or bones, “an fMRI looks at the function of the brain,” 

BUT, an fMRI is NOT used DURING an operation to detect tiny brain activity.  It is used BEFORE the operation to map the area of the brain that the surgeon is interested in.

Quote:  Typically, the scans are done 24 to 48 hours before a scheduled surgery. That way, surgeons have the most complete and accurate images just before the operation. fMRIs help neurosurgeons prepare for brain surgery, allowing them to successfully navigate to the correct region while they are in operating room. 

This is the machine that would detect any activity in the brain but it is far and away too large for the doctors to use during an operation. 

[Image: fmri-rg-810.jpg]

So your piece claims his brain was packed with ice and there was no brain activity but the machines the patient is hooked up to is not able to do the detecting job of a fMRI machine. 

 
(12-10-2023, 06:09 PM)Huggy Bear Wrote:  Everything he said was uncannily accurate.
 

So what!  Almost everyone has seen an operation either on a medical show, on TV  or in movies, so everyone knows basically what an heart or brain operation will look and sounnd like.  We know the beeps of the machines,  the tension of the surgeons, the lights and even the basic dialogue surgeons use.  It's not at all suprising that he later relayed  watching the operation and the repair on his heart.   And by the way, doctors stop hearts all the time during heart operations.  Did you think this was unusual?   The heart is stopped while the patient is connected to a heart-lung machine.  My own brother's heart was stopped while they fixed an aneurysm on his heart.  It happens in almost all heart surgeries.  I know this and I'm not even in the medical field.  Geesh! 


Then there's this:

Astronauts spinning in the centrifuge machines which spin them around have OBE's too.  After about 20 minutes of spinning the blood in the brain is being pulled away from the important areas of the brain and many experience a complete loss of consciousness and have OBE's.  They  see themselves from a distance.  Now, are these people dead?  No. 

[Image: giphy.gif]


Quote:  Fighter pilots can experience out of body feelings when they experience high G forces. During G-LOC, or gravity-induced loss of consciousness, a pilot might suddenly feel himself outside to be his airplane and be able to watch his body in the planes cockpit. Studying fighter pilots in simulated cockpits within giant centrifuges, researcher Dr. James Whinnery had 40 different pilots, including himself, report an out of body experience. After one test in the centrifuge, Dr. Whinnery reported feeling groggy and dislocated. He was able to see himself from behind as he walked down the hall from the test facility. 

Holy shit, you're so gullible.

Don't need an MRI machine to tell you there is zero brain activity when there is literally no blood in the brain, or do you have some evidence that the brain can function without oxygen?
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#44

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-11-2023, 04:43 PM)Huggy Bear Wrote: Cute, when I was a child I was having articles written about me in newspapers and magazines (see avatar), and had a project shown at an Apple presentation... but do you.
When I was a child I was kidnapped, caged, tortured, and starved. Do I win the pissing contest now?
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#45

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-10-2023, 06:09 PM)Huggy Bear Wrote: "I was watching you guys in the operating room," he told me. "I was out of my body, floating around by the ceiling. I saw you just standing at the head of the table, I saw the surgeon sewing the patch on my artery, I saw that nurse . . ."

If consciousness can see things without the use of eyes, how do you explain the existence of blind people?
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#46

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-11-2023, 04:49 PM)Huggy Bear Wrote:  
Don't need an MRI machine to tell you there is zero brain activity when there is literally no blood in the brain, or do you have some evidence that the brain can function without oxygen?

Actually you need a EEG machine. There are machines that have found a flood of activity in the brain just before death even after the heart stopped and there was no blood pressure.  Modern machines have pushed the real moment of death further and further down the line.



https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-new...180979647/

[Image: eeg-601235088-5a524fdef1300a0037eeebe5.jpg]

Quote: New research is revealing what happens in the brain during our final moments of life. When scientists recorded the brainwaves of a dying man, he appeared to go through a sudden flash of memories seconds before and after his heart stopped beating. This first-of-its-kind study suggests we may experience a flood of memories when we die.

In the research published last week in Frontiers in Aging Neuroscience, doctors took brain scans of an 87-year-old Canadian patient with epilepsy. The team was performing a test that detects electrical activity in the brain, called an electroencephalogram (EEG), to learn more about what was happening during his seizures. 

 The elderly man had an unexpected heart attack and died during the procedure and, in accordance with the patient’s Do-Not-Resuscitate status, the doctors did not attempt any further treatment and the man soon passed away, reports Ed Cara for Gizmodo. 

Because the EEG machine kept running, doctors got a glimpse into the man’s brain activity at the end of his life. Such scans had never before been captured on a dying individual.

This is why it's so rare, because you can't plan this. No healthy human is going to go and have an EEG before they die, and in no sick patient are we going to know when they're going to die to record these signals," study author Ajmal Zemmar, a neurosurgeon at the University of Louisville in Kentucky, says to Insider’s Anna Medaris Miller. 

For roughly 30 seconds before and after the man's heart stopped beating, the scans showed increased acitivy in parts of the brain associated with memory recall, meditation, and dreaming. Different types of neural oscillations, also called brain waves, are involved in different brain functions. Researchers recorded both high-frequency gamma oscillations as well as slower-frequency theta, delta, alpha, and beta oscillations. Scientists say they were particularly intrigued by the presence of gamma waves, which suggest the man’s brain may have been replaying memories from throughout his life.

Through generating oscillations involved in memory retrieval, the brain may be playing a last recall of important life events just before we die, similar to the ones reported in near-death experiences,” Zemmar says in a news release. And the patient's brain activity didn’t immediately stop when he was declared dead. "Surprisingly, after the heart stops pumping blood into the brain, these oscillations keep going," he tells Insider. "So that was extremely surprising for us to see."

.....a 2013 study in rats  reported similar brain activity patterns before and after death, leading some to speculate that memory recall could be a universal experience of dying mammals.
  

The difference between the eplipetic patient is that he did die, the man you are describing did not die. Notice the underlined and bolded text "a dying individual" and "just before we die".   There's a difference between dying and dead.  

Now if you connect an EEG machine to a someone who has been dead for a week where an EEG records zero activity and then this person returns to the living you might have something there.  But as it is, the brain is flooded with activity before one dies but that does not mean they are dead.  Dying and dead...two different things.
                                                         T4618
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#47

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-11-2023, 06:25 PM)Dexta Wrote:
(12-10-2023, 06:09 PM)Huggy Bear Wrote: "I was watching you guys in the operating room," he told me. "I was out of my body, floating around by the ceiling. I saw you just standing at the head of the table, I saw the surgeon sewing the patch on my artery, I saw that nurse . . ."

If consciousness can see things without the use of eyes, how do you explain the existence of blind people?

Woohoo! A post like from airport kid...I thought it was a neat point #aFewBeersIn
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#48

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-11-2023, 06:25 PM)Dexta Wrote:
(12-10-2023, 06:09 PM)Huggy Bear Wrote: "I was watching you guys in the operating room," he told me. "I was out of my body, floating around by the ceiling. I saw you just standing at the head of the table, I saw the surgeon sewing the patch on my artery, I saw that nurse . . ."

If consciousness can see things without the use of eyes, how do you explain the existence of blind people?

There are blind people capable of using echolocation, but more to your point, there was a CIA program declassified in the 90's that utilized a technique called 'remote viewing' to basically spy on distant objects, the Army had a whole clandestine unit called project stargate which had remote viewers, for some reason they seemed to think it was possible to "see things without eyes".

https://ciaotest.cc.columbia.edu/olj/sa/...srm01.html

Quote:Introduction

During the Cold War years, the USA and Soviet Union are known to have been spying on each other using the services of psychic ‘remote viewers’, with the specific objective of gathering intelligence information of military significance. In simple terms ‘remote viewing’ is ‘the ability of human participants to acquire information about spatially (and temporally) remote geographical targets otherwise inaccessible by any known sensory means’.

There were two complementary components to the US Remote Viewing programme:

(a) A research programme on ‘Anomalous Cognition (AC)’ directed initially by physicists Hal Putoff and Russell Targ at the laboratories of Stanford Research International (SRI) at Menlo Park, California which was shifted in 1988 to Science Applications International Corporation (SAIC), under the direction of Edwin May. The findings of their early studies have been reported in prestigious scientific journals during the 1970s. 1-3

(b) Mission-oriented operational assignments overseen by various intelligence agencies of the US Government, code-named Project STARGATE.

Information regarding this top-secret programme was partly declassified by the CIA in July 1995 following the thaw in the Cold War. Since then, several research articles 4 and many books 5-10 have been published by some of the persons who were closely associated with this programme. These authors have however expressed regret that they had not been permitted to reveal much of the ‘sensitive’ details of the programme. The present brief account is based on the published sources of information.
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#49

How do you explain NDEs?
That totally fails to address the meat of my question, Huggy. If you don't need eyes to see, why do we have blind people who can only walk (relatively) safely with the use of white canes, and can only read using brail?
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#50

How do you explain NDEs?
(12-11-2023, 08:11 PM)Dexta Wrote: That totally fails to address the meat of my question, Huggy. If you don't need eyes to see, why do we have blind people who can only walk (relatively) safely with the use of white canes, and can only read using brail?
Blind person literally seeing without eyes.
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