Gospel Dating & Reliability

[Cavebear]

Too bad Stevie won't see these.....unless someone quotes it.  


https://sites.google.com/site/errorsinth...iled-proph

Let’s face it, if the Bible were true it would not contain any failed prophecies, yet it does. Before we explore these failed prophecies let’s discuss the so-called fulfilled prophecies. Most of the prophecies from the Old Testament, like those fulfilled by Jesus, are only “fulfilled” within the stories of the New Testament.
In light of the Bible being a work of fiction this is no big deal, the writers of the New Testament simply wrote stories involving characters who fulfilled the prophecies made in the Old Testament stories. As for the prophecies that are claimed to have been fulfilled by actual real life events they are vague prophecies that could easily be applied to any number of events. There are cases where the Bible makes very specific prophecies but to no surprise these are the ones that have failed:
Isaiah 17:1 “An oracle concerning Damascus: See, Damascus will no longer be a city but will become a heap of ruins.”
FAIL: Damascus is still inhabited today with well over a million people and there was never a time where it ceased to be a city. It is widely known as being the oldest continuously inhabited city in the world.
Isaiah 19:4-5 “I will hand the Egyptians over to the power of a cruel master, and a fierce king will rule over them, declares the Lord, the LORD Almighty. The waters of the river will dry up, and the riverbed will be parched and dry.”
FAIL: The river mentioned here is the Nile which never dried up and is still one of Egypt’s greatest natural resource.
Isaiah 52:1 “Awake, awake, O Zion, clothe yourself with strength. Put on your garments of splendor, O Jerusalem, the holy city. The uncircumcised and defiled will not enter you again.”
FAIL: There are still uncircumcised people living in Jerusalem even today.
Ezekiel 30:10-11 “This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will put an end to the hordes of Egypt by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his army – the most ruthless of nations – will be brought in to destroy the land. They will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain.”
FAIL: Ezekiel predicts that Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon will conquer Egypt utterly destroying it, slaying and scattering its people. In 568 BCE Nebuchadnezzar tried to conquer Egypt and Egypt survived with no apparent damage. Aahmes ruled for another generation over a prosperous Egypt and lived to see Nebuchadnezzar die. The Egyptians were not scattered or dispersed.
Ezekiel 29:10-11 “therefore I am against you and against your streams, and I will make the land of Egypt a ruin and a desolate waste from Migdol to Aswan, as far as the border of Cush. The foot of neither man nor beast will pass through it; no one will live there for forty years.”
FAIL: Never in its long history has Egypt been uninhabited for forty years.
Matthew 16:28 “I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” 23:36 “I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.” 24:34 “I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.”
FAIL: Jesus states in Matthew that all the signs marking the end of the world would be fulfilled before his generation ended, before the people that were standing infront of him “taste death.” Those people have been dead for over 2000 years and the world did not come to an end, neither have all those signs been fulfilled.

This god moron is a real fuck up.

As described in most religious texts, modern gods are not much better than the ancient ones. Fits of anger, retribution, apologies, promises that can't be supported by experience, and contradictions.

"But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 5:28-30)"

[Cavebear]

Why are there so many gods born on December 25th?  It seriously beats the odds.  A list:

Horus, Osiris, Attis, Mithra, Heracles, Dionysus, Tammuz, Adonis, Jesus (and there may be many more I can't bring to mind)...

You know any other so specific birthdates of any other gods?   Every ancient deity that I know of has either no birthdate or basically right after the Winter Solstice when specified.

And that seems to be a cause.  When any religion wanted to assign a diety a birthdate, they thought of the few days after the Winter Solstice when days were getting brighter again.  When life would go to Spring again slowly.  But it also seems that most cultures that defined a primary deity to be born close to December 25th (adjusting for calendars)  were trying to overcome some conquered culture's own deity.  Naturally, always born right after the Solstice.  

Why do you suppose that happens?

[Deesse23]

Why does everyone clip off the actual definition I provided? It answer all these questions. It focuses in on showing when a person (P) intentionally (I) brings about a result ® is what we mean by free will. That is all that is needed. What external constraint may exist on you choices is irrelevant because there are always and forever going to be constraints on your choices (the nature or reality).  

Unfortunately YOU are the one claiming that someONE put all those constraints called "nature" or "reality" in mans way.

You seem to (mabe intentionally, because you want reality match your beliefs, and not vice versa ) muddle the waters between free will and the execution thereof.

But still this does not adress your childish inability to concede that omnicience, prophecy, predetermination, etc. ist not compatible, at all, with free will, neither the thought process nor putting it into practice. This current "discussion" is just another smokescreen to deflect from these simple facts.

[Minimalist]

Why are there so many gods born on December 25th?  It seriously beats the odds.  A list:

Because after the Winter Solstice the days begin to get longer and to primitive agricultural cultures that was a sign of Spring and the rebirth of life.  The Romans originally celebrated the Saturnalia on December 17-23 but by the time pope Julius I (336 CE) got around to absorbing the holiday into jesusism there had been some calendar tinkering and December 25th was chosen as being closer to the actual calendar event of the solstice.  Like everything else in jesusism it is just horseshit.

[Dancefortwo]

Too bad Stevie won't see these.....unless someone quotes it.  


https://sites.google.com/site/errorsinth...iled-proph

Let’s face it, if the Bible were true it would not contain any failed prophecies, yet it does. Before we explore these failed prophecies let’s discuss the so-called fulfilled prophecies. Most of the prophecies from the Old Testament, like those fulfilled by Jesus, are only “fulfilled” within the stories of the New Testament.
In light of the Bible being a work of fiction this is no big deal, the writers of the New Testament simply wrote stories involving characters who fulfilled the prophecies made in the Old Testament stories. As for the prophecies that are claimed to have been fulfilled by actual real life events they are vague prophecies that could easily be applied to any number of events. There are cases where the Bible makes very specific prophecies but to no surprise these are the ones that have failed:
Isaiah 17:1 “An oracle concerning Damascus: See, Damascus will no longer be a city but will become a heap of ruins.”
FAIL: Damascus is still inhabited today with well over a million people and there was never a time where it ceased to be a city. It is widely known as being the oldest continuously inhabited city in the world.
Isaiah 19:4-5 “I will hand the Egyptians over to the power of a cruel master, and a fierce king will rule over them, declares the Lord, the LORD Almighty. The waters of the river will dry up, and the riverbed will be parched and dry.”
FAIL: The river mentioned here is the Nile which never dried up and is still one of Egypt’s greatest natural resource.
Isaiah 52:1 “Awake, awake, O Zion, clothe yourself with strength. Put on your garments of splendor, O Jerusalem, the holy city. The uncircumcised and defiled will not enter you again.”
FAIL: There are still uncircumcised people living in Jerusalem even today.
Ezekiel 30:10-11 “This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will put an end to the hordes of Egypt by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his army – the most ruthless of nations – will be brought in to destroy the land. They will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain.”
FAIL: Ezekiel predicts that Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon will conquer Egypt utterly destroying it, slaying and scattering its people. In 568 BCE Nebuchadnezzar tried to conquer Egypt and Egypt survived with no apparent damage. Aahmes ruled for another generation over a prosperous Egypt and lived to see Nebuchadnezzar die. The Egyptians were not scattered or dispersed.
Ezekiel 29:10-11 “therefore I am against you and against your streams, and I will make the land of Egypt a ruin and a desolate waste from Migdol to Aswan, as far as the border of Cush. The foot of neither man nor beast will pass through it; no one will live there for forty years.”
FAIL: Never in its long history has Egypt been uninhabited for forty years.
Matthew 16:28 “I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” 23:36 “I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.” 24:34 “I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.”
FAIL: Jesus states in Matthew that all the signs marking the end of the world would be fulfilled before his generation ended, before the people that were standing infront of him “taste death.” Those people have been dead for over 2000 years and the world did not come to an end, neither have all those signs been fulfilled.

This god moron is a real fuck up.

Yes he is, Min.

 As for the prophecies that are claimed to have been fulfilled by actual real life events they are vague prophecies that could easily be applied to any number of events.

The messiah was supposed to bring world peace.   Pfffft.  Jesus couldn't even bring peace to Israel much less the world.     




Prophecies are all about how one interprets the text and mentally bends the words to mean what you want them to mean. I could read The Odyssey and find  prophecies that pertain to my life today if I interpreted it with a particular confirmation bias.  Hell, that's how the Oracle at Delphi prophecies worked.   

So Steve is between a rock and a hard place here if he believes free will and prophecy exist together.  In a world where an omniscient god determines prophecies, every choice, however minute it may be, is limited to what this god foresees will happen.  All choices MUST lead to the conclusion this god has set up.  Free will cannot be added throughout god's pre-determined recipe because then you could end up with barbecued lobster instead of the loaf of bread god wanted.

[Minimalist]

The jews have always had delusions of grandeur ever since they started cobbling together this "chosen people" shit and writing it in their fucking bible.  For a group which never attained much for itself they definitely fell hook, line, and sinker for a load of crap.

I wonder when this yahweh clown is going to give them those jewish space lasers?

[Rhythmcs]

Unfortunately YOU are the one claiming that someONE put all those constraints called "nature" or "reality" in mans way.

To a libertarian vision of free will they're bad facts regardless of whether they're contingent facts or brute facts.  Whether things were established that way or things simply are that way.  It's their existence itself that poses an issue for free will, not whodunit.  This is an issue for christianity only if or when it wants to make or relies upon comments from both mutually exclusive sets of content.

In the wider view, it's pretty weird that christians have been melting down over this issue since it's inception - to the point of straight up murdering each other.  God, presumably, is fine with being responsible for whatever the hell it's doing.  If it planned all this out or if, when the need or want arises, it can override our own local will....then it's hard to see how that would be a problem for god.  Like he's up there with mascara running down his face just all broken up about what we made him do?

In either case god would know..even if gods followers could not accept..that we were absolutely not free in the way that has become so important to us...and it doesn't lose a single bit of sleep over it.

[pattylt]

The jews have always had delusions of grandeur ever since they started cobbling together this "chosen people" shit and writing it in their fucking bible.  For a group which never attained much for itself they definitely fell hook, line, and sinker for a load of crap.

I wonder when this yahweh clown is going to give them those jewish space lasers?

Shhhhh…we already have them….

[Minimalist]

I always found this comment amusing.

78. Again, if God, like Jupiter in the comedy, should, on awaking from a lengthened slumber, desire to rescue the human race from evil, why did He send this Spirit of which you speak into one corner (of the earth)? He ought to have breathed it alike into many bodies, and have sent them out into all the world. Now the comic poet, to cause laughter in the theatre, wrote that Jupiter, after awakening, despatched Mercury to the Athenians and Lacedaemonians; but do not you think that you have made the Son of God more ridiculous in sending Him to the Jews?

Celsus, c 180 CE

Recall that when Celsus was writing this had happened 50 years earlier.

"You are fond of saying that in the old days this same most high god made these and greater promises to those who gave heed to his commandments and worshipped him. But at the risk of appearing unkind, I ask how much good has been done by those promises have done either the Jews before you or you in your present circumstances. And would you have us put our faith in such a god? Instead of being masters of the whole world, the jews today have no home of any kind."

Celsus  "On The True Doctrine"  

One functioning space laser could have solved all these problems but....alas.....

[airportkid]

Perpetual Motion was long ago proven impossible, but throughout history right to the present day it is still sought by erstwhile, earnest tinkerers, none of whom will ever be remembered for their efforts.  The endless search concretes a neat irony:  Perpetual Motion itself is impossible, but seeking it IS a perpetual endeavor, a kind of perpetual motion that really will continue to the end of time, or human sentience.

I bring this up because the efforts of SteveII and all the other theists to prove supernaturality and gods are essentially the same thing:  chasing a hopeless impossibility, and what's sad about it is the waste of intellectual energy that leaves no legacy.  History will not remember the authors or their millions of words spent trying to prove what cannot be proved, mostly because nothing they say is original, or furnishes fresh insight.

SteveII (and a few others) are clearly intelligent, with (presumably) successful lives in terms of career, family, economic stature, and social stature.  But because they're investing their energy into a dead end they'll be encumbered with a sense of frustration, and won't make any meaningful contribution to the advance of human knowledge.  Their intellectual power is dissipated as no more than heat waste, and they'll be forgotten just as the legions of misguided thinkers that preceded them are.

And that's too bad.