The News Gets Better and Better

[Thumpalumpacus]

So, half the population are no certain that god exists but only 7% affirm it.  Sounds like an awful lot of bet hedging going on.  I think there’s more closeted atheists than people realize.

I don't see agnosticism as "hedging one's bets". It is, after all, a rejection of positive belief in a god. It can also be a way-station on the road to atheism, as you allude to, sure. But it still represents a loss of blind faith, and that's important, it seems to me.

I see the precipitous drop in positive belief as being more important. Positive belief in America has dropped 20% (48% vs 60%) in just over a decade. That is significant, to my mind, and it shows religion in retreat.

Of course there are closeted atheists, and no doubt some of those are in the "not sure" camp for reasons other than actually not being sure.

[pattylt]

So, half the population are no certain that god exists but only 7% affirm it.  Sounds like an awful lot of bet hedging going on.  I think there’s more closeted atheists than people realize.

I don't see agnosticism as "hedging one's bets". It is, after all, a rejection of positive belief in a god. It can also be a way-station on the road to atheism, as you allude to, sure. But it still represents a loss of blind faith, and that's important, it seems to me.

I see the precipitous drop in positive belief as being more important. Positive belief in America has dropped 20% (48% vs 60%) in just over a decade. That is significant, to my mind, and it shows religion in retreat.

Of course there are closeted atheists, and no doubt some of those are in the "not sure" camp for reasons other than actually not being sure.

I agree with the large drop in positive belief being excellent news. But  Are the people given a choice between atheist and agnostic?  Is the 7% combining both?  

I need to find the survey and see how the questions are asked.  I’ve known people that say they are Christian when asked but haven’t seen the inside of a church in decades and are rather wish washy on god…it’s like they don’t believe but wish they could.  Just as there are cultural Jews that don’t believe in god but still consider themselves Jewish, I think more and more Christians are just cultural Christians.  They may go to church with mom at Christmas but never think of religion otherwise.  Their children may continue in the same vane for a bit or just reject it all and claim the atheist title.  Europe seems to have progressed to this faster than the US, but, we’re catching up.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I agree with the large drop in positive belief being excellent news. But  Are the people given a choice between atheist and agnostic?  Is the 7% combining both?  

From the excerpt I posted:

Not quite 50 percent of Americans say they have no doubt about the existence of God, according to the 2022 survey, released Wednesday by NORC, the University of Chicago research organization. As recently as 2008, the share of sure-believers topped 60 percent.

It is clear that if less than 50% have a positive belief in god, then more than 50% either do not have that positive belief, and of that, the 7% atheist is presumably a subset.

I need to find the survey and see how the questions are asked.  I’ve known people that say they are Christian when asked but haven’t seen the inside of a church in decades and are rather wish washy on god…it’s like they don’t believe but wish they could.  Just as there are cultural Jews that don’t believe in god but still consider themselves Jewish, I think more and more Christians are just cultural Christians.  They may go to church with mom at Christmas but never think of religion otherwise.  Their children may continue in the same vane for a bit or just reject it all and claim the atheist title.  Europe seems to have progressed to this faster than the US, but, we’re catching up.

The questionnaires can be read here: https://gss.norc.org/get-documentation/questionnaires

[Dom]

Seems pertinent to me:


https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-...inite-yes/

So, half the population are no certain that god exists but only 7% affirm it.  Sounds like an awful lot of bet hedging going on.  I think there’s more closeted atheists than people realize.

There always have been and likely are now a huge number of closeted atheists. In many areas of the rural country saying out loud that you are an atheist is still going to cause a stir and much unpleasantness, especially also from one's own family.

[Minimalist]

I don't see agnosticism as "hedging one's bets". It is, after all, a rejection of positive belief in a god. It can also be a way-station on the road to atheism, as you allude to, sure. But it still represents a loss of blind faith, and that's important, it seems to me.

I see the precipitous drop in positive belief as being more important. Positive belief in America has dropped 20% (48% vs 60%) in just over a decade. That is significant, to my mind, and it shows religion in retreat.

Of course there are closeted atheists, and no doubt some of those are in the "not sure" camp for reasons other than actually not being sure.

I agree with the large drop in positive belief being excellent news. But  Are the people given a choice between atheist and agnostic?  Is the 7% combining both?  

I need to find the survey and see how the questions are asked.  I’ve known people that say they are Christian when asked but haven’t seen the inside of a church in decades and are rather wish washy on god…it’s like they don’t believe but wish they could.  Just as there are cultural Jews that don’t believe in god but still consider themselves Jewish, I think more and more Christians are just cultural Christians.  They may go to church with mom at Christmas but never think of religion otherwise.  Their children may continue in the same vane for a bit or just reject it all and claim the atheist title.  Europe seems to have progressed to this faster than the US, but, we’re catching up.

The questions are here, Thump.

https://www.prri.org/wp-content/uploads/...-FINAL.pdf

[Fireball]

The wife filled out the '20 census. I didn't give any input, since I wasn't asked, so I'll bet she said that we're all Catholics. 3/5 are not.

[Minimalist]

And bad news for catholick fucks, too.

Well.... who wants to listen to some pervert priests talk about "children?"


https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2021/04...ing-going/

aturday, April 17, 2021
As Holy Week got underway this year, many people were surprised to learn of a new Gallup survey showing fewer than half of all Americans now identify with any particular church, synagogue, or mosque. But for those who’ve followed the rise of America’s “Nones,” and the corresponding decline in religious identity, this was old news.
Actually, self-identified Catholics didn’t come out – relatively – all that badly in the Gallup numbers, with 58 percent still identifying with a church while the overall figure for Americans was 47 percent. But any comfort Catholics might find in that vanishes when one realizes that the new figure is a drop of 18 percent from the 76 percent that Gallup reported for Catholics two decades ago.
In any event, these numbers need to be seen in their larger context. Here it seems fair to say that, while American Catholics have lately been looking down their noses at German Catholics, they’d do well to look at themselves in the mirror. For as the Germans have paraded noisily down their “synodal path” toward schism, we Americans have been slipping quietly into something approaching remnant status.
Take Sunday Mass attendance. Back in 1970, reports the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate, 54.9 percent of American Catholics went to Mass every Sunday. A half-century later, on the eve of the pandemic, that had fallen to 21.1 percent. And now, the Center for Church Management at Villanova University projects an attendance rate in the neighborhood of 12 percent by next year or the year after.

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

[Cranky]

If you were baptized Catholic, the Church still believes you're Catholic even if you are no longer practicing or believing. Before the change to Canon Law in 1983 you could formally apostatize but that's been abrogated. Now you can't even do that. The best you can hope for is to get off the parish "let's hit him up for more money" list.

However even if you still could legally (according to Canon Law) apostatize, I'd hesitate to do so because that would just be giving that shit show some legitimacy by almost asking for permission to leave. I've just gone off into the mist. Stopped going to Mass, resigned from a committee I was on for "personal reasons", and stopped frequenting the religious order of which I was a lay member. I still have some personal affection for a couple of friends still in the Church who are otherwise kind and intelligent people in spite of their glaring blind spot. And also a gay friend who decided to walk away from the Church as well (smart man!).

One thing I struggle with is why humans evolved to need religious belief in the first place. There must be a reason but I'm at a loss to explain it. I do think however, that our knowledge has reached a tipping point, and we are slowly evolving as a species into a post-religious world. There will inevitably be some backsliding for some folks for whom this tickles their insecurities. Darwin will eventually fix that but it might take another few hundred years or so.

I've seen surveys on why people leave the Church. People always mention trivial stuff like not liking the pastor, having a gripe with this or that Church teaching (usually relating to sex!), not enough social interaction like coffee hour after Mass, but rarely do they state the obvious: stories about virgin births, flying lords and prophets, virgins being beamed up to heaven, etc., no longer are believable in a scientific and technological age. And priests and the hierarchy trying to tell you how to live your sexuality have exactly zero credibility when so many of them are using your kids for their own sexual gratification, and covering it up afterwards by shifting these bastards around to new parishes where they find no shortage of new kids to abuse.

What's worse than religion? Religions fighting each other trying to prove whose flying prophet is the true one...

[Thumpalumpacus]

I agree with the large drop in positive belief being excellent news. But  Are the people given a choice between atheist and agnostic?  Is the 7% combining both?  

I need to find the survey and see how the questions are asked.  I’ve known people that say they are Christian when asked but haven’t seen the inside of a church in decades and are rather wish washy on god…it’s like they don’t believe but wish they could.  Just as there are cultural Jews that don’t believe in god but still consider themselves Jewish, I think more and more Christians are just cultural Christians.  They may go to church with mom at Christmas but never think of religion otherwise.  Their children may continue in the same vane for a bit or just reject it all and claim the atheist title.  Europe seems to have progressed to this faster than the US, but, we’re catching up.

The questions are here, Thump.

https://www.prri.org/wp-content/uploads/...-FINAL.pdf

Appreciate the helping hand, bud ... my Google-Fu seems to be on the fritz.

[pattylt]

Min, the PDF showed a lot of the questions asked and responses but not the ones that determine their religion, church habits, etc. still, it was a fascinating read. Most of us Americans are pretty level headed and compassionate. The questions were a good cross section of every issue we hear about daily. Why so many republicans are in office is still baffling to me…other than gerrymandering.

[Dom]

One thing I struggle with is why humans evolved to need religious belief in the first place.  There must be a reason but I'm at a loss to explain it.  I do think however, that our knowledge has reached a tipping point, and we are slowly evolving as a species into a post-religious world.  There will inevitably be some backsliding for some folks for whom this tickles their insecurities.  Darwin will eventually fix that but it might take another few hundred years or so.

Easy explanations for general life occurrences, stuff that scares people and stuff they had no factual explanation for. Also, entertaining storytelling, community, singing, dancing.... 

As we uncover more and more facts, religion is less and less needed, but some of the needs remain.

[Cranky]

So, half the population are no certain that god exists but only 7% affirm it.  Sounds like an awful lot of bet hedging going on.  I think there’s more closeted atheists than people realize.

There always have been and likely are now a huge number of closeted atheists. In many areas of the rural country saying out loud that you are an atheist is still going to cause a stir and much unpleasantness, especially also from one's own family.

I would have to say that in my last few years of Catholicism I was a closeted agnostic leaning towards atheism.  I just could no longer suspend my disbelief regarding the dogmas.  I had no fear of proclaiming it though, that wasn't the reason for staying closeted. I live in Québec and being Catholic here is not something you like to proclaim from the rooftops.  There are many parallels between why the Church is dying in Québec and in Ireland, two previously heavily Catholic places and the Church here is blamed, rightfully so, for many social ills.

My main reason for being closeted was that I had so much invested in participating in the Church at about as much as one can at the lay level.  I knew leaving would leave a big hole in my life, and it did.  However I've found better things now to fill that hole (that also help keep me physically fit in my dotage...).

Plus there was just good old fashioned embarrassment at admitting I was wrong...

[pattylt]

I’m often surprised at the many atheists that admit to feeling as though they had a hole in their life by leaving their faith. I shouldn’t be surprised but many admit to embarrassment or feeling lied to. For some, the fear of hell was a real issue to deal with. For others, the loss of community. Keeping one’s atheism a secret is easy to understand but it’s a crying shame. Perhaps as more leave, more understanding and acceptance will arise.

Perhaps we atheists should do more to figure out how to ease the transition. The Satanic Temple and atheist church might fill a need for a few but I don’t think those are an answer. Some atheists get more active politically. I just hope that as more become “nones”, we will have structures in place for those first struggling with leaving faith behind. Once someone decides they’re an atheist/agnostic, the rest should be easy…and happy.

[Minimalist]

Gerrymandering IS the reason.

[Cavebear]

Councils Of Consolidation...  Religions have gone to war over minor details, but they have also negotiated some differences.

I think major Protestant Theisms could easily whitewash some details in order to join together in sufficient numbers to survive (though I actually hope they do not).  I'm not the most expertise person about christian theisms, but are Trinitarians all that different from Catholics (minus the Pope)?  Are all those tiny local Protestant churches all that different?  Is the Anglican Church different from Episcopalians?  Lutheran and Methodist theists both seem to follow "the bible only".

Each of those could negotiate some slight differences and join to continue.  As I said, I hope they don't.  I would love to see all theisms vanish.  But they could start merging for scammy self-survival...

Yeah, I don't think the separate denominations are ready to merge. United Methodists have been splitting off over the last few years. Anglican churches are doing the same. Lutherans did a decade ago. Maybe the southern anti-LGBTQ+ churches could find common ground & the pro-LGBTQ+ churches could, but none of them have a good track record. Nobody wants to put up with a bunch of Pentecostals joining them.

Yes there are divisions. But to survive, I suspect they will have to rejoin. But I hope they don't. The weaker they get, the less influence they have in politicals and society.

[Thumpalumpacus]

And this was in my news feed this morning:

Americans’ belief in God, the devil and other spiritual entities has fallen to a new low, according to a Gallup poll released on Thursday.

Seventy-four percent of Americans said they believe in God, while 69 percent said they believe in angels and 67 percent said they believe in heaven, the poll found. Slightly smaller shares — 59 percent and 58 percent — said they believe in hell and the devil.

Belief in all five spiritual entities has fallen between 3-5 points since 2016, the last time that Gallup polled Americans on the topic.

Since the pollster first began collecting survey data on the subject more than two decades ago, belief in God and heaven has dropped 16 points, while belief in hell has fallen 12 points and belief in the devil and angels has decreased by 10 points.

https://thehill.com/changing-america/res...ow-gallup/

[Dom]

And this was in my news feed this morning:

Americans’ belief in God, the devil and other spiritual entities has fallen to a new low, according to a Gallup poll released on Thursday.

Seventy-four percent of Americans said they believe in God, while 69 percent said they believe in angels and 67 percent said they believe in heaven, the poll found. Slightly smaller shares — 59 percent and 58 percent — said they believe in hell and the devil.

Belief in all five spiritual entities has fallen between 3-5 points since 2016, the last time that Gallup polled Americans on the topic.

Since the pollster first began collecting survey data on the subject more than two decades ago, belief in God and heaven has dropped 16 points, while belief in hell has fallen 12 points and belief in the devil and angels has decreased by 10 points.

https://thehill.com/changing-america/res...ow-gallup/

Such polls always make me feel good. Any kind of raise in skeptics tends to do that. Skeptics tend to be fooled by increasingly fewer things, and there seem to be more and more skeptics. It's a good thing.

[Szuchow]

And this was in my news feed this morning:

Americans’ belief in God, the devil and other spiritual entities has fallen to a new low, according to a Gallup poll released on Thursday.

Seventy-four percent of Americans said they believe in God, while 69 percent said they believe in angels and 67 percent said they believe in heaven, the poll found. Slightly smaller shares — 59 percent and 58 percent — said they believe in hell and the devil.

Belief in all five spiritual entities has fallen between 3-5 points since 2016, the last time that Gallup polled Americans on the topic.

Since the pollster first began collecting survey data on the subject more than two decades ago, belief in God and heaven has dropped 16 points, while belief in hell has fallen 12 points and belief in the devil and angels has decreased by 10 points.

https://thehill.com/changing-america/res...ow-gallup/

It's good news but on the other hand it is still sad that belief in so obvious bullshit is held by so many.

[Minimalist]

Baby steps, my friend.  Baby steps.

Humanity has been stupid for a very long time.