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A Cumulative Case for Christianity
#1

A Cumulative Case for Christianity
PURPOSE:
I started with versions of this years ago in this forum—motivated by the reoccurring trajectory of individual discussions, inevitably spiraling towards contentions that Christianity is irrational, has no evidence, reducible to mere 'faith,' or attributed to conspiratorial schemes. Amidst such discussions, it is almost impossible to articulate the intricate web of ideas—comprising hundreds of beliefs and their multifaceted justifications. This presentation strives to bridge that gap by showing the cumulative nature of belief within Christianity, aiming to facilitate a more comprehensive understanding and more nuanced conversations.

There is a difference between having rational reasoning to support a worldview and what it means personally to assent to and live out specific beliefs themselves. At its core, Christianity is about an individual response, a personal restoration, and way to live an individual life. It's this message that remains compelling generation after generation and not the logical arguments presented below.

THE FORM
Inductive reasoning, distinct from deductive or abductive reasoning, constitutes a mode of reasoning wherein premises provide supporting evidence for the plausibility of a conclusion. While deduction arguments yield certain conclusions, inductive arguments offer conclusions that are likely, grounded in the evidence presented.

Premise 1: Instances of Miraculous Effects Attributed to God
Numerous instances in the New Testament attribute miraculous occurrences to a supernatural entity, specifically God. Consider the example of the paralytic healed by Jesus as recounted in Mark 2:10-12, where Jesus not only forgives sins (to which the attendees objected that he had the power to do)but also heals the man's paralysis in full view of others--to specifically illustrate the point that he had power to forgive sins. This and many other accounts underscore the presence of supernatural causation within specific contexts, enhancing the significance of the miracles described.

Premise 2: Resurrected Jesus Witnessed by Many
The resurrection of Jesus is attested to by the eyewitness accounts of as many as 500 individuals. This occurrence, whereby a recently crucified individual claims to have conquered death and paved the way for human redemption, inherently embodies a significant and evident supernatural claim. This claim is reinforced by:
  a. External sources confirming Jesus' birth, baptism, and death within the claimed timeframe.
  b. Firsthand eyewitnesses Peter, James, and John, who were deeply involved in both public and private events during Jesus' three-year ministry.
  c. These three had subsequent leadership roles in the early church, as documented by Paul, Acts, and early-century records.
  d. The early church's influence on Paul's teachings (from Paul, Acts)
  e. Paul's letters reflecting beliefs outlined in the gospels prior to their actual written accounts. We can infer from this, the source of these beliefs contained a critical mass of people who believed these events really happened which actually prompted immediate and significant action on their part--to evangelize the Roman world.  
  f. Letters authored by Peter, James, and John (eyewitnesses) that catalog the gospel themes.
  g. Luke's meticulous recording of Christ's life and the early church's journey in Luke and Acts.
  h. Editors of Matthew, Mark, and John, though potentially not eyewitnesses themselves, were contemporaries of everyone mentioned here.
  i. Recipients of the gospels would have been familiar with the editors, with the naming of each book denoting the apostolic influence.
  j. Textual criticism indicating lost documents sharing similar themes.
  k. Acceptance of the gospels by the early church, devoid of any questioning in their writings.
  l. The alignment between the gospels and Paul's teachings, given his direct interactions with eyewitnesses.
  m. The inadequacy of alternative theories concerning the origins of the New Testament and early church, in light of comprehensive evidence.

Premise 3: Central Promise of the New Testament
Establishing the veracity and historicity of the message is one thing. The message is another thing entirely. At the core of the New Testament lies a promise of profound transformation, encompassing spiritual healing, renewal, and a specific relationship with God.

Premise 4: Multitudes Report the Stated Effects
Millions upon millions of individuals have reported experiencing specific supernatural effects of a changed life, renewal, spiritual healing, and feelings of the presence of God while attributing the changes to his promises of the process outlined in the New Testament (P3).

Premise 5: Reports of Minor Miracles
Countless diverse accounts are continually recorded, detailing 'minor miracles' with narrow, person-centered aims (distinct from the broad applications of NT miracles). These minor miracles encompass healing, orchestrated events, profound encounters, opened pathways, augmented strength, tranquility, perseverance, and evangelistic success. These 'minor miracles' are promised in the New Testament and are evidence of God keeping very specific promises.

Premise 6: Unresolved Question of Existence
The fundamental query regarding the existence of anything lacks a naturalistic explanation, and such an explanation is unlikely to emerge, as elucidated in a number of Ontological Arguments.

Premise 7: Necessity of a First Cause
The metaphysical necessity of a primordial cause to make sense of our physical realm mirrors properties akin to the concept of God, as articulated in several versions of Cosmological Arguments.

Premise 8: Precise Parameters of Our Universe
The absence of a naturalistic rationale for the tightly confined range of physical constants essential for matter formation and energy preservation is evident, echoing the principles of Teleological Arguments.

Premise 9: Nature of Human Minds
The apparent non-physical nature of human minds, coupled with their causal influence over the physical domain, undermines the tenets of hard naturalism. This aligns, to some extent, with the notion of the supernatural, as highlighted in the Argument from Consciousness.

Premise 10: Innate Moral Knowledge
The pervasive presence of basic morality in humanity, rooted in perceived objective principles (moral Platonism), defies derivation from an evolutionary process. This notion is expounded in the Moral Argument.

Conclusion 1: Physical Evidence for God's Existence; Exclusively Christian
Evidence from the New Testament accounts, eyewitness testimonies, and the extant documents from the first and second centuries substantiates the existence of the Christian conception of God (from P1, P2).

Conclusion 2: Unbroken Chain of Personal Evidence
Continual and ever expanding accounts of personal narratives attests to the presence of God at work in individual lives (from P4, P5).

Conclusion 3: Inadequacy of Naturalism
Naturalism as a comprehensive worldview is metaphysically, scientifically, and morally insufficient and the theistic worldview much more likely, underscored by the collective arguments spanning ontological, cosmological, teleological, conscious, and moral perspectives (from P6, P7, P8, P9, P10).

A CUMULATIVE, RATIONAL CASE:
The culmination of these cumulative arguments markedly enhances the plausibility of the assertion that Christianity holds truth—affirming the existence of God and the authenticity of the New Testament. Woven together are historical narratives, intimate personal experiences, profound metaphysical contemplations, and rigorous philosophical insights.  While each premise (itself an argument) stands as an individual pieces of evidence, they collectively form a compelling inductive argument that leans toward a conclusion: that God's existence and the truth of Christianity extend beyond mere probability to a realm of strong likelihood. The process of ten separate arguments and the conclusions reached in this are, by very definition, rational beliefs.

The points above reflect centuries upon centuries of intellectual engagement and analysis. A vast library of texts spanning myriad disciplines has delved into these very topics, underscoring the depth of thought and inquiry they have engendered over time. Present-day objections, while relevant and valuable, echo age-old concerns that have long been subjected to critical scrutiny. In essence, this discourse stands as a testament to the enduring nature of these discussions and the collective endeavor to explore the profound questions they pose--a very rational process.

NOTE 1: What Place Does Faith Have?
Faith is not a way of knowing something. Faith is a way of trusting something. Christian faith is component of a relationship with God, characterized by trust, surrender, and a genuine connection of the heart. It involves believing in God's promises and relying on His character, goodness, and sovereignty. Faith is not a substitute for reasoning, but a recognition that there are aspects of the divine that transcend human comprehension. It is a journey of the heart, marked by a willingness to embrace the mysteries of the spiritual realm and to live in alignment with God's will. Faith is trusting in that which you have some reason(s) to believe is true. It does not preclude that once you have come to believe that something is true, using reliable epistemological means, you can become more certain something is true.

NOTE 2: Definition of Evidence
Any sort of positive epistemic considerations in favor of object O. "Evidence, broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion. This support may be strong or weak. The strongest type of evidence is that which provides direct proof of the truth of an assertion. At the other extreme is evidence that is merely consistent with an assertion but does not rule out other, contradictory assertions, as in circumstantial evidence." (wikipedia)
Types of Evidence:
Digital evidence
Personal experience
Scientific evidence
Testimonial
Physical evidence
Trace evidence
Relationship evidence

NOTE 3: Relationship between Evidence and Proof
Evidence refers to pieces of information or facts that help us establish the truth of something. Proof is a conclusion about the truth of something after analyzing the evidence. Evidence is suggestive of a conclusion. Proof is concrete and conclusive.

NOTE 4: Definition of a Miracle
A miracle is an event within the natural world that originates from a supernatural cause, lying beyond the confines of the physical realm. Unlike a suspension of natural laws, a miracle involves introducing an external cause into the natural order. The distinction between a supernatural cause and a natural one lies in the properties of the efficient cause. Natural efficient causes possess traits like physicality, adherence to the laws of physics, observability, and repeatability. Conversely, supernatural efficient causes possess attributes such as non-physicality, exemption from the laws of physics, and the potency to influence the natural world. It is important to differentiate between what is naturally impossible and what is logically impossible.

NOTE 5: On Bayesian Probabilities
There are multiple lines of evidence/reasoning that infer the supernatural exists and that Christianity is the most evidenced of religions.  Bayes showed us that that more data points that you have that infer a conclusion, the higher the probability the conclusion is true. For example, you don't just weigh the probability of the miraculous event against the witness reliability, but you weigh that probability given the background information against the probability of the event happening without the background information.  Here is an example of the process:

1. Prior Probability: Begin with an initial belief or prior probability about the likelihood of miracles based on your personal beliefs, religious teachings, and cultural background.
2. Evidence: Consider any relevant evidence, such as historical accounts, eyewitness testimonies, and expert opinions, that relate to the specific miracle in question.
3. Likelihood: Evaluate the likelihood of observing the evidence if the miracle did occur versus if it did not occur. This involves assessing how well the evidence aligns with each hypothesis.
4. Bayes' Theorem: Use Bayes' theorem to update your belief in light of the new evidence. The theorem mathematically combines your prior probability, the likelihood of the evidence, and the likelihood of the evidence under alternative hypotheses.
5. Posterior Probability: The result of applying Bayes' theorem is a posterior probability, which represents your updated belief in the likelihood of the miracle occurring, given the new evidence.

NOTE 6: Extraordinary Claims require Extraordinary Evidence
The assertion that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" carries an intuitive appeal, yet it lacks a solid foundation when examined closely. Firstly, the term "extraordinary" hinges on individual perspective, influenced by one's knowledge and beliefs. In an extreme scenario where one possesses no prior understanding, everything might appear extraordinary. Secondly, probability theory offers a method to assess the likelihood of a miracle's occurrence (see NOTE 5), thus allowing for a more nuanced evaluation. Thirdly, while there's justification to lean towards naturalistic explanations when all factors are equal, we cannot demand exclusive adherence to this principle (which would be circular reasoning). It's crucial to recognize that evidence, regardless of the claim's nature, adheres to a singular standard—plain evidence.
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#2

A Cumulative Case for Christianity
Number 6 is an argument from ignorance. The main problem is that even if we accepted that there aren't better explanations for these things, which there are, none of these things necessarily require a god.
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#3

A Cumulative Case for Christianity
(08-22-2023, 01:33 PM)SteveII Wrote: THE FORM
Inductive reasoning, distinct from deductive or abductive reasoning, constitutes a mode of reasoning wherein premises provide supporting evidence for the plausibility of a conclusion. While deduction arguments yield certain conclusions, inductive arguments offer conclusions that are likely, grounded in the evidence presented.

A thousand pieces of junk evidence don't make one piece of convincing evidence.
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#4

A Cumulative Case for Christianity
Wow! That's a lot of words to say absolutely nothing.

We get it, you're frightened of your meaningless existence, so you create a superhero to absolve you of  all your inherent insecurities, and to triumph over all the evil.

godders are so fucking pathetic.

You must be number 666 to traipse through here, and you all have the worn out, tired tale.

Go back to imagination land, Optimus Prime, needs help.
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#5

A Cumulative Case for Christianity
You are depending on a large number of extremely dubious looking premises. With such a collection you can come to any conclusion you want. The first one to jump out at me:
(08-22-2023, 01:33 PM)SteveII Wrote: Premise 2: Resurrected Jesus Witnessed by Many
The resurrection of Jesus is attested to by the eyewitness accounts of as many as 500 individuals...
I don't believe you have access to 500 eyewitness accounts of Jesus; and I'm highly skeptical that you have even one as I'm not aware of any contemporary sources for the character of Jesus. It seems you are using the Bible for some of these sources. I'm not aware of a single verse of the Bible that was written by anyone who met Jesus (in the flesh).
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#6

A Cumulative Case for Christianity
500 eyewitnesses? Name ONE! Provide a single QUOTE of one of those persons!
Miraculous effects? Provide evidence ONE of them occurred!
R.I.P. Hannes
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#7

A Cumulative Case for Christianity
You have raised self-delusion to an art form, stevie.

You should read Richard Carrier's "Why Am I Not A Christian."  He can explain "extraordinary evidence" in such terms that even a fool like you might understand it.

Your god is a preposterously extraordinary claim....and all you have to back it up is a bunch of shit in a hoary old book.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#8

A Cumulative Case for Christianity
(08-22-2023, 03:57 PM)rocinantexyz Wrote: You are depending on a large number of extremely dubious looking premises. With such a collection you can come to any conclusion you want. The first one to jump out at me:
(08-22-2023, 01:33 PM)SteveII Wrote: Premise 2: Resurrected Jesus Witnessed by Many
The resurrection of Jesus is attested to by the eyewitness accounts of as many as 500 individuals...
I don't believe you have access to 500 eyewitness accounts of Jesus; and I'm highly skeptical that you have even one as I'm not aware of any contemporary sources for the character of Jesus. A quick glance and it seems these sources are supposed to be in the Bible. I'm not aware of a single verse of the Bible that was written by anyone who met Jesus (in the flesh).

The books written by Peter (2), James (1) and John (4-5) would be NT books written by eyewitnesses. You have no way of knowing if the editors of Matthew, Mark, or John met Jesus or how much of those three books have the exact words of the apostle whose name they bear.
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#9

A Cumulative Case for Christianity
Fiction is fiction no matter when, or where it's written or whoever the author is.


Your nonsense has been spewed countless times. Your god, any god, is completely fictional.
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#10

A Cumulative Case for Christianity
(08-22-2023, 01:33 PM)SteveII Wrote: Inductive reasoning, distinct from deductive or abductive reasoning

You're not using any of those.  You're using a circular reasoning fallacy.  "It says so in the bible so it must be true"  

#6 is begging the question.  If everything existing in the universe needs a "first cause" and your god exists, what caused your god to exist? 

The rest of your post is scientific ignorance.
                                                         T4618
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#11

A Cumulative Case for Christianity
Quote:The books written by Peter (2), James (1) and John (4-5) would be NT books written by eyewitnesses. You have no way of knowing if the editors of Matthew, Mark, or John met Jesus or how much of those three books have the exact words of the apostle whose name they bear.


We have not a scrap off evidence that any of this happy horseshit existed in written form in the first century CE and damned little that any of it existed in the 2d.


[Image: Graph-of-NT-manuscripts.jpg]


No, Stevie.  Jesusism is a much later invention with the emphasis on the word "invention."
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#12

A Cumulative Case for Christianity
(08-22-2023, 01:42 PM)Dānu Wrote: Number 6 is an argument from ignorance.  The main problem is that even if we accepted that there aren't better explanations for these things, which there are, none of these things necessarily require a god.

I remember you not liking the ontological arguments. I think they do point out something though, if the idea of God is possible, that would include necessary. So, either God is impossible or exists - there is no in between.
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#13

A Cumulative Case for Christianity
(08-22-2023, 04:19 PM)SteveII Wrote:
(08-22-2023, 03:57 PM)rocinantexyz Wrote: You are depending on a large number of extremely dubious looking premises. With such a collection you can come to any conclusion you want. The first one to jump out at me:
I don't believe you have access to 500 eyewitness accounts of Jesus; and I'm highly skeptical that you have even one as I'm not aware of any contemporary sources for the character of Jesus. A quick glance and it seems these sources are supposed to be in the Bible. I'm not aware of a single verse of the Bible that was written by anyone who met Jesus (in the flesh).

The books written by Peter (2), James (1) and John (4-5) would be NT books written by eyewitnesses. You have no way of knowing if the editors of Matthew, Mark, or John met Jesus or how much of those three books have the exact words of the apostle whose name they bear.

Peter couldn't read or write.  He and John are called illiterate in Acts. There is no posibility that Peter wrote any of the stories atributed to him. They are written in a higly aristocratic style of Greek that would have been unknown to Peter.  He also couldn't have dictated the words to anyone since that would also take knowledge of the high end Greek language.
                                                         T4618
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#14

A Cumulative Case for Christianity
(08-22-2023, 04:19 PM)SteveII Wrote: The books written by Peter (2)...
Second sentence from Wikipedia - Authorship of the Petrine epistles (with 12 supporting references):

Quote:Most scholars today conclude that Peter the Apostle was not the author of the two epistles that are attributed to him and that they were written by two different authors.

Why should I believe you instead of Wikipedia?
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#15

A Cumulative Case for Christianity
Is this Charlie24 coming at us again as a different person?
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#16

A Cumulative Case for Christianity
(08-22-2023, 05:02 PM)rocinantexyz Wrote:
(08-22-2023, 04:19 PM)SteveII Wrote: The books written by Peter (2)...
Second sentence from Wikipedia - Authorship of the Petrine epistles (with 12 supporting references):

Quote:Most scholars today conclude that Peter the Apostle was not the author of the two epistles that are attributed to him and that they were written by two different authors.

Why should I believe you instead of Wikipedia?

Sorry, it has been years since I debated NT authors. Peter did not start out all that literate and so at best probably had help writing them in Greek. I'm not sure how you can tell the difference because that would change the use of word choices and grammar (textual criticism). Anyway, there are some scholars that think he did. Early church fathers accepted that he did (certainly 1 Peter). They do not contradict anything or offer anything novel, so you have to wonder the purpose of a different writer claiming to be Peter. If Peter just wrote the first one (which there is more support for), you have the same number of eyewitnesses writing in the NT.
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#17

A Cumulative Case for Christianity
(08-22-2023, 04:50 PM)SteveII Wrote:
(08-22-2023, 01:42 PM)Dānu Wrote: Number 6 is an argument from ignorance.  The main problem is that even if we accepted that there aren't better explanations for these things, which there are, none of these things necessarily require a god.

I remember you not liking the ontological arguments. I think they do point out something though, if the idea of God is possible, that would include necessary. So, either God is impossible or exists - there is no in between.

It's implicit in the definition of a necessary being that it is either all or nothing. This tells us nothing new.
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#18

A Cumulative Case for Christianity
(08-22-2023, 05:01 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(08-22-2023, 04:19 PM)SteveII Wrote: The books written by Peter (2), James (1) and John (4-5) would be NT books written by eyewitnesses. You have no way of knowing if the editors of Matthew, Mark, or John met Jesus or how much of those three books have the exact words of the apostle whose name they bear.

Peter couldn't read or write.  He and John are called illiterate in Acts. There is no posibility that Peter wrote any of the stories atributed to him. They are written in a higly aristocratic style of Greek that would have been unknown to Peter.  He also couldn't have dictated the words to anyone since that would also take knowledge of the high end Greek language.

You do realize that you are casting pearls before swine, D42?
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#19

A Cumulative Case for Christianity
(08-22-2023, 05:42 PM)SteveII Wrote:
(08-22-2023, 05:02 PM)rocinantexyz Wrote: Second sentence from Wikipedia - Authorship of the Petrine epistles (with 12 supporting references):


Why should I believe you instead of Wikipedia?

Sorry, it has been years since I debated NT authors. Peter did not start out all that literate and so at best probably had help writing them in Greek. I'm not sure how you can tell the difference because that would change the use of word choices and grammar (textual criticism). Anyway, there are some scholars that think he did. Early church fathers accepted that he did (certainly 1 Peter). They do not contradict anything or offer anything novel, so you have to wonder the purpose of a different writer claiming to be Peter. If Peter just wrote the first one (which there is more support for), you have the same number of eyewitnesses writing in the NT.

In Acts 4:13  Peter is described as "ἀγράμματοι" which translates to "illiterate." 

Both Peter and John were poor fisherman from the monoligual town of Galilee.  Fisherman in this area and druing this time were illiterate. 

The idea that all Hebrew boys were taught to read is Christian wishful thinking nonsense.   Illiteracy was upwards of 96% throughout Palestine.  As a matter of fact, the Talmud makes specific rules for so much of the male population being illiterate.

Quote: "In a city where only one person is able to read [from the Torah scroll] he reads all the prescribed sections, provided he sits down between the reading of one section and the next." 

There's no way on this planet that Peter wrote a damned thing.  Those texts were written by someone else after Peter died.
                                                         T4618
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#20

A Cumulative Case for Christianity
(08-22-2023, 05:57 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
(08-22-2023, 05:01 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Peter couldn't read or write.  He and John are called illiterate in Acts. There is no posibility that Peter wrote any of the stories atributed to him. They are written in a higly aristocratic style of Greek that would have been unknown to Peter.  He also couldn't have dictated the words to anyone since that would also take knowledge of the high end Greek language.

You do realize that you are casting pearls before swine, D42?

Yup, I know.  It's the same thing with Chucky-cheese in the sword thread.
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#21

A Cumulative Case for Christianity
(08-22-2023, 05:42 PM)SteveII Wrote:
(08-22-2023, 05:02 PM)rocinantexyz Wrote: [Why should I believe YOU instead of Wikipedia?]
Sorry, it has been years since I debated NT authors.
I'm still hoping for an answer to my question. You are under no obligation to answer it (of course); but if you won't, then you and I won't be ...debating anything.
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#22

A Cumulative Case for Christianity
(08-22-2023, 06:44 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(08-22-2023, 05:57 PM)Minimalist Wrote: You do realize that you are casting pearls before swine, D42?

Yup, I know.  It's the same thing with Chucky-cheese in the sword thread.



Angel


It can be fun, though.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#23

A Cumulative Case for Christianity
(08-22-2023, 04:50 PM)SteveII Wrote: I remember you not liking the ontological arguments. I think they do point out something though, if the idea of God is possible, that would include necessary. So, either God is impossible or exists - there is no in between.

That in itself is fallacious. Something conceptual can exist and be just as real and important to us than something that exist empirically. Just think about concept like law, rights, democracy, freedom, marriage, etc. God definitely exist as a conceptual being; where the "debate" lies is if God exists empirically. Of course there is no evidence for it and even some evidence of absence (as in we thought that elements of nature were explained by God's existence only to be proven wrong like Earth's biodiversity for example).

As for your first post

Premise 1 is just hearsay and legends.

Premise 2 is filled with historical inaccuracies and poor documentation. The religious texts as you know them were composed in the early 4th century and only fragments of them, potentially substantially different then than now (we have many evidence of modification to scriptures and pious frauds in the historical record). 

Premise 3 is fine

Premise 4 and 5 is purely anecdotal and lacks any way to make the difference between placebo effect and real supernatural effects and that's without delving into people confusing natural phenomenon with the supernatural like Saint Elmo fire. 

Premise 6-7 is begging the question

Premise 8 is basically assuming that 6 and 7 are true and a certain misunderstanding as confusing the universe constant as prescriptive laws (how something ought to work) instead of descriptive laws (what something is).

Premise 9 is categorically false and nonsense. The human mind is a model by treating as if it was real you are reifying. The human mind is simply an emergent property of the brain and dependent on it. Alter the brain and you alter the mind. There is no mind without a physical brain.

Premise 10 is also categorically nonsense and factually incorrect. 

Conclusion 1 is false due to poor historicity and downright false claims of historical accuracy. Conclusion 2 is evidence for the existence of religion not God. Since the existence of religious belief was never in question I don't know why it needs to be stated, but fair enough. Conclusion 3 shows a remarkably small and very surface level of knowledge towards naturalism and completely ignores non-theistic philosophical branches that deal with the same issues like pragmatism, idealism, nihilism, etc.
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#24

A Cumulative Case for Christianity
(08-22-2023, 06:49 PM)rocinantexyz Wrote:
(08-22-2023, 05:42 PM)SteveII Wrote: Sorry, it has been years since I debated NT authors.
I'm still hoping for an answer to my question. You are under no obligation to answer it (of course); but if you won't, then you and I won't be chatting/debating anything.

Which questions and why are those questions important to discuss (to you)? I can better answer if I understand the point you are making.
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#25

A Cumulative Case for Christianity
(08-22-2023, 04:00 PM)Deesse23 Wrote: 500 eyewitnesses? Name ONE! Provide a single QUOTE of one of those persons!
Miraculous effects? Provide evidence ONE of them occurred!

This was a rumor Paul heard 20 years after it supposedly happened.  

Very odd that out of those 500 people not one of them ever wrote any account of this earth shattering experience.  Nope, it's only through rumor that we hear about this  stuff.   

And, oh my, but isn't 500 a nice round number. Is Paul sure it wasn't 487 or was 500 the exact count.
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