Cleopatra was NOT Black and I am not a racist for saying this.

[Dancefortwo]

Bit of a rant here.

Not sure if this belongs in the current events category but anyway.

Jada Pinket Smith, the 'go slap em upside the head to protect my honor" gal from the Oscars, has produced a Netflix "historical documentary" on  Black African Queens, at least that's what she's calling it. She has a  Black "historical expert" who apparently claims Cleopatra was Black, to which one of the most renowned Egyptian archaeologists, Zahi Hawass said "NO, she was not Black. She was a Mascadonian Greek woman from the Mascadonian Ptolemy family."  He is really pissed about this. 

A few simple google searches shows contemporary coins struck while she was in power as a Greek woman with a rather large aqualine nose.




This is most likely a bust of her.  



She was not Black.   She did not look like this.



 

The problem with Jada Pinket Smith's re-write of history is that the anti-woke crowd has jumped all over this to justify their racist views.  It pisses me off when I find myself half agreeing with a bunch of stupid racists.  Jada Pinket Smith has made the plight of Black Americans worse for producing this nonsense and I think  has added to the Black and White divide. There are many Black African Queens that deserve to be known but Cleopatra was not one of the, she was Greek.   Apparently American Blacks have been told this lie for generations and think Cleopatra has always been "white-washed" by White historians.    

It should be noted that Black South Africans and people living on the African continent have always known Cleopatra was Greek and don't get upset about it one little bit.  So what happened to the American Black population that has caused this misunderstanding? Is it our education system or having been enslaved for over two centuries?   I have no idea. 



I wanted to add this.  I've seen several  productions of Shakespeare's Antony and Cleopatra with a Black woman playing Cleopatra and I have no problem with this because it's not a historical documentary.    It's a play.

[Szuchow]

Netflix had something to do with it, right? They fuck up everything they touch and devoid of any sensible ideas they try being "controversial" - outrage means that someone will talk about their newest garbage when best reaction would be just keeping silent and unsubscribing. Let them rot with their idiotic ideas.

ETA: As for African Americans, well, oppression does not make people better or wiser. They still can fell prey to any number of idiotic notions and be outraged over some inanity just as well as any other "race".

[epronovost]

Netflix and history don't mix. Most of their historical documentary are conspiracy theory related with "ancient civilisation" and alien bullshit instead of actual quality vulgarisation work. Then again, if they present an accurate historical portrait of Cleopatra VII despite getting her ethnicity wrong (Cleopatra is also frequently depicted in popular fiction as ethnically egyptian instead of Greek) it could still be somewhat salvageable. It's more important to get the action than the representation accurately in my opinion. I don't think, beside a few africanist conspiracy theorists, anybody genuinly believes Cleopatra VII was black or even Egyptian. The hint is in the name, she has one of the most Greek name you could get for a queen.

[Minimalist]

Cleopatra was "African" in the sense that she was born in Egypt which is in "Africa."  So were the Boers.  Big deal.  Her heritage was not only Greek but Macedonian.... who a lot of other Greeks looked down on!

Some of the (probably deliberate) confusion comes from the fact that in the mid 8th century c 750 BCE) kings from the Kingdom of Kush (Nubia) crossed the southern border of Egypt in either an invasion or perhaps a migration and began ruling parts of Upper Egypt and from there they tried to expand north.  There is no question that these Kushite kings were "black."  We have their art to back us up.  This period coincides with what is called the Third Intermediate Period of Egyptian history and, like the first two, represents a time of political chaos and economic decline in Egypt.  Egypt had been under the rule of non-native dynasties for quite some time.  The first we know of is Shoshenq (Shishak of biblical fame) who was a Libyan in the late 10th century so this had been going on for a while.  But there was constant political turmoil.  

Anyway, ultimately the Assyrians invaded Egypt from the north, rounded up Egyptian client kings, and moved against the Kushites and eventually expelled them.  They then set up a client state under Psamtik 1 who began the 26th Dynasty and began the practice of importing Greek mercenary hoplites from Asia Minor which the local, lightly armed, Egyptians had no answer for and who gradually made himself more and more independent of Assyrian oversight.  For the record, Psamtik's ( Psammetichus, in Latin )son, Necho, is allegedly the guy who whacked king "Josiah" of Jerusalem ( if you can believe anything in that fucking bible) before going on to get his ass-kicked by the Babylonians at Carchemish.  C'est la guerre!

Anyway, the re-establishment of native Egyptian rule in Egypt and the expulsion of the Kushites far pre-dates the arrival of the Ptolemaic Dynasty.  That's bad news for historical revisionists but since when has anyone ever let facts stand in the way of the tale they want to tell?

[Dancefortwo]

Cleopatra was "African" in the sense that she was born in Egypt which is in "Africa."  So were the Boers.  Big deal.  Her heritage was not only Greek but Macedonian.... who a lot of other Greeks looked down on!

Some of the (probably deliberate) confusion comes from the fact that in the mid 8th century c 750 BCE) kings from the Kingdom of Kush (Nubia) crossed the southern border of Egypt in either an invasion or perhaps a migration and began ruling parts of Upper Egypt and from there they tried to expand north.  There is no question that these Kushite kings were "black."  We have their art to back us up.  This period coincides with what is called the Third Intermediate Period of Egyptian history and, like the first two, represents a time of political chaos and economic decline in Egypt.  Egypt had been under the rule of non-native dynasties for quite some time.  The first we know of is Shoshenq (Shishak of biblical fame) who was a Libyan in the late 10th century so this had been going on for a while.  But there was constant political turmoil.  

Anyway, ultimately the Assyrians invaded Egypt from the north, rounded up Egyptian client kings, and moved against the Kushites and eventually expelled them.  They then set up a client state under Psamtik 1 who began the 26th Dynasty and began the practice of importing Greek mercenary hoplites from Asia Minor which the local, lightly armed, Egyptians had no answer for and who gradually made himself more and more independent of Assyrian oversight.  For the record, Psamtik's ( Psammetichus, in Latin )son, Necho, is allegedly the guy who whacked king "Josiah" of Jerusalem ( if you can believe anything in that fucking bible) before going on to get his ass-kicked by the Babylonians at Carchemish.  C'est la guerre!

Anyway, the re-establishment of native Egyptian rule in Egypt and the expulsion of the Kushites far pre-dates the arrival of the Ptolemaic Dynasty.  That's bad news for historical revisionists but since when has anyone ever let facts stand in the way of the tale they want to tell?

 

Kingdom of Kush (Nubia) crossed the southern border of Egypt in either an invasion or perhaps a migration and began ruling parts of Upper Egypt

Also maybe  part of the confusion has to do with American's ignorance of geography.  Lower and Upper Egypt are opposite of what people think.   Perhaps Black people in the US think Upper Egypt is next to the Mediterranian and Lower Egypt is closer to Sub Saharan Aftican area so the Kusites invasion overtook the entire Egyptian Empire.   I don't know.  Maybe that's the confusion.



The Kushites were indeed an incredible people and there should be more of their history taught in schools instead of just Egyptian.   There has certainly been a lot of whitewashing of history but sometimes not in the way people think.  Race wasn't even a thing then, at least not in the way it is today.

[Minimalist]

American ignorance of even modern geography is astonishing...let alone antiquity!

But you are right in that the Egyptians did not seem to make much of a distinction based on race.  This painting from the tomb of Seti I ( c 1300 BCE) shows various subject peoples of the empire paying homage to the pharaoh.  Note that the Nubians are not depicted in any way different from the others.  It is curious that the artist was more impressed by the different clothing styles!

[Dom]

American ignorance of even modern geography is astonishing...let alone antiquity!

But you are right in that the Egyptians did not seem to make much of a distinction based on race.  This painting from the tomb of Seti I ( c 1380 BCE) shows various subject peoples of the empire paying homage to the pharaoh.  Note that the Nubians are not depicted in any way different from the others.  It is curious that the artist was more impressed by the different clothing styles!

Lots of different kinds of birds in the writing. They must have been quite interested in birds.

[Minimalist]

They could make gods out of anything.

[Aegon]

I think it's funny to debate whether a historical figure is black... when the historical figure themselves predates the relatively modern racial categories of "white" and "black."

[Minimalist]

That's an interesting point and you have to think about the potential points of contact.  For Egypt, it was pretty easy.  The Nile was pretty much the source of anything and even though the cataracts hampered navigation they did not stop it. 

It is less apparent how/when the Greeks and Romans would have come into contact with the peoples of sub-saharan africa.

[abaris]

I think it's funny to debate whether a historical figure is black... when the historical figure themselves predates the relatively modern racial categories of "white" and "black."

I see it this way, it would be absurd, if a movie or series was made on MLK or Nelson Mandela, and the actor was white or asian.

This is OK with fictional characters, such as Bond. I would have loved it if Idris Elba would have played him, as the rumor would have it some years ago. But Cleopatra came from a Macedon line. She was Greek and certainly not sub Saharan African.

[Dancefortwo]

I think it's funny to debate whether a historical figure is black... when the historical figure themselves predates the relatively modern racial categories of "white" and "black."

I think it's silly too but Jada Pinket Smith is using her Cleopatra documentary for a modern political agenda instead of simply making an accurate historical documentary.  I haven't watched it but apparently the battle scenes are also historically way off.   She's claiming Cleopatra was a strong Black woman who has been whitewashed by historians for centuries so she went out and found an African American historian who agrees with her.   All it's done is make the divide between black and white people worse.  Racists quickly jumped on the bandwagon.   The whole thing is nuts.   The Egyptian archaeologists I mentioned above is so furious he's planning on suing her, although I doubt he could ever get to first base on that.   I guess it's the whole cultural appropriation thing going on today so the Greek/Macidonian folks are hopping mad and so are the Egyptians.

Holy shit, Jada!  Make a documentary on the Kushite Empire or the 14th century King Mansa Musi who is still considered the richest man who ever lived, and that included Bill Gates and Warren Buffet rolled into one.   






https://www.history.com/news/who-was-the...mansa-musa

[Minimalist]

People have agendas and if facts get in the way of those agendas well, that's too bad for the facts.

I suspect that Smith's effort here is more about her and less about Cleopatra.

[Dom]

Wow, I play a game called Sandrock, and it has a character named Musa who is the richest man in the world, and it even looks like him. I had no idea those developers actually drew that character from history. I'll have to pay attention and see if they did that with any of the other characters.

[Deesse23]

I think it's funny to debate whether a historical figure is black... when the historical figure themselves predates the relatively modern racial categories of "white" and "black."

I think it's silly too but Jada Pinket Smith is using her Cleopatra documentary for a modern political agenda instead of simply making an accurate historical documentary.  I haven't watched it but apparently the battle scenes are also historically way off.   She's claiming Cleopatra was a strong Black woman who has been whitewashed by historians for centuries so she went out and found an African American historian who agrees with her.   All it's done is make the divide between black and white people worse.  Racists quickly jumped on the bandwagon.   The whole thing is nuts.   The Egyptian archaeologists I mentioned above is so furious he's planning on suing her, although I doubt he could ever get to first base on that.   I guess it's the whole cultural appropriation thing going on today so the Greek/Macidonian folks are hopping mad and so are the Egyptians.

Holy shit, Jada!  Make a documentary on the Kushite Empire or the 14th century King Mansa Musi who is still considered the richest man who ever lived, and that included Bill Gates and Warren Buffet rolled into one.   






https://www.history.com/news/who-was-the...mansa-musa

I loved the part where the price of gold collapsed for years in entire North Africa, because of him, being on pilgrimmage to Mecca, handing out gold to everyone for free like there is no tomorrow.

[Minimalist]

The ancient Egyptian word for "gold" was "Nub."  Hence "Nubia," which was a major source of gold in antiquity.

[rocinantexyz]

A couple decades ago someone where I [worked] told us that Cleopatra was black. I said I thought she was a Ptolemy. At which point I was informed that the speaker had attended Cornell and that I had only attended a state college therefore I didn't know what I was talking about (which is true, I don't know shit about that time period).

About 15 years later I read a story about some crazy tenured professor who's been teaching that Cleopatra was black for decades to students. And of course; the article said this took place at Cornell.

[Thumpalumpacus]

When I was in college, there was a vocal minority at the national level claiming that Beethoven was black.

[Rhythmcs]

...well..the girl werent white, so that only leaves black, eh?

[Minimalist]

Hmmm...... along those lines.  This appeared on the BBC today.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-ea...gn=KARANGA

Egypt bans Dutch archaeologists over exhibit about black musicians

The Egyptians might be a tad hypersensitive but I don't see anything resembling a boombox in this 18th Dynasty tomb painting.

[Thumpalumpacus]

...well..the girl werent white, so that only leaves black, eh?

Thought his mom was Walloon?

[Szuchow]

[Rhythmcs]

The Egyptians might be a tad hypersensitive but I don't see anything resembling a boombox in this 18th Dynasty tomb painting.

Oh...you can play some real fuckin bangers on those instruments.

@Szuchow
LOL, reminds me of a joke from chappelle show - making fun of the last samurai. Believe it was Paul Mooney? "Last nxxxx on earth, starring tom hanks"

[Minimalist]

The whole issue comes under the heading of Afrocentrism - which is debunked in this book.

https://www.ucdavis.edu/news/afrocentris...holar-says

Afrocentrism More Myth Than History, Scholar Says

"The scholars who call themselves Afrocentrists have not written history in the strictest sense of the term; what they have produced is a therapeutic mythology designed to restore the self-esteem of black Americans by creating a past that never was," he writes.

In case anyone is wondering.... this is Professor Walker.

[adey67]

When I was in college, there was a vocal minority at the national level claiming that Beethoven was black.

Are you serious?  coz that's fucking mad as hell.